Calls to boycott Arizona are spreading like a virus

[Dinah]

I suggest a macroeconomics class, with all due respect. It really helped me to understand the complex dynamics of our economy better.

I am sorry if I made it seem like you are against foreigners. That was not what I meant. What I mean is that to start enforcing tougher laws, on everyone but specially on illegal immigrants as in AZ, would send the wrong message about Americans (not only you) across the globe.



I am afraid the "can do people" would be making a big mistake, so with all due respect, I couldn't possibly get out of the way.



I already addressed the issue about illegal immigrants not being criminals enough, but let me say this, they were never judged by a criminal judge and found to be guilty.

Are you sure it helped you understand? Because if supply is high (workers) and demand is low (number of jobs) it would be some crazy math for you to show me that somehow adding more supply (workers) is what will fix the problem

I don't especially care what the globe thinks about me

Well that is your opinion then, but don't call it impossible or too hard because there are plenty of motivated can do people who can find a way. If you are against it because you think it is wrong then stand up with a back bone and say what you mean, don't give some cope out excuse like well thats a hard thing to do.

If you break the law it is a crime, if you commit a crime you are a criminal. You can call them something nicer if you like but I am going to stick with the plain simple truth and call them what they are criminals. Sure they can be nice educated people who have never committed any other crime in their lives but they are still criminals. And in order to work here they have to continue to commit crimes like fraud so they can get a SS to provide to an employer.

I can and do; my sister with a high school education was laid off. She is an insurance agent the office she worked for closed. By the time the office closed she had been offered jobs with four insurance companies and two retail companies. She went out every day and went to one retail company every day until they hired her. My grand-daughter who is 18 got a job with no previous experience; in a home improvement store and it took her 2 weeks. As I stated I live in the Pacific Northwest, very high unemployment. so boohoo for you

I never asked anyone to boo hoo for me. Its true I did kind of expect to be believed because I am being honest but I know you don't know me so I guess I was expecting to much. But what I am saying to you is true. We woke up M-F and put on our professional clothes and went to businesses after business and filled out applications and handed out resumes. Then at the end of the day we came home and filled out more applications online. On the weekends we went out again to places we knew would be open. We attended every job fair that was anywhere near our community. After the first month we had exhausted all of the first picks but we didn't stop, we applied to wait tables, landscape, babysit, clean hotel rooms, field work, retail, hostess. You name it we tried it. In 6 months I was offered zero jobs that paid at least minimum wage, and my husband was offered one, the one he took and now works at.

 

[susang]

Absolutely! Not strawberries because at the time they were out of season but my husband and I both tried to get more than one field job.

DUH! metaphor you do know what that is. While you are at it instead of reporting employers for hiring undocumented, ask that employer for a job. Even if it is under the table you could 1099 unless you are receiving welfare or some other type of financial aide stoping you from working. It is not illegal to work for cash if you do a 1099 and declare the income.

 

[jpccusa]

:laugh01:
That's funny, asking someone if they thought of moving somewhere where there isn't illegals. Doesn't that open up even more space for the illegals to occupy? Why not give them our whole country? Then we can all move to another country illegally and see what a burden we become to them? I vote China. I would like to go herping there...

And how exactly are people going to afford to relocate if they don't have a job?? Maybe if there weren't so many illegal immigrants Dinah and her husband could have got a job in the fields to make ends meet until they could find something better.

And yet I was just wondering if she ever THOUGHT about it.

 

[Dinah]

I wonder if you thought about relocating to an area with less illegal immigrants (but since you wouldn't know for sure where they are, you would have to pick an area where mostly Caucasians live) or lower unemployment rate.

Well Caucasians can also be illegal immigrants...lets us not be discriminatory it isn't just people of other races who immigrate to the US illegally, and second of all, no relocating would not be a smart financial choice because that would make our bills skyrocket, because we have already paid this house off

 

[Outcast]

And yet I was just wondering if she ever THOUGHT about it.

Why should she move, or even think of moving? Why not enforce the laws, get the illegals out of the country, and open up jobs so the Legal citizens who are unemployed can get employed?

Why is that so difficult for you to wrap your head around?

I don't understand why you keep saying that Illegal Immigrants are not criminals, There are Immigration Laws. My dictionary says that someone is a criminal when they break the law....

I know you are tired of repeating yourself, so why don't you come up with something that makes sense?

 

[susang]

I guess the one thing I really do not get is how (and why) are we supposed to take care of the rest of the world when we cannot even take care of our own problems at home? How many unemployed do we have in the US currently? How many homeless living on our streets (including our own veterans?). How many of our own disasters to take care of (flooding in TN right now, the oil rig spill we are trying to clean up etc...)? How many women and children living in shelters due to domestic violence right here in the US? And yet we are supposed to keep on giving to everyone else? Why don't we focus on our own people and our own problems first? Why does no other country lend us a helping hand in solving these problems yet expect us to take in all of their illegal immigrants like it is no big deal?
I am sorry - I don't care what people think of me for saying this either - I am sick of it. I am sick of people looking for handouts, sick of people expecting that they can just come here illegally and reap all the great things about this country when we have our hands full with our own problems already without this adding more to it. Sick of people expecting we are just going to keep bending over and taking it because we are the USA and we are supposed to support everyone for everything all the damn time.

I am not saying that I don't feel sorry for people living in some backwards third world country that has problems even worse than ours as noted by Stephanie - of course I feel for them. But that doesn't make it my problem. I have my own problems to deal with - no - maybe not as severe - but in MY life they are MY problems and I have to sort those out before I could even consider helping out someone in a foreign country. And I know there are a lot of people out there who feel the same. I see the same sentiments posted on message boards all over the internet by all types of people here in the US - all ages, both sexes, all races etc....

Edit to add - as a sidenote - this is why I usually try to stay out of these kinds of threads. I get too worked up about anything even slightly related to politics.

While I am not as elloquent as Steph, I understand your opinion. I agree our problem, our life deal with more then you can immagine. We blame undocumented, Blacks, Irish, Italians, Poles, Jews. For all that is good two things we need to stop blaming others for our shortcomings and rememeber the one commandment the Golden Rule. I am not religious far from it but I do believe that " do unto others".

 

[Dinah]

DUH! metaphor you do know what that is.

That is rude, you asked me a point blank question, would I be willing to pick strawberries for minimum wage with no benefits? .... and I said yes. Duh is not necessary and it is rude

 

[jpccusa]

Are you sure it helped you understand? Because if supply is high (workers) and demand is low (number of jobs) it would be some crazy math for you to show me that somehow adding more supply (workers) is what will fix the problem

Macroeconomics is much more complex than a simple "supply and demand" graph. That's why I suggested a course which would be able to explain much better than I would ever be able to (specially since Rich never made us able to make graphs in this forum).

I don't especially care what the globe thinks about me

Great!

Well that is your opinion then, but don't call it impossible or too hard because there are plenty of motivated can do people who can find a way. If you are against it because you think it is wrong then stand up with a back bone and say what you mean, don't give some cope out excuse like well thats a hard thing to do.

Well, I consider myself a "can do" person. I think we can overhaul the immigration system in order to fix all the problems we have been discussing since I opened the thread. And I do have a back bone and I so say what I mean. Perhaps your inability to comprehend my reasoning leads you to believe I don't, which is fine... that is your opinion.

If you break the law it is a crime, if you commit a crime you are a criminal. You can call them something nicer if you like but I am going to stick with the plain simple truth and call them what they are criminals. Sure they can be nice educated people who have never committed any other crime in their lives but they are still criminals. And in order to work here they have to continue to commit crimes like fraud so they can get a SS to provide to an employer.

Unless you are willing to understand what other people have to say, even if you don't agree with it, it would be pointless to keep answering your posts.

 

[Dinah]

It isn't that I am unwilling to understand you it is that I am unable to understand you because you keep saying things that dont make sense. The definition of crime is doing something illegal. The definition of criminal is someone who does something illegal. So then where is the logic that this particular sort of law breaking isn't the real kind of law breaking? How is breaking immigration laws different from breaking drug laws or traffic laws? How is a person who has some pot a criminal (because possession is against the law) but a person who is here illegally not a criminal (being here illegally is also against the law)? What makes some law breaking a real crime and some law breaking a fake crime?

 

[jpccusa]

I know you are tired of repeating yourself, so why don't you come up with something that makes sense?

Yes I am.

It is as simple as "they were never found guilty by a criminal court therefore they are not criminals the same way as someone who killed another person is."

I'm sorry if you can't understand that. Unfortunately I can't come up with someone different so you are able to comprehend the concept. Sometimes you just have to let it go. :uhoh:

 

[susang]

I have family in Ohio - my aunt and uncle - who have both been unemployed for a year. My aunt is a teacher....I have read frequently of a shortage of teachers in the US - so how is it that she is still unemployed? She is highly educated, has been applying for positions nonstop since she lost her job and still nothing.

I also have another friend who has been unemployed for a year and a half now. He has applied for everything under the sun and is constantly told he is either overqualified or does not have enough experience. He has been in management for years, has a college degree etc.... I have seen him apply for jobs day in and day out. Online, in person etc...
So BS back - you know two lucky people - I know a lot more people in much more unlucky circumstances.
My brother was unemployed for a year having previously been a bank manager. My stepsister is currently unemployed.
These are all people with high levels of education, good, honest, hardworking people. A lot of whom would take minimum wage jobs but were told time and time again that they were OVER QUALIFIED. You know what that means? The company didn't want to PAY them a salary that they should be entitled to for the position applied for with their skills. Better to hire a cheap, illegal immigrant or someone with little to no experience (meaning someone who is going to possibly screw up a lot more than someone who does have experience) and pay less money for their salaries.

I am sorry for your Aunt, the statistics here are letting more mature teachers retire (i.e. [ you do what that means don't you] golden handshake only lead) to allow for young blood more aware teachers. I think it is BS. Maybe I am lucky, I think not as I see lots of unemployed people in my local saying they can't get jobs, they aren't looking either or the hours are bad, they have to work weekends...
OVER QUALIFIED, no I have no idea what that means my higher edumication didn't teach me much al 18 years of it. My husband him and I struggle through day by day, poor we or is it us. No we pay our bills and take care of ourselves we also help those in need regarless of their status, race... You do know what it means to help those in need don't you.

 

[Outcast]

Yes I am.

It is as simple as "they were never found guilty by a criminal court therefore they are not criminals the same way as someone who killed another person is."

I'm sorry if you can't understand that. Unfortunately I can't come up with someone different so you are able to comprehend the concept. Sometimes you just have to let it go. :uhoh:

What I am gathering from this, is if I were to murder someone, and found not found guilty, even though I am. I am not a criminal? I still committed a crime, but because I was not found guilty that makes me "good to go".

Is that what you are saying?

Just because they were not found guilty by a criminal court, does not make them any less guilty of a crime. Breaking a law is a crime. Speeding is a crime. Rape is a crime. Robbery is a crime.

 

[susang]

That is rude, you asked me a point blank question, would I be willing to pick strawberries for minimum wage with no benefits? .... and I said yes. Duh is not necessary and it is rude

Yes and I apologize the DUH was rude. I am getting very upset over all of this, which is not an excuse. It was a metaphor though.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

It is as simple as "they were never found guilty by a criminal court therefore they are not criminals the same way as someone who killed another person is

Why do they have to go to court? They are not citizens of this country. That is the whole point. They are here ILLEGALLY. Breaking the law by coming in to this country by other than LEGAL means. That translates into being deported back to your own country - no court required....

I am sorry for your Aunt, the statistics here are letting more mature teachers retire (i.e. [ you do what that means don't you] golden handshake only lead) to allow for young blood more aware teachers. I think it is BS. Maybe I am lucky, I think not as I see lots of unemployed people in my local saying they can't get jobs, they aren't looking either or the hours are bad, they have to work weekends...
OVER QUALIFIED, no I have no idea what that means my higher edumication didn't teach me much al 18 years of it. My husband him and I struggle through day by day, poor we or is it us. No we pay our bills and take care of ourselves we also help those in need regarless of their status, race... You do know what it means to help those in need don't you.

You know Susan - I have no idea why you feel the need to be rude to me about this? I made a statement that you had family that was LUCKY enough to be able to find new jobs where as I have family and friends in multiple states across the country who have been unable to do so. And not for lack of trying or not being willing to take minimum wage jobs. Companies are turning them away because they would rather pay cheap salaries to under-qualified, completely unqualified or downright illegal people instead of having someone competent who can do the job right and keep customers etc. happy. Just because your family was lucky doesn't mean all the rest of the unemployed people in this country are going to be.
And yes, I do know what it means to help people out - I help out my family. They are my priority. Not the illegal immigrants or people in other countries - MY family is my priority to help out.

 

[Dinah]

Yes I am.

It is as simple as "they were never found guilty by a criminal court therefore they are not criminals the same way as someone who killed another person is."

I'm sorry if you can't understand that. Unfortunately I can't come up with someone different so you are able to comprehend the concept. Sometimes you just have to let it go. :uhoh:

You are talking about something different than me. The absence of criminal penalties does not mean there was the absence of a crime. A crime is a violation of the law any law. Yes our govt handles some crimes with a full criminal proceeding and a trial, and other crimes are handled via fines, and things, but all of the things are violations of the law, and so they are all crimes, and therefore all of the people are criminals. Just because you receive a civil penalty rather than a jail sentence/conviction that does not mean that what you did was legal or not a crime. And that does not make you not a criminal. You are talking about criminal and civil penalties which doesn't mean that if you get a civil penalty it wasn't a crime. If I were busted with drugs but as a first offender I got a fine and no criminal conviction. My actions would still have been illegal, I would still have committed a crime, and I would still be a criminal. Even if I did not end up with a record and even if I only got a civil penalty (fine).

 

[jpccusa]

These are all people with high levels of education, good, honest, hardworking people. A lot of whom would take minimum wage jobs but were told time and time again that they were OVER QUALIFIED. You know what that means? The company didn't want to PAY them a salary that they should be entitled to for the position applied for with their skills. Better to hire a cheap, illegal immigrant or someone with little to no experience (meaning someone who is going to possibly screw up a lot more than someone who does have experience) and pay less money for their salaries.

You know what that means? Either the "over qualified" people are asking for too much money or doing a bad job putting a resume together, or the employers don't need that much qualifications indeed.

Now regarding the few cheap labor who are going to screw up a lot and make the business loose customers, microeconomics explain that the economy will take care of them so no one should worry about how well qualified their employees are.

You are talking about something different than me. The absence of criminal penalties does not mean there was the absence of a crime. A crime is a violation of the law any law. Yes our govt handles some crimes with a full criminal proceeding and a trial, and other crimes are handled via fines, and things, but all of the things are violations of the law, and so they are all crimes, and therefore all of the people are criminals. Just because you receive a civil penalty rather than a jail sentence/conviction that does not mean that what you did was legal or not a crime. And that does not make you not a criminal. You are talking about criminal and civil penalties which doesn't mean that if you get a civil penalty it wasn't a crime. If I were busted with drugs but as a first offender I got a fine and no criminal conviction. My actions would still have been illegal, I would still have committed a crime, and I would still be a criminal. Even if I did not end up with a record and even if I only got a civil penalty (fine).

I agree 100%. Finally I am feeling understood.
I have been repeating myself that illegals are not criminals because I am using the legal definition of the word, while most people are using the English definition (as found in any dictionary).
Yes, since they broke a law they are criminals, and no, since they were never convicted by a criminal judge, they are not criminals. :cheers:

With that said, a few posts ago you said something in the order of "letting our criminals in jail go free because of the harsh environment, and separation from their family member,etc." Can you see how that would be totally wrong, even though they are American citizens? Can you see why I am pro-fines and a path to citizenship instead of deportation only (taking into consideration many other aspects previously discussed about the effects of mass deportation)?

 

[jpccusa]

I have heard that if we legalize all of the illegals currently here, there would be a boost in the economy. I can show proof later.

As promised, here it the proof.

 

[desertanimal]

Yes and I apologize the DUH was rude. I am getting very upset over all of this, which is not an excuse. It was a metaphor though.

Good on ya, Susan, for apologizing.

 

[Buzzard]

I am finally going to agree to disagree. This thing has been going in circles since day one.

I leave in saying this. Until an illegal alein has effected your lifestyle you will not know what impacts you. I have had this happen as stated in my very 1st post. The illegal immigration law in place are not enough to keep scores of people to bust across the border. Illegal immigrants do take jobs. They are only trying to live. A lot of this money is sent to there families to try to get them here as well. I have nothing against any person working hard. I do have a problem with how it is being done. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law. They come here "illegally" hence the term. The punishment for being caught is deportation. If AZ and other states adopt the Federal law and inforce it then so be it. I hope they round them all up and send them back to where they are from. Until legislator change this is the way it is. LOVE it, or LEAVE it.

 

[jazzgeek]

I'm sorry - I must have explained my idea very poorly. What I meant is a COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY service period, more similar to the old VISTA program (Volunteers in Service to America - not sure if it is still around or not - it was kind of a domestic peace corp service. I believe there was a time during the draft that it - or something like it - was suggested as an alternate to military service for draftees who didn't want to go into the military). Or maybe it could even include military service. What I was trying to suggest is a way to obtain a green card for prospective immigrants who want to come legally, but currently have no way to qualify because they don't have the needed job skill or relatives living here. As it is now, it is pretty much impossible without those connections, unless you live in a country that is allowed to participate in the green card lottery, and you are lucky enough to win.

< snip >

Hope that explains it better.

Yep, it does. Ya scared me there for a second.

Dale