Fedex and corns

[midnightgallop]

I always get boxes that say "perishable" from breeders when I've gotten corns and other snakes, and they are all fedex certified, but not all of them seem to label the box with the species name or anything indicating that there is a live harmless reptile in there on the box. Or is that information listed elsewhere not necessarily on the box? Is that illegal or against the lacey act? I've always wondered that.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Well, technically, it's not lying if they say "perishable", and "fragile". But I'm not entirely certain on the fedex shipping regulations. You'd have to ask a certified shipper.

 

[midnightgallop]

does any fedex certified shipper have any info for me on this?

 

[Drizzt80]

As per the Lacey Act the box needs to identify the common name, the scientific name, and the number of animals in the box. I will admit to forgetting to put a label on a box here and there, but it hasn't been anything conscious. When I was using UPS, I was labeling with just the scientific name to avoid using the word snake.

I have printed up mailing labels that have the common name, scientific name, a place to put the total number, and the words Live HARMLESS Reptile on them. Quick and easy cheesey . . . when I remember to grab them! Once or twice I've remembered in the FedEx office and just written the same information in pen which is fine as well.

D80

 

[midnightgallop]

As per the Lacey Act the box needs to identify the common name, the scientific name, and the number of animals in the box. I will admit to forgetting to put a label on a box here and there, but it hasn't been anything conscious. When I was using UPS, I was labeling with just the scientific name to avoid using the word snake.

I have printed up mailing labels that have the common name, scientific name, a place to put the total number, and the words Live HARMLESS Reptile on them. Quick and easy cheesey . . . when I remember to grab them! Once or twice I've remembered in the FedEx office and just written the same information in pen which is fine as well.

D80

Thank you for replying. I will remember to do that when I myself ship out reptiles in the future. This whole thread was created because I have read online of people refusing a package due to lacey act violation, and it really got the gears turning because I have recieved a few boxes without any type of label indicating that there was a live reptile inside it other than saying "perishable" with arrows. I'm not saying I would do such a thing, but it is still something I'm curious about since fedex has guessed on such boxes that there was a corn snake or snake in it due to the business name. Is the customer liable for such mistakes and faulty labeling then? I know most people go without incident, but I think it would be a good thing to know.

 

[Drizzt80]

Is the customer liable for such mistakes and faulty labeling then?

I don't know the answer to that, but I would hope that the customer would not be liable for the seller's mistake. That wouldn't make sense, but then again, it is a government policy we're talking about! :eek1:

D80

 

[Khaman]

One of the local herpers here received a package containing an alligator and Ky fish and game arrested him as soon as it arrived. He swears he did not know it was being shipped to him and denies knowing the person that shipped it. So it is possible that they will nab both ends.

I always just included the scientific names on the shipping sheet that I printed out for Fed Ex.

 

[midnightgallop]

I don't know the answer to that, but I would hope that the customer would not be liable for the seller's mistake. That wouldn't make sense, but then again, it is a government policy we're talking about!

D80

I hope the customer would not be reliable as well, both for my sake in the future when buying snakes and for the sake of the people I might ship to later on. I would feel incredibly guilty if by forgetting the label, a mom buying a pet snake for her child would get arrested. that would be terrible! Although I'm sure it wouldn't happen, but as you both said, it is a possibility if you really think about it.

One of the local herpers here received a package containing an alligator and Ky fish and game arrested him as soon as it arrived. He swears he did not know it was being shipped to him and denies knowing the person that shipped it. So it is possible that they will nab both ends.

I always just included the scientific names on the shipping sheet that I printed out for Fed Ex.

Wow.... They arrested him right then and there or a day or so after he got it? i have a mental image of them with the delivery truck and running out like on COPS as if it were a drug bust haha. Why didn't they find out about that sooner in transit I wonder? That's scary. Good thing I only buy corn snakes. Good example of them blaming both parties involved though.

Well thank you to both of you for giving your input and experience. I guess all the reciever can do is gently remind sellers/breeders of the label and hope everything goes well if a label is forgotten or not descriptive enough. I'm sure I'l

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I always just included the scientific names on the shipping sheet that I printed out for Fed Ex.

That isn't enough. You need to list the common name, scientific name and quantity to comply with federal law.



I'm with Brent...I used to be really bad about remembering to label my boxes, but I do the same thing he does now...Have the labels already made so I can just stick 'em on and write in the quantity.

 

[midnightgallop]

That's a good idea to have them pre-printed so you don't forget. I'm sure it wouldn't be too much trouble to do that either since labels are easy to print.

 

[Khaman]

Wow.... They arrested him right then and there or a day or so after he got it?

UPS called him down to pick up an undeliverable package and they arrested him when he got there. I don’t think the package ever left the UPS hub in Louisville.

That isn't enough. You need to list the common name, scientific name and quantity to comply with federal law.

Lacy does not say it has to be on the outside box just with the shipment. The quantity and common name is on the bill of sale/ shipper inside the box. James Brown the head of Fed Ex’s legal department agreed that it was not defined and since there were several people along the Fed Ex line that kept calling me saying we don’t ship snakes I kept it a secret as best I could within the law.

 

[Drizzt80]

Lacy does not say it has to be on the outside box just with the shipment.

Oh, now that is just downright interesting!! If that's true, then "those who shall not be named" that fervently lambasted me (and tried to downgrade my ethics and integrity) for both using UPS and NOT labeling my shipments properly can eat their hats.

D80

 

[midnightgallop]

Oh, now that is just downright interesting!! If that's true, then "those who shall not be named" that fervently lambasted me (and tried to downgrade my ethics and integrity) for both using UPS and NOT labeling my shipments properly can eat their hats.

D80

haha well that must feel good to know you did right by the shipping despite their uproar

UPS called him down to pick up an undeliverable package and they arrested him when he got there. I don’t think the package ever left the UPS hub in Louisville.

Wow, that really is on the spot. I still think my mental image is the best though with how that arrest might have been executed haha. *enter the COPS theme song* :bird:

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Oh wow I think I remember that whole debacle. Hat snacks yum.
I usually take one of those file folder labels, write "Pantherophis guttatus" (corn snake) (#) on it and stick it on the box. It's inconspicuous yet complies with the law. If they can read my writing, that is. I figure not that many fed ex couriers go around reading everything on every box. I want the "perishable, this side up, keep cool" in big letters, and the "snake" in small ones LOL

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Lacy does not say it has to be on the outside box just with the shipment. The quantity and common name is on the bill of sale/ shipper inside the box. James Brown the head of Fed Ex’s legal department agreed that it was not defined and since there were several people along the Fed Ex line that kept calling me saying we don’t ship snakes I kept it a secret as best I could within the law.

I believe you were misinformed.

Lacey Act PDF

3372(b) Marking offenses It is unlawful for any person to import, export, or transport in interstate commerce any container or package containing any fish or wildlife unless the container or package has previously been plainly marked, labeled, or tagged in accordance with the regulations issued pursuant to paragraph (2) of section 3376(x) of this title.

3372(d) False labeling offenses It is unlawful for any person to make or submit any false record, account, or label for, or any false identification of, any fish, wildlife, or plant which has been, or is intended to be—
(1) imported, exported, transported, sold, purchased, or received from any foreign country; or
(2) transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

3376(a)(2) The Secretaries of the Interior and Commerce shall jointly promulgate specific regulations to implement the provisions of section 3372 (b) of this title for the marking and labeling of containers or packages containing fish or wildlife. These regulations shall be in accordance with existing commercial practices.

While yes, the whole verbage to an average person is horridly confusing...I do not believe anyone should risk violating Federal Law. While James Brown may be the head of FedEx's Legal Department, he is not the head of the Federal Government and should not be recommending people risk violating Federal Law. People have been fined for violating the Lacey Act.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

If it's helpful to anyone, I've attached a PDF copy of what my labels look like (feel free to use them). They print on standard Avery Address Labels.

 

[Khaman]

3372 section (b) Marking offenses
It is unlawful for any person to import, export, or transport in interstate commerce any container or package
containing any fish or wildlife unless the container or package has previously been plainly marked, labeled, or
tagged in accordance with the regulations issued pursuant to paragraph (2) of section 3376 (a) of this title.

Ok this says you must mark the shipping container by the rules set forth in the following paragraph


3376 section (a) paragraph (2) The Secretaries of the Interior and Commerce shall jointly promulgate specific regulations to
implement the provisions of section 3372 (b) of this title for the marking and labeling of containers or
packages containing fish or wildlife. These regulations shall be in accordance with existing commercial
practices.

This states you must mark it “in accordance with exiting commercial practices”. Which is a brief description of what is inside on the shipping label and a detailed packing sheet which I place on the styrofoam top piece of the insulation under the box flaps so it is the first thing you see when you open the box. As I said before it is not specific about the labeling of these shipments. :shrugs:

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

This states you must mark it “in accordance with exiting commercial practices”. Which is a brief description of what is inside on the shipping label and a detailed packing sheet which I place on the styrofoam top piece of the insulation under the box flaps so it is the first thing you see when you open the box. As I said before it is not specific about the labeling of these shipments.

Do you see where you are completely skimming over in 3372(b) where it states specifically:

It is unlawful for any person to import, export, or transport in interstate commerce any container or package containing any fish or wildlife unless the container or package has previously been plainly marked, labeled, or tagged

I'm not sure how you want it more specific then that?

The Lacey Act does not define what "existing business practices" is and you can not define it for yourself. More then likely it was defined in a previous Law, prior to the 08/06/04 Lacey Act...But who knows where that is at this point.

I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the Lacey Act and would have to encourage shippers to continue labeling their reptile shipments properly to avoid the risk of fines and violating Federal Law.

 

[Khaman]

I am not skimming over it. It states that it must be “plainly marked, labeled, or tagged” and to know how to do that see “paragraph (2) of section 3376 (a)” which only says it has to be labeled “in accordance with existing commercial practices.” That is it, not how to mark or what to mark it with so by the letter of the law listing X number of Pantherophis Guttata on the shipping label is all that is legally required.


I searched several wildlife law websites and all agree it is vague on what is required to be listed on the container but they also agree that it needs to be labeled.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

That is it, not how to mark or what to mark it with so by the letter of the law listing X number of Pantherophis Guttata on the shipping label is all that is legally required.

I searched several wildlife law websites and all agree it is vague on what is required to be listed on the container but they also agree that it needs to be labeled.

It says you have to label the package with the contents (not just include an invoice inside the package, which is what I was disagreeing with you on in the first place).

I do agree that it doesn't specify if Common or Scientific or both are required, but it does say it is unlawful for any person to make or submit any false record, account, or label for, or any false identification of, any fish, wildlife, or plant which has been intended to be transported in interstate or foreign commerce. To cover your butt, why would you not provide all of that common/scientific information? Do you really think that if you got busted, you can use the excuse "well I interpreted it this way, not that way"?