Calls to boycott Arizona are spreading like a virus

[jpccusa]

he has lived there for many years, so of course follows this much more closely than I do.

He said the "suspicious stop" is definitely a secondary thing - they have to stop you for something else, first - broken taillight, speeding, etc. They can't question you if you are innocently walking down the street just because they don't like your looks. Of course, there may be abuse, but probably no more so than for any other law.

He also said that they were careful to write it to mirror the Federal law. He said that in effect, it just says that the Federal immigration law is now also Az law. That is why they think it will stand a challenge. He says it isn't any tougher or looser than the Federal law - it is just that Az plans to enforce it, unlike the Feds. (DISCLAIMER - neither of us are attorneys, and neither of us read the law itself - his info is based on his accumulation of info garnered from news reports. Of course, we KNOW that they are always factual and unbiased, lol!).

IF it is true that it is just a state adopting the same regs as the Feds, then I don't see why people would complain. But unless Florida proposes to do the same, I doubt that I will actually read the law since it is in another state and I can't do anything about it, anyway. I will take a wait and see approach. Maybe it will turn out to be a good thing - I don't know yet.

Maybe this will move the Feds to finally decide to stop butting into state issues so much (like anti pet laws, medical marijuana issues, marriage laws, etc), and spend our money and their time actually doing the job the Constitution demands them to do at the border. Stranger things have happened...or not...

Your last paragraph is with what I agree the most.

The strange part is a state trying to mirror a Federal law, while everyone knows, including the state trying to mirror it, that the entire immigration system needs to be reworked. Enforcement only will take them nowhere. That is also not solving the border issue. This has been my point since my OP. This law has created (or will create) a burden for the entire state and the effectiveness of it is questionable. My friends at the hotel business already started to see the changes.

Too bad the Cali folks didn't take things in their own state as serious as they are AZ business. *cough* state bankruptcy. *cough*

Oh yes, the typical "let's blame illegal immigration on our recession issues." I have heard that one before... "All those darn illegals that caused California's house market to crash!"
Laughable! :laugh01:

As for California invading Texas... Even though I know it was said in jest... THAT is part of the problem... many people who vote "blue" in Blue states are LEAVING those Blue states BECAUSE that which they voted for has gone awry and are starting to "infect" the population centers in Red states... I find this to be a BIG problem. I think they should stay right where they are and suffer the consequences for their voting records.

Speaking for myself only and not the general population of blue states... I have no plans on leaving CA any time soon. :nope:

 

[wade]

Your last paragraph is with what I agree the most.

The strange part is a state trying to mirror a Federal law, while everyone knows, including the state trying to mirror it, that the entire immigration system needs to be reworked. Enforcement only will take them nowhere. That is also not solving the border issue. This has been my point since my OP. This law has created (or will create) a burden for the entire state and the effectiveness of it is questionable. My friends at the hotel business already started to see the changes.

I don't think the public in general will be quite as reactionary are you. They will have a big rally in LA and Barbara Streisand will sing and there will be lots of close ups Mexican women with children in their arms crying. But then it will be forgotten and Arizona's economy will be just fine.

Oh yes, the typical "let's blame illegal immigration on our recession issues." I have heard that one before... "All those darn illegals that caused California's house market to crash!"
Laughable! :laugh01:

That isn't even close to what he said. He simply said that maybe the good people in California should have a rally to worry about their own problems instead of Arizona's problems.

Speaking for myself only and not the general population of blue states... I have no plans on leaving CA any time soon. :nope:

I hope there is not an exodus from the blue states. If the federal gov has any extra money for boarder patrol I have a suggestion for where he might put it.

 

[Drizzt80]

I feel like after presenting facts people just drop it, so I don't know if I should consider that as silent acceptance or complete dismissal of my post. Are my points dismissible or too hard to rebut?

but I presented other points that were never contested or agreed with (my answers to danielle, Outcast, tsst, Brent, are all examples of that).

I'm sorry, did you think my "real world" life and job takes a back seat to internet discussions and debates? Sorry I didn't answer you immediately. Sorry I didn't answer your post as fast as you thought I should answer it. :shrugs: Anyway, you should read the links you post that you try to argue your point with:

You said:

BTW, many illegal immigrants do pay taxes and never receive anything back (in case they are due).
Also, many illegal immigrants never use public healthcare. Many have insurance through employers or private.

Your link said: (http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/)

no consensus exists. The Urban Institute put the net national cost at $1.9 billion in 1992; a Rice University professor, whose work the Urban Institute criticized, said it was $19.3 billion in 1993. More recently, a 2007 report by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office examined 29 reports on state and local costs published over 15 years in an attempt to answer this question. CBO concluded that most of the estimates determined that illegal immigrants impose a net cost to state and local governments but "that impact is most likely modest."
. . . and . . .
CIS estimated that welfare payments to illegal immigrant households averaged $1,040 per household in 2001, mainly Medicaid "on behalf of their U.S.-born children." But the report did not attempt to come up with a total for all such households.
. . . and . . .
But the CIS report actually put the costs of food stamp, WIC and free school lunch programs to "illegal alien households" at $1.9 billion
. . . and . . .
That doesn’t include any potential costs to state or local governments,

I stopped reading because you obviously didn't even read your source to begin with AND I've got other things more important right now. Modest or not, that's all money paid to illegal persons in this country. Just because you think you can claim """some""" have paid taxes and """some""" haven't gotten free money. Those numbers indicate there is a significant amount of money paid to illegals. So, now that means I can steal TV's from WalMart AND get paid for it by the government. Thanks for the link! :nope:

D80

 

[jpccusa]

I don't think the public in general will be quite as reactionary are you. They will have a big rally in LA and Barbara Streisand will sing and there will be lots of close ups Mexican women with children in their arms crying. But then it will be forgotten and Arizona's economy will be just fine.

I am not being reactionary. I am being precautionary.

And I really hope you are right (Barbara Streisand singing, close ups of Mexican women with children in their arms crying, AND that AZ's economy will be fine).

That isn't even close to what he said. He simply said that maybe the good people in California should have a rally to worry about their own problems instead of Arizona's problems.

My English may have tricked me in this one...

I'm sorry, did you think my "real world" life and job takes a back seat to internet discussions and debates? Sorry I didn't answer you immediately. Sorry I didn't answer your post as fast as you thought I should answer it. :shrugs:

No need to apologize. I understand sometimes we have more important stuff to do than to debate our political points of view on a hobby forum.

Anyway, you should read the links you post that you try to argue your point with:

I did read it. Both of the links, not only this one you are commenting on.

You said:

Originally Posted by jpccusa View Post
BTW, many illegal immigrants do pay taxes and never receive anything back (in case they are due).
Also, many illegal immigrants never use public healthcare. Many have insurance through employers or private.

Your link said: (http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/)

I stopped reading because you obviously didn't even read your source to begin with AND I've got other things more important right now. Modest or not, that's all money paid to illegal persons in this country. Just because you think you can claim """some""" have paid taxes and """some""" haven't gotten free money. Those numbers indicate there is a significant amount of money paid to illegals. So, now that means I can steal TV's from WalMart AND get paid for it by the government. Thanks for the link! :nope:

D80

Well, perhaps you shouldn't have stopped reading it. The link is still a valid source of knowledge. Besides, you asked for factual proof that many illegals pay taxes, and I gave it to you (did you see the graph on the other link you are not mentioning here?).

The bits and pieces you cut and paste together come from anti-immigration groups reports (FAIR and CIS) that are considered "ethnic separatists".
This was an interview from yesterday with FAIR's president.
I don't know about you, but I try not to use information from those kind of racist groups. That may have led you to believe I didn't read my source links before I posted here. I was just filtering good information from garbage.
As this source link concluded, "Published studies vary widely but put the cost to government at a small fraction of that total."
Unfortunately, to be an unbiased website, you have to publish studies from both sides of the debate, even if some come from racist groups.

Again, all I was proving was that "many illegal immigrants pay taxes."

You are welcome for the link. I hope many more will find it useful and informative. The trick is to filter good from bad information in them.

 

[wade]

JP that was a very polite response. I disagree with you but you are very polite.

 

[Lovin2act]

Agreed. It is much appreciated and is a breath of fresh air to see. He has my respect for being able to argue in a very civil way

 

[Buzzard]

Yes, he is arguing in a civil manner, and thats what this country is so great at, freedom to do so. But this country also has laws and rules inwhich its citizens and guests must follow. People who break these laws are sent to jail and so forth. If an illegal immigrant is in the country, then it is breaking the law. The feds are doing very little about it, so AZ stepped it up and said the legal people of this state want this... Poof the new law was signed in and there you go. If your caught doing something out of the norm and an officer asks you for ID and finds that there is cause to check your background then so be it. If your an illegal, then your busted. Just yesterday they rounded up 52 illegal immigrants in AZ at 1 time. (It was on the news here) 52..... we are not talking 1 or 2. If it is that bad in just that 1 area, I can only imagine what the rest of the state is like....

 

[wade]

Why have I aways thought JP was a girl. I hope I haven't flirted with you JP.

 

[jpccusa]

JP that was a very polite response. I disagree with you but you are very polite.

Agreed. It is much appreciated and is a breath of fresh air to see. He has my respect for being able to argue in a very civil way

Yes, he is arguing in a civil manner, and thats what this country is so great at, freedom to do so. But this country also has laws and rules inwhich its citizens and guests must follow. People who break these laws are sent to jail and so forth. If an illegal immigrant is in the country, then it is breaking the law. The feds are doing very little about it, so AZ stepped it up and said the legal people of this state want this... Poof the new law was signed in and there you go. If your caught doing something out of the norm and an officer asks you for ID and finds that there is cause to check your background then so be it. If your an illegal, then your busted. Just yesterday they rounded up 52 illegal immigrants in AZ at 1 time. (It was on the news here) 52..... we are not talking 1 or 2. If it is that bad in just that 1 area, I can only imagine what the rest of the state is like....

Thank you guys. I don't see a reason to be rude or to ruffle some feathers just because we have different points of view on the same issue. I respect each one of you, and even though we may not agree on this one in particular, we agree in many, MANY others.

I don't mind sharing my thoughts and listening to other people's. Sometimes in debates we are presented with points of views that we never thought about, and that expands our horizon, and that's why I engage in many of them.

:cheers:

Why have I aways thought JP was a girl. I hope I haven't flirted with you JP.

Nope, I don't remember you ever being flirtatious towards me Wade. Whew!!!

And I just got this in the email today

 

[wade]

JP you're cartoon is cute.

Here is the other side of the coin.

PHOENIX - A veteran sheriff's deputy was shot and wounded Friday after encountering a group of suspected illegal immigrants who apparently had been hauling bales of marijuana along a major smuggling corridor in the Arizona desert- a violent episode that comes amid a heated national debate over immigration.

"Over the past 12 months we've seen an increase in the amount of drugs, and an increase in violence that has been going on in this particular corridor," Villar told KPNX.

"We've had increasing concerns in this area about being outmanned and outgunned, and unfortunately this evening, this is coming true," she added.

Arizona Deputy Shot

 

[starsevol]

Agreed. It is much appreciated and is a breath of fresh air to see. He has my respect for being able to argue in a very civil way

I agree! Even though JP's POV is the "wrong" one, he is very polite and reasonable and I have alot of respect for him.

JP, LOVE the cartoon!

 

[Drizzt80]

Again, all I was proving was that "many illegal immigrants pay taxes."

So am I guilty of putting words in your mouth? I guess I made the assumption you're trying to say it's legal to be an illegal alien because some of them pay taxes. If that was the case, I can't agree, at all.

Are you able to spare me the time? I can read your links in more depth later this week, but what specific taxes are you, or the articles, talking about them paying? Income tax?? It's obvious they'd pay sales tax on items they purchase.

D80

 

[ghosthousecorns]

It does make sense to me that they (illegal aliens) would pay taxes when I try to think like somebody who is in the country illegally and wants to stay out of trouble to avoid getting deported. Let's say you are illegal and you want to work here- so you buy a fake ID or SS# and then what do you do if you came here to work? You use it to get a job here (let's not naively assume that every minimum wage or manual labor job here is filled by a legal U.S. citizen, those fake papers are definitely obtainable) so now you have an ID and you find a job, you are going to get a paycheck - it isn't going to be different than anyone else's paycheck - it will have taxes withheld like just any legally here worker that gets a paycheck. So yes illegals can end up paying taxes and many won't file for the returns because they don't want to call attention to themselves. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that this is what happens.

 

[jpccusa]

According to this website "illegal immigration may be a "problem" and have costs, but they are not going to sink our national economy, or any individual state for that matter"
More can be read here.

And although I do support an immigration reform, I don't support "illegals coming in and just TAKING whatever they want - jobs, money, healthcare" although they will pay for it once the immigration reform comes through.

BTW, many illegal immigrants do pay taxes and never receive anything back (in case they are due).
Also, many illegal immigrants never use public healthcare. Many have insurance through employers or private.

So am I guilty of putting words in your mouth? I guess I made the assumption you're trying to say it's legal to be an illegal alien because some of them pay taxes. If that was the case, I can't agree, at all.

Are you able to spare me the time? I can read your links in more depth later this week, but what specific taxes are you, or the articles, talking about them paying? Income tax?? It's obvious they'd pay sales tax on items they purchase.

D80

I didn't say it is legal to be an illegal immigrant because some of them pay taxes. When I said some pay taxes, I was trying to rebut ArpeggioAngel's generalization claim that "illegal immigrants don't pay taxes as the rest of us do." I was just pointing it out that some do.

And sure, take your time to read and analyze the links. That would be a good bump for the thread.

As for the "taxes," I was referring to income taxes.

 

[wade]

OK, as an employer I have to have all of my employees file an I9 form. Every employer in the nation is required to do it and the I9 has to be kept on file for 7 years after the person leaves you employment. Basically the I9 was intended to sort out illegal workers. You have to show identification that proves you are a citizen or at least legal. There are several ways to do it but most commonly it is a valid drivers license and a SS card. You need two form of ID. You can also use a Resident Alien card, a birth certificate, Military ID. I can't think of all of them right now but there are several ways to do it. I have stacks of I9 forms that I have had employees fill out over the years. Along with each one I also have photo copies of the ID they presented to me.

If everyone is on the up and up then all employees in America would have to go through that process. The down side is that in the 15 or so years since this became a requirement, I have never once been checked by anyone from the government to see if I was doing it. I have done it because it is simple and I don't hire illegals. Another down side as Beth pointed out, fake IDs are readily available. I think they have them for sale in convenience stores all along the boarder.

The point is that employers like me go through that process and get the necessary documentation from all of their employees. I then withhold Federal and State income tax from their checks and I withhold and match their SS and Medicare taxes. So those people if they are illegal and have fake ID are paying taxes.

Many, Many, employers do not do that. They hire and pay their employees under the table, both legal and illegal employees. In doing so they save the payroll taxes the employer has to pay out of his pocket and they pay the employees less on the grounds that they are not withholding taxes. Those people do not pay into the system in any way.

Again, there is a system in place that is being ignored. If I knew for sure I was going to be audited every few years and would be put in jail if I didn't have I9 forms on file, you can be sure that I would have them. That in itself would eliminate many of the jobs the illegals seek. But as usual the federal gov has set in place a system and then forgot about it.

If the government would crack down on people who employ illegals and put them in jail, there would be considerably fewer jobs available for illegals. Again, it is against the law to hire illegals, but now body cares.

If the federal government would do so undercover stings and get rid of the fake ID.....
If the federal government would put some man power on the boarder......

Right now our economy is down and employment is scarce. The construction industry is in the toilet. Nobody is hiring, everyone is laying off.

Hey, did you notice that all the Mexican restaurants in town have gone broke? What happened to all those Mexican men that used to play soccer in the park on Sunday. They all went home. Wonder of Wonders.

 

[susang]

Many, Many, employers do not do that. They hire and pay their employees under the table, both legal and illegal employees. In doing so they save the payroll taxes the employer has to pay out of his pocket and they pay the employees less on the grounds that they are not withholding taxes. Those people do not pay into the system in any way.

I'm staying out of the border war.
Just a thought about what Wade is saying, many people work under the table, not just undocumented workers. People on SDI, welfare... I'm not saying it is right just that they aren't all non-caucasion.
Not all fake ID's are bought to work, some many are bought to allow underage people to drink. Not all drug smugglers are from south of the border and not all users are either.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Another down side as Beth pointed out, fake IDs are readily available.

If you meant my post it's Jen, not Beth

If the government would crack down on people who employ illegals and put them in jail, there would be considerably fewer jobs available for illegals. Again, it is against the law to hire illegals, but now body cares.

Again. a lot of people don't know they hired illegals because they have those fake papers that look real. They are in the system paying taxes that are withheld from their paycheck just like my paycheck or most people's.
But yes there should be some kind of repercussions to someone that is caught picking up an undocumented worker like at Home Depot parking lot or something. These Americans are also commiting a crime and when it is someone who runs a business and does this they are avoiding paying the workman's comp insurance that other employers have to.

What happened to all those Mexican men that used to play soccer in the park on Sunday. They all went home. Wonder of Wonders.

So they are illegal aliens just because they were playing soccer in the park?

 

[wade]

I'm sorry Jen, yes it was your post I was talking about.

As the law stands now an employer has to ask for the ID and make a reasonable attempt to make sure it is not a forgery. As long as the employer makes that effort he has satisfied the law. It is the employers that don't make that attempt that I am mad at.

So they are illegal aliens just because they were playing soccer in the park?

Jen, don't put those words in my mouth. You know that is not what is said or meant.

The point of my comment is that the Mexican community where I live has become noticeably smaller since the job market has gone in the toilet. It is obvious to everyone that the draw for them to come here was jobs and not our mild winter.

We have many legal Mexicans here. Two of them work for me. (Jen the wife of one of the guys who works for me is from Peru) They are great people and a great part of our community. Most of the ones I know are first or second generation Americans but we have some old families here that have been here for many generations.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I'm sorry Jen, yes it was your post I was talking about.

As the law stands now an employer has to ask for the ID and make a reasonable attempt to make sure it is not a forgery. As long as the employer makes that effort he has satisfied the law. It is the employers that don't make that attempt that I am mad at.



Jen, don't put those words in my mouth. You know that is not what is said or meant.

The point of my comment is that the Mexican community where I live has become noticeably smaller since the job market has gone in the toilet. It is obvious to everyone that the draw for them to come here was jobs and not our mild winter.

We have many legal Mexicans here. Two of them work for me. (Jen the wife of one of the guys who works for me is from Peru) They are great people and a great part of our community. Most of the ones I know are first or second generation Americans but we have some old families here that have been here for many generations.

Thanks for claryfying wade.

Looking back at my post yes I did put words in your mouth. I meant to say Do you think they were Mexicans, not illegal aliens. Because the game of soccer is very popular in every country of central and South America, they could have been from some other place.

But really it's that little "Wonder of Wonders" comment that bugs me. Why would you be happy they went home if you didn't think they were illegal aliens and it's a sign that the economy is bad.

 

[wade]

The point I was trying to make was that the illegals were here to work. When those jobs went away they went away. If the gov would enforce the laws already in place so that employers were less likely to hire illegals, the illegals would no longer have a reason to come here.

Crack down on employers that are not playing buy the rules. Crack down on the people making fake ID. And put some teeth in the Boarder Patrol. The system is already in place. We don't need new laws we simply need to enforce what we have.