-
Hello!
Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.
Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....
Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.
Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.
Goldust motley x butter motley = ?
- Thread starter toyah
- Start date
Rich in KY
Fortunate Fool
Something from hidden hets? :shrugs:
Blue Apple Herps
aka Matthew, PhD
eyes look really dark, possible charcoal?
Blue Apple Herps
aka Matthew, PhD
If it was a golddust and butter crossing, would be impossible to get a "normal" caramel out of the pairing, so assuming the parents are what they're supposed to be, its probably not a caramel.
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
that really looks like a caramel. If goldust is ultramel caramel, I am thinking that one just got the ultra and not the amel and is an ultra caramel?
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
n/m thinking more about it it would have got the amel part from the butter mot
:shrugs:
:shrugs:
Darcpixie
New member
but the butter could only contribute amel or amel.
the question wouldn't be what did the golddust motley contribute... but what did the BUTTER contribute? Maybe it's really a (oh, I dunno) hypo golddust, and therefore you have butters, golddusts, and ULTRA caramels?
What were the parents of the butter?
That's just my take on it.
the question wouldn't be what did the golddust motley contribute... but what did the BUTTER contribute? Maybe it's really a (oh, I dunno) hypo golddust, and therefore you have butters, golddusts, and ULTRA caramels?
What were the parents of the butter?
That's just my take on it.
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
Thank you, Matthew.
I'm not bad when it comes to genetics...UNTIL you throw some ultra/ultramel/goldust stuff my way....then I'm totally LOST!!
toyah
Snakes in designer genes
It does have charcoal eyes, is the odd thing.
Since one parent is butter and one is goldust, it has to be either amel based or ultramel based surely?
Confusing wee creature mind you!
toyah
Snakes in designer genes
but the butter could only contribute amel or amel.
the question wouldn't be what did the golddust motley contribute... but what did the BUTTER contribute? Maybe it's really a (oh, I dunno) hypo golddust, and therefore you have butters, golddusts, and ULTRA caramels?
What were the parents of the butter?
That's just my take on it.
The butter is from caramel motley to butter motley, no oddities in that clutch.
torsten
Too many yet too few!!!
i will start with some basic genetics: every living thing has a certain number of pairs of chromosomes. on each chromosomes there are 'sections' which code for different things, these 'sections' are on on both of each of the pair of chromosomes; these 'sections' are called genes. an allele is a particular copy of a gene. the locus is the 'section' of the chromosome where the gene is.
if a snake is het x then it carries one copy of the allele x, if a snake is homo x then it carries a copy of allele x on both of the pair of chromosomes.
ultra is an allele as is amel. these are different copies of the same gene. the allele ultra is recessive to normal, the allele amel is also recessive to normal. an ultramel is a snake which carries one copy of the ultra allele and one copy of the amel allele. this means that no copy of the 'NORMAL' allele is present at this locus. this is why ultra and amel are technically considered allelic and are NOT co-dominant to normal. they are co-dominant to each other which is why 3 morphs are possible with the different combinations of alleles at this locus: amel allele on both of the pair of chromosomes = homo amel, ultra allele on both of the pair of chromosomes = homo ultra, amel allele on one of the pair of chromosomes and the ultra allele on the other = ultramel (genetically het ultra het amel), the 4th and 5th combinations are one copy of amel or one copy of ultra and the other copy is normal this results in normals as ultra and amel are recessive to normal.
it is debated that ultras are visually indistinguishable from ultramels, if this is so then ultra is dominant to amel.
this works the same way with motley and stripe as both are alleles for a gene at another locus. and again it is debatable as to whether genetically a het stripe het motley looks any different to a homo motley.
other morphs such as anery, lavender, charcoal and so on are less complicated because there is currently only two known alleles at each locus: normal and then the morph, the morph is recessive to normal so only is visible if there are two copies of the allele present. if one copy is present then it is het.....
if it is a from an ultramel caramel motley Golddust Motley) X Amel caramel motley (butter motley) then:
each parent passes 1 copy of each gene to its offspring, the copies on both alleles on both of the pair of chromosomes have an equal chance of being passed on.
we will go through this a locus at a time:
motley/stripe locus:
according to this all offspring must be motleys as both parents carry only copies of this allele at this locus, therefore there is a chance of 1/1 (1 - certain) of each parent passing this allele onto its offspring therefore the offspring must carry 2 copies of the motley allele so all must be homo motley.
caramel locus:
the same is true for caramel: homo in both parents (2 copies in both) so each parent must pass on one copy of that allele, so all the offspring carries 2 copies so is homo caramel.
so far then all must be homo caramel motley.
then we get to the ultra/amel locus:
amel is homo in the butter( carries 2 copies of the amel allele), so it must pass on a amel allele as it only has amel alleles which it can pass on. the goldust is genetically het ultra, het amel (carries one copy of the ultra allele and one of the amel allele), there is therefore an equal chance that the golddust will pass on a copy of the amel allele or the ultra allele. there for theoretically half the offspring will receive the amel allele and half the ultra allele.
this means that 1/2 are homo caramel motley and carry one copy of ultra and one copy of amel which is an ultramel. (the amel allele from the butter and the ultra allele from the goldust).
this = 1/2 goldust motleys
the other half are also homo caramel motley but carry 2 copies of amel so are homo amel as well(one copy from the butter and the other copy from the goldust).
this = 1/2 butter motleys
s unless they both carry hets for something else they must be either butter motleys or goldust motleys.
if you wish for me to expand on any of this then i will try. sorry if there are any mistakes, hopefully someone will point them out earlier on for me if there are.
...........i just realised how sad i am to have learnt that............!!!!!!!! LOL
if a snake is het x then it carries one copy of the allele x, if a snake is homo x then it carries a copy of allele x on both of the pair of chromosomes.
ultra is an allele as is amel. these are different copies of the same gene. the allele ultra is recessive to normal, the allele amel is also recessive to normal. an ultramel is a snake which carries one copy of the ultra allele and one copy of the amel allele. this means that no copy of the 'NORMAL' allele is present at this locus. this is why ultra and amel are technically considered allelic and are NOT co-dominant to normal. they are co-dominant to each other which is why 3 morphs are possible with the different combinations of alleles at this locus: amel allele on both of the pair of chromosomes = homo amel, ultra allele on both of the pair of chromosomes = homo ultra, amel allele on one of the pair of chromosomes and the ultra allele on the other = ultramel (genetically het ultra het amel), the 4th and 5th combinations are one copy of amel or one copy of ultra and the other copy is normal this results in normals as ultra and amel are recessive to normal.
it is debated that ultras are visually indistinguishable from ultramels, if this is so then ultra is dominant to amel.
this works the same way with motley and stripe as both are alleles for a gene at another locus. and again it is debatable as to whether genetically a het stripe het motley looks any different to a homo motley.
other morphs such as anery, lavender, charcoal and so on are less complicated because there is currently only two known alleles at each locus: normal and then the morph, the morph is recessive to normal so only is visible if there are two copies of the allele present. if one copy is present then it is het.....
if it is a from an ultramel caramel motley Golddust Motley) X Amel caramel motley (butter motley) then:
each parent passes 1 copy of each gene to its offspring, the copies on both alleles on both of the pair of chromosomes have an equal chance of being passed on.
we will go through this a locus at a time:
motley/stripe locus:
according to this all offspring must be motleys as both parents carry only copies of this allele at this locus, therefore there is a chance of 1/1 (1 - certain) of each parent passing this allele onto its offspring therefore the offspring must carry 2 copies of the motley allele so all must be homo motley.
caramel locus:
the same is true for caramel: homo in both parents (2 copies in both) so each parent must pass on one copy of that allele, so all the offspring carries 2 copies so is homo caramel.
so far then all must be homo caramel motley.
then we get to the ultra/amel locus:
amel is homo in the butter( carries 2 copies of the amel allele), so it must pass on a amel allele as it only has amel alleles which it can pass on. the goldust is genetically het ultra, het amel (carries one copy of the ultra allele and one of the amel allele), there is therefore an equal chance that the golddust will pass on a copy of the amel allele or the ultra allele. there for theoretically half the offspring will receive the amel allele and half the ultra allele.
this means that 1/2 are homo caramel motley and carry one copy of ultra and one copy of amel which is an ultramel. (the amel allele from the butter and the ultra allele from the goldust).
this = 1/2 goldust motleys
the other half are also homo caramel motley but carry 2 copies of amel so are homo amel as well(one copy from the butter and the other copy from the goldust).
this = 1/2 butter motleys
s unless they both carry hets for something else they must be either butter motleys or goldust motleys.
if you wish for me to expand on any of this then i will try. sorry if there are any mistakes, hopefully someone will point them out earlier on for me if there are.
...........i just realised how sad i am to have learnt that............!!!!!!!! LOL
Blue Apple Herps
aka Matthew, PhD
Do you have anything charcoal based that you could breed it against? Still weird though even if it something charcoal. If it got the amel gene from both parents, then you'd expect something amel, which it clearly isn't. So that suggests that its ultramel (getting amel from the butter and ultra from the golddust). But even then, it doesn't resemble anything really ultramel.
I suppose it's possible that it could be an ultramel charcoal caramel? Anery masks caramel, so maybe charcoal would, too. And I'm not sure I've ever seen any ultramel charcoals. But even then, one would expect it to resemble a phantom in the same way ultramel anery resemble ghosts. Yours on the other hand appears to almost be hyper-melanistic (unless its just a dark pic).
Are you 100% sure that the sire is a golddust? No other breedings maybe? Regardless, my vote is that its charcoal related somehow...
Jay@PJCReptiles
"Quality Before Quantity"
Could it be possible that your Goldust is in fact an Ultra Caramel and not a Goldust. This could be the reason for you getting a couple of babies that look like Caramel Motleys. Just a suggestion. :shrugs:
Jay
Jay
Blue Apple Herps
aka Matthew, PhD
Could it be possible that your Goldust is in fact an Ultra Caramel and not a Goldust. This could be the reason for you getting a couple of babies that look like Caramel Motleys. Just a suggestion. :shrugs:
Jay
What Torsten said. All the offspring would be golddusts.
toyah
Snakes in designer genes
torsten thanks for your post but I'm well versed in basic genetics ... that is why this boy is odd as he doesn't fit into what was expected
No other breedings, no - they're definitely the parents. I do have some pewters and blizzards, I was thinking maybe a blizzard might be the best choice as that'll presumably give me a more definitive answer as to both the charcoal locus and the amel locus?
What colour eyes do ultramel charcoals have?
Definitely not ... for the reason given above, and also there's butter motleys too, so dad cannot be ultra caramel.
No other breedings, no - they're definitely the parents. I do have some pewters and blizzards, I was thinking maybe a blizzard might be the best choice as that'll presumably give me a more definitive answer as to both the charcoal locus and the amel locus?
What colour eyes do ultramel charcoals have?
Could it be possible that your Goldust is in fact an Ultra Caramel and not a Goldust. This could be the reason for you getting a couple of babies that look like Caramel Motleys. Just a suggestion. :shrugs:
Jay
Definitely not ... for the reason given above, and also there's butter motleys too, so dad cannot be ultra caramel.
Blue Apple Herps
aka Matthew, PhD
Do you have a charcoal het amel? I'm just thinking that not having a homozygous amel might be good to try and separate the two.
No idea. I don't think I've ever seen one.
cornmorphs
New member
i know this is how ITS MENT TO BE, but there are a few exceptions where the snakes simply dont read the rule book.
it is possible, its just not ment to happen and is very very unlikely.
i have seen amels from snow the anery for instance.