Goldust motley x butter motley = ?

[Blue Apple Herps]

i know this is how ITS MENT TO BE, but there are a few exceptions where the snakes simply dont read the rule book.
it is possible, its just not ment to happen and is very very unlikely.
i have seen amels from snow the anery for instance.

It would be very unlikely to happen though as every copy at the amel locus is mutated in the parents genome (one copy of ultra and three of amel between the two of them). Unless there was a bizarre mutation in the germ cells that caused it to revert to wild-type so that the amel locus was wild type.

But that snake doesn't look to be "just" homozygous caramel.

 

[toyah]

Do you have a charcoal het amel? I'm just thinking that not having a homozygous amel might be good to try and separate the two.

I don't, I'm afraid - only got pewter/hypo pewter/blizzard in the charcoal stuff. I could put him to a pewter and an amel instead?

 

[torsten]

i would go with the plain charcoal, so if it does carry charcoal(which the eyes certainly suggest) you wont b confused by having amel in the mix, just my view. either would work.

the genetics stuff was for 'starsevol' and i thought that there were a couple other people who suggested something that should not be possible so i thought i would show what should/could have been produced from those parents......

 

[Susan]

There is no way those 2 hatchlings are from a golddust motley X butter motley pairing. Yes, there is the rare chance of a spontaneous mutation...but not in 2 hatchlings from the same clutch. The first question that came to mind was what did you breed the female to last year...retained sperm would be the most obvious answer, or she was with another male motley.

 

[torsten]

There is no way those 2 hatchlings are from

2 hatchlings?? i only see one picture with one hatchling.......


good point susan, i had not thought about retained sperm...

is there any chance of some more pictures including more shots of the eyes and stuff as the one picture that i can see dosnt show up very well on my screen.....

 

[Calift]

It says in the OP that there are two of them. I would suggest it's a mutation (though thats very rare), but theres basically no way that could happen to two snakes in the same clutch. If the parents are what they are said to be, then the snakes are either butter motley or goldust or not from them at all. This is an interesting mystery!

Maybe if you could post a picture that was a bit brighter?

 

[tbtusk]

i found this thread with a picture of a n ultramel charcoal. The first picture shows pretty dark eyes, a lot like charcoals, but I think the lighting is a little off in the second one. I don't know, but the brightness in the eye looks more like a reflection than coloration. :shrugs:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71636&highlight=ultramel+charcoal

Retianed sperm seems like a likely idea. Something weird's going on anyway

 

[toyah]

There is no way those 2 hatchlings are from a golddust motley X butter motley pairing. Yes, there is the rare chance of a spontaneous mutation...but not in 2 hatchlings from the same clutch. The first question that came to mind was what did you breed the female to last year...retained sperm would be the most obvious answer, or she was with another male motley.

Good point - I'll find out what the girl was bred with last year (it's not my clutch, belongs to a friend).

2 hatchlings?? i only see one picture with one hatchling.......


good point susan, i had not thought about retained sperm...

is there any chance of some more pictures including more shots of the eyes and stuff as the one picture that i can see dosnt show up very well on my screen.....

Yep, there's another one, only got one photo though. I'll take some more next week

 

[toyah]

Okay, finally found this thread to update it. I was incorrect btw and this is the only dark baby, there aren't two.

Mother was bred to a caramel motley last year, and produced butter motley and caramel motley babies. I've had a look at some of the offspring from this year and last year, and all are typical caramels, butters, ultramels, with the correct eye colour, very dissimilar to this boy.

I will get some more pictures of him hopefully tonight, but having a proper look at his eyes they appear black indoors, but exposing him to light reveals a red tinted pupil and a blue iris - both VERY dark colours but visible in the right light.

 

[Susan]

I'm betting it's a caramel motley from retained sperm. Give it another shed or two to lighten up and yellow up a bit.

 

[toyah]

Will do Susan. I've never bred or kept caramels before, do their eyes tend to pale down too as they grow? It's certainly very pretty!

 

[El Jefe]

I agree with Susan on this one. Probably caramel motley and with the ratsnake...I mean ultramel influcence it looks funky. :sidestep:

 

[toyah]

I agree with Susan on this one. Probably caramel motley and with the ratsnake...I mean ultramel influcence it looks funky. :sidestep:

Well if it's a caramel motley there's no ultramel influence on it ....

 

[El Jefe]

Well if it's a caramel motley there's no ultramel influence on it ....

I know that. I was merely saying that some people think the ultramel/ultra came from ratsnake. Therefore, if ratsnake blood was truly in the history somewhere you may see some of that influence in future generations. Since it cannot be het for ratsnake, the ratsnake influence may be present and give a regular caramel motley a different sort of caramel motley look. All hypothetical of course since the history of ultramel/ultra is a little fuzzy depending on who you talk to.

 

[toyah]

I know that. I was merely saying that some people think the ultramel/ultra came from ratsnake. Therefore, if ratsnake blood was truly in the history somewhere you may see some of that influence in future generations. Since it cannot be het for ratsnake, the ratsnake influence may be present and give a regular caramel motley a different sort of caramel motley look. All hypothetical of course since the history of ultramel/ultra is a little fuzzy depending on who you talk to.

I quite believe ultra is from rats, but if the caramel's the dad from retained sperm then the ultramel isn't related - he's just mummy's new boyfriend rather than genetically related from the point of view of my boy if that makes sense? (there's no ultra documented in the history of the butter mother or the caramel sire of last years clutch afaik)

 

[blichtenhan]

golddust

I suspect it may be a golddust motley. The first clutch I hatched out of golddust motley babies was 3 or 4 years ago. I was very disappointed, and had no idea what was going on, as all the babies looked like caramel motleys, they were unbelievably dark!! It may be these 2 are males, and the more golddust looking ones are females.
The description of the eyes sounds like a golddust. But some more pics would be very helpful, and I would also like to know how old the snakes are at the time of the picture being taken, my golddust mots lightened up to what I expected golddust mots to look like after a couple of sheds.
This year, I hatched out some ultra caramel motleys, as well as golddust, and there was a big difference in color between the male ultra caramel motleys and the females, and that is still true after several sheds.
I am at work, so I cannot include any pics right now, but there are some posted on kingsnake.com photos (look under user name of blichtenhan) of the baby golddust motleys and how dark they were when they first hatched. And notice that some are definitely much darker than others.
Its funny, but I do not remember hatching out any that dark the last couple of years.

 

[El Jefe]

I quite believe ultra is from rats, but if the caramel's the dad from retained sperm then the ultramel isn't related - he's just mummy's new boyfriend rather than genetically related from the point of view of my boy if that makes sense? (there's no ultra documented in the history of the butter mother or the caramel sire of last years clutch afaik)

Got it. I wasn't clear at all...I even confused myself. Sorry. I was speaking of an either/or situation. Last years breeding could produce caramel motley..no ratnsnake influence, straight up caramel motley. This years breeding with no retained sperm could produce a caramel motley looking animal (ratsnake influence) that is probably a golddust motley.

 

[Susan]

Will do Susan. I've never bred or kept caramels before, do their eyes tend to pale down too as they grow? It's certainly very pretty!

Their eyes do get lighter as they age as well. Remember, at hatchling, many a caramel has been confused with an anery, they can be that dark. Here are 2 caramel motleys that I hatched out this year for comparison. I has some that were lighter, and I don't have any photos of them any older as they were all problem feeders for me. You can search for ArpeggioAngel's caramel striped motley female, one of the three that actually survived from my clutch, to see how she has lightened up. The last photo is her, before her first shed.

 

[Rich Z]

This snake is from goldust motley to butter motley. There are two like this - the other siblings are easily identifiable as butter motleys and goldust motleys. But what is this?

Do you have any better pics? Not trying to belittle your camera skills, but this photo is considerably underexposed and I really can't see enough detail to even hazard a rough guess.

 

[toyah]

Their eyes do get lighter as they age as well.

Thanks Susan I still can't decide if it's going to be a caramel motley from retained sperm or a dark eyed goldust, but at least it sounds a bit more understandable to me now. These orange snakes are confusing! (this baby is now one of my only two visual caramel based corns).

Do you have any better pics? Not trying to belittle your camera skills, but this photo is considerably underexposed and I really can't see enough detail to even hazard a rough guess.

Haha Rich, I am totally not taking responsibility for that photo - that was taken by my friend. He's just shed and has paled down a lot, so new piccy here:

I will try to catch him in sunlight sometime as I think that will make life easier for me. So he looks more normally caramel now, you can just about make out the deep ruby pupils in that photo and the dark green/blue to the irises. So caramel or goldust?