Hatchling self-cohab...*sigh*

[Cegninedorf]

Hello...*sigh*

Believe me, I've read the threads on co-habbing, including this latest one, and I'm not trying to start anything in the way of a fight, but I have to wonder: do breeders immediately separate hatchlings into their own boxes/tanks right after hatching, or can the hatchlings stay together for a little bit & then be on their merry way?

In my case, I have two charcoal ladies who are both about 5-6 mos old, and one is 20 g & the other is 30 g. I took a 20-gal tank & cut a plexi-glass wall to go between them -- and it's been working great until Hyetti discovered that she lives in a sorority house. She found the tiniest sliver of space & keeps going over the wall. First she did it, then Zya went to visit her, and now Hyetti won't stay on her side. I'm a wee bit frustrated -- and yes, I'm working on getting her her own enclosure set-up this weekend.

However, in the meantime, will it be safe enough to let Hyetti keep visiting Zya? They're well-fed & pretty much ignore each other. Is cannibalization frequent in hatchlings? And when does a hatchling stop being a hatchling?

By no means do I recommend co-habbing; in fact, I even put the question on my Q-&-A sheet at ReptileFest this past weekend advocating against it. So, I do understand the dangers, but I feel that I have to defend myself right off so that I don't get burned by asking this...thanks.

 

[bitsy]

The risk is greatest with hatchlings. To be honest, you know the arguments for and against and only you can make the decision for your particular circumstances.

 

[Cegninedorf]

The risk is greatest with hatchlings. To be honest, you know the arguments for and against and only you can make the decision for your particular circumstances.

True, true. So breeders separate hatchlings immediately then?

I decided to feed them again today -- I think Hyetti's antics are her way of saying, "Feed me!" So, I fed them both...and that usually keeps them on the right side for a few more days...until this weekend when they move into their own penthouses...

Thanks...

 

[patm1313]

True, true. So breeders separate hatchlings immediately then?

I decided to feed them again today -- I think Hyetti's antics are her way of saying, "Feed me!" So, I fed them both...and that usually keeps them on the right side for a few more days...until this weekend when they move into their own penthouses...

Thanks...

About breeders seperating: Yes, and no...

Some breeders put all of the hatchlings from the same clutch in a big tub and either as they get sold off they move into individual tanks, or as they get older they move them into individual tanks. Honestley, it probably depends on the breeder. It's mostly a matter of space.

If you (or anyone else) want to know about this for breeding here's what I suggest:

Go out to your local Wally World and grab a few (more like 20) of those plastic shoeboxes. You can use one for the incubator, and probably one for each of the hatchlings. They stack, and that's always good when considering space.

Now, I don't have a lot of room to talk, because I haven't bred, but I've been seeing what breeders do.

And lastly, I hat to be the first one to say this, but why don't you just seal up the gap with a bit of taped down cardboard or something? Even though you're going to get them each into individual tanks soo, you should still cover the gap in the meantime.

 

[bitsy]

So breeders separate hatchlings immediately then?

Can't speak for anyone else, but I separate them as soon as I see them out of the egg and moving about in the egg container. If they hatch in the morning after I leave for work, then they co-hab for the day until I get home. Also, I'm not checking the egg container every half hour even when I'm at home, so they could still spend several hours together.

But as they don't take their first feed until they're about 10 days old, the risk of cannibalism immediately after hatchling is probably lower (just my supposition, not a hard fact).

 

[Cegninedorf]

And lastly, I hat to be the first one to say this, but why don't you just seal up the gap with a bit of taped down cardboard or something? Even though you're going to get them each into individual tanks soo, you should still cover the gap in the meantime.

I have been trying to seal up the gap! I've been using all kinds of things, but for some reason, the plexi-glass is cut in a funny way & with the lid (one with the seam in the middle)...it's just a bizarre angle. Believe me, I wouldn't be posting this if I hadn't of tried a bunch of different ways already. Oy...

 

[bitsy]

Is the plexiglass rigid enough that it could bear a bit of weight? You might be able to block off the gap with some Plasticine or a non-drying modelling clay, which you could mould to the right shape?

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

Some breeders put all of the hatchlings from the same clutch in a big tub and either as they get sold off they move into individual tanks, or as they get older they move them into individual tanks. Honestley, it probably depends on the breeder. It's mostly a matter of space.

If you don't have the space to house individually, then you shouldn't breed. Keeping them all together, makes it near impossible to track the progress of each snake - are they eating, pooping, shedding, etc.

I personally, separate them out after about 24-48 hrs when they've all hatched. Then I sex and label each clutch all at once. But I definitely don't keep them together, and I don't know of any serious breeders who do either.

As for the space/gap, why not just put one in a sterilite container. You could get one for a few bucks and then clamp it shut with binder clips. Total cost would be less than $5.

 

[kathylove]

I have done it both ways. I ALWAYS separate by the time they eat their first meal. Some years I have separated into individual shoeboxes as soon as they hatch, and are counted, checked, sexed, etc. Other years, I have separated each clutch into males and females and kept each half clutch in one shoebox until they start eating.

Sometimes I would throw a pile of pinks in each shoebox, lined up in a group on the counter. Then I would reach in and pull out each snake as it grabbed a pink, and place it in its own "new" box to finish the meal, and live alone from that time on. I think the frenzied activity of mice waving around sometimes stimulated the feeding response. Of course, I had to occasionally cut a pink in half when 2 snakes each grabbed one side and wouldn't let go! It takes constant supervision. OTOH, some of the timid snakes could be scared instead of stimulated. I have generally gone to immediate separation in recent years. That should be easier this year, since I thinned down the adult colony last year and should finally have well under 1,000 babies this year.

The only time I have seen cannibalism (without food present) is a couple of times with a group of non-feeding bloodreds that suddenly decided to eat a sib. Maybe they just weren't "hardwired" to eat mice, and were trying to figure out just what is supposed to be food. I don't know why it was only bloods, as I temporarily housed half clutches of not-yet-feeders together (of all morphs), using literally thousands of babies over the years - but always separated after they had fed once on their own.

 

[JM :o)]

I leave them together in the moss they incubated in until I see a bunch of sheds in the moss. Then I seperate into individual containers~ sex them and offer feed.

 

[Cegninedorf]

Is the plexiglass rigid enough that it could bear a bit of weight? You might be able to block off the gap with some Plasticine or a non-drying modelling clay, which you could mould to the right shape?

True, hadn't gotten that far yet. I didn't want to put any kind of sticky-tapey stuff in the tank, for fear of getting stuck to it, but I didn't think of clay. Darn little heads & bodies!

If you don't have the space to house individually, then you shouldn't breed. Keeping them all together, makes it near impossible to track the progress of each snake - are they eating, pooping, shedding, etc.

I personally, separate them out after about 24-48 hrs when they've all hatched. Then I sex and label each clutch all at once. But I definitely don't keep them together, and I don't know of any serious breeders who do either.

See, this is the exact reason why I haven't bred any of my snakes yet...but I do appreciate your honest answer without burning me mercilessly.

As for the space/gap, why not just put one in a sterilite container. You could get one for a few bucks and then clamp it shut with binder clips. Total cost would be less than $5.

Very true, didn't think of that. This only recently became a problem, so I hadn't thought much beyond what I could do with her current living space. However, it seems as though Hyetti only goes awol when she's ready to eat again, so I think I'm ok with her until this coming weekend, when I can move her officially into her own 10 gal & she'll be done digesting -- and ready to stay put!

I have done it both ways.

I appreciate your explanation! This definitely helped my understanding.

Thank you, to everyone: I've long wanted to ask the questions that I've asked here, and I really appreciate that I was taken seriously -- and not just some newbie trying to start a bit of contention.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I may just get dog piled for this. I'm evil, I cohab the freshly hatched babies. After they shed, they get offered food. Each of the freshly shed babies goes in a deli with a pinky. Those that eat, get sexed and labeled and put in their own shoebox. Those that don't, go back into the community tank.
The next time I attempt feeding I also try the tricks like tease feeding the ones that were stubborn the first time, leaving them in delis overnight with food, etc. Again the eaters get their own pad and the refusers go back in a group home.
My way of thinking is, if they won't even eat a pinky, so they won't be eating each other.
Fire away, folks. This method has worked for me for years with no cannibalisms. Once they eat they get seperated, until then they are kept in a 10 gallon or sweater box sterilite - together.

 

[stephen]

Nah

I think thats a fine way to do it unless you have some really rare corns, its possably one can eat another but its rare.I have done it that way also I even threw in pinkys with all of them and the ones that eat get seperated. I never have had one eat another.

 

[MegF.]

I think the ones that aren't eating, are not eating because they are too stressed from the presence of other animals to eat. I always separate the babies after they are born. Most of the time I check the egg box a few times per day and pull out whoever is out of the egg. They are numbered and put in the rack. That way I can keep feed and shed records on each, they are in their own house without the stress of others in there. Baby snakes don't hang out together. They go their own ways to find food. It's counterproductive to hang out with another animal that might eat the only food available in that area. They aren't geared to group feedings. It's only because cornsnakes are such good eaters to begin with that any eat at all.

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

See, this is the exact reason why I haven't bred any of my snakes yet...but I do appreciate your honest answer without burning me mercilessly.

Not here to burn, just share my opinion. I was directing my comment more towards patm who seeemed to be suggesting that there are many breeders who cohab hatchlings forever and that they just sell them off out of the group.

Good luck getting everything straightened out; everyone ends up with mishaps and unforeseen circumstances. Let us know how everything works out.

 

[patm1313]

I may just get dog piled for this. I'm evil, I cohab the freshly hatched babies. After they shed, they get offered food. Each of the freshly shed babies goes in a deli with a pinky. Those that eat, get sexed and labeled and put in their own shoebox. Those that don't, go back into the community tank.

That's pretty normal, at least to my knowedge.

 

[MegF.]

Uh, no...it's really not pretty normal. I don't leave a mass of babies together until their first feeding and then separate the ones that eat. I separate all babies immediately and feed seperately. I think for the most part, that's what most breeders do. I know that Rich posted a picture of cannabilism when he left some babies in together prior to sexing. You'll never know when babies will finally get hungry. It's possible they'll eat before their first shed, and know for a fact that some will eat right out of the egg. It's not a chance I am willing to take with my babies, and I think it's stressful for them too. BTW...I love that avatar of yours Patm

 

[Cegninedorf]

Not here to burn, just share my opinion. I was directing my comment more towards patm who seeemed to be suggesting that there are many breeders who cohab hatchlings forever and that they just sell them off out of the group.

Good luck getting everything straightened out; everyone ends up with mishaps and unforeseen circumstances. Let us know how everything works out.

Well, I got the other tank set up for the lil'escape artist & she's going in as soon as she makes her post-digestion reappearance. I know that she's not venturing over to Zya's side for the sake of company -- I know that she's just doing it just because she *can*. Silly lil'wench.

Anyway! I'm glad to hear what other breeders do regarding hatchlings, especially from those who have their own method of dealing with hatchlings...definitely food for thought when/if I should ever venture into breeding. While I like reading the "by the book" methods, I really appreciate more learning about personal methods. It makes me feel more secure in knowing that I'm "okay" when I adapt, as well.

Thanks again! :wavey:

 

[Roy Munson]

I'm a little late to this, but I wanted to put my vote in the "separate immediately" column. If they're out of the egg and crawling around, I set them up in their own cup. Of course, I can't perform round-the-clock vigils, so there are 8-10 hour stretches when some may be hanging out together in their incubation container...

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Other years, I have separated each clutch into males and females and kept each half clutch in one shoebox until they start eating.

...I temporarily housed half clutches of not-yet-feeders together (of all morphs), using literally thousands of babies over the years - but always separated after they had fed once on their own.

I kind of knew when I posted there'd be people that disagree. I can live with that, that's okay. At least those of you who don't think the way I do it is right, are people who have bred before. It's people who have never had a clutch on the ground posting telling others how to breed and raise their snakes that I get a bit annoyed by. By the above quote, Kathy Love pretty much said she has done the same thing as I do in the past.
We don't all have to do things exactly the same way. For example I disagree about deli cups as a suitable enclosure. I won't house hatchlings in deli cups, I'd rather have a few in a larger enclosure than one in a tiny one. Like I explained they do get seperated after they have eaten.
There may be something to the stress factor, but when I do offer the pinky the snake is alone in a deli with it so there isn't really a competition for the food item or intimidation factor going on.
The whole point of my post was that not every rule is set in stone. I guess you can take it with a grain of salt or whatever.