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Studies on dog behavior!

KJUN said:
First, you'll have to come up with a defendable definition of "adeequate opportunity." Second, you'll have to decide if you are going for trophy, management, or quantity hunts...and realize that the populations of those 3 options is directly opposite of what deer watchers would want. How to resolve quantity (watchers) with low populations (trophy management)? Furthermore, how do you hunt in an area with high numbers of nonconsumptive users? Limiting it to archery can work until a school bus of kids sees a "pet" deer bleed and dragging internal organs with an arrow hanging out of it (i.e., Chicago).
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I don't agree...IGNORED!

KJUN said:
Soooo, that could become a bigger argument than dog beating!
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Sweet...here we go!
 
Ricky87 said:
BTW, I don't live anywhere near venomous animals, so this training doesn't have the end-game that it does for Mike. That was just one suggestion, and I'm sure there are plenty more out there.
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From: http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Newsroom/News_2003/News_2003_Q3/snakes_091203.htm
New Hampshire Fish and Game Department said:
New Hampshire has one naturally occurring venomous snake, the timber rattlesnake.
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I would worry if I were you. Also you have admitted, presumably for your brother as well, that different situations require different methods and thus "positive reinforcement" is not the only was to adequately train a dog (be it a bird dog or another dog for that matter).
 
Ricky87 said:
There's no point in establishing a fear of snakes, because you can never control to what lengths she will go to extinguish that fear.
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Yes, there is. If "run away" is an option, they'll do it. If not, they might try to kill it.

So don't put Fluffy and Scales in the shower together, and it should be fine.

BTW, my adult corn nailed my dog on the nose one day (big mishap, don't ask) and she's pretty damn snake broke now, and no, she has no urge to kill him. Only to flee. She's a soft dog, so it only took one bite to scare the bejesus out of her.

If you SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY think your dog will shrug off instinctive urges to seize and kill a moving animal because you taught them "leave it" with rewards only, I think you're in for a nasty surprise someday.

I can call my dog off of a squirrel 3 feet from her open jaws (done it)... but I didn't just use rewards. (No, I didn't fry her with an e-collar or use one at all.) I still wouldn't count on that command keeping her safe from harm when she's roaming out of site and I'm not there.
 
mike17l said:
I would worry if I were you. Also you have admitted, presumably for your brother as well, that different situations require different methods and thus "positive reinforcement" is not the only was to adequately train a dog (be it a bird dog or another dog for that matter).
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My grandfather is an expert on New England's reptiles and amphibians and their locations. If I see a Rattlesnake than I will give you 10 billion dollars. Their only native to rocky areas, and even then their very, very scarce!. I'm from here, so I'll take my chances!.

Emily1188 said:
If you SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY think your dog will shrug off instinctive urges to seize and kill a moving animal because you taught them "leave it" with rewards only, I think you're in for a nasty surprise someday.
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"Instinctive urges to seize and kill a moving animal"?. What, do you own a Chupacabra?. Ciana has no killer instinct, because of our use of positive reinforcement. She won't even leave a perimeter of us by more than 30 feet when we're outside, and we train a lot with distractions.

Emily1188 said:
I can call my dog off of a squirrel 3 feet from her open jaws (done it)... but I didn't just use rewards. (No, I didn't fry her with an e-collar or use one at all.) I still wouldn't count on that command keeping her safe from harm when she's roaming out of site and I'm not there.
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If Ciana had a killer instinct I would never let her roam when I'm not there. I don't let her roam anyway, because for me personally I feel obliged to make sure she isn't a threat to the public at large. It's just not safe for any dog, IMO.
 
Ricky87 said:
"Instinctive urges to seize and kill a moving animal"?. What, do you own a Chupacabra?. Ciana has no killer instinct, because of our use of positive reinforcement. She won't even leave a perimeter of us by more than 30 feet when we're outside, and we train a lot with distractions.

If Ciana had a killer instinct I would never let her roam when I'm not there. I don't let her roam anyway, because for me personally I feel obliged to make sure she isn't a threat to the public at large. It's just not safe for any dog, IMO.
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You cannot remove an instinct with any kind of training. You can inhibit expression of an instinct. I have no relatives who can tell me this, I've done the studying myself for my Honours Degree in Psychology and I'm not too old and mad to remember some of what I spent time learning.
 
Ricky87 said:
"Instinctive urges to seize and kill a moving animal"?. What, do you own a Chupacabra?. Ciana has no killer instinct, because of our use of positive reinforcement. She won't even leave a perimeter of us by more than 30 feet when we're outside, and we train a lot with distractions.
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Done playing nice. You need a HUGE WAKE UP CALL. You live with a predator and NO AMOUNT of positive reinforcement changes that fact. And it is a fact. Predator. Millions of years spent killing for a living. Open your dog's mouth, look at her teeth, and realize that no matter how many cookies you put in their, it is and will always be designed to catch and kill prey.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Ricky87 said:
If Ciana had a killer instinct I would never let her roam when I'm not there. I don't let her roam anyway, because for me personally I feel obliged to make sure she isn't a threat to the public at large. It's just not safe for any dog, IMO.
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Roaming at large isn't safe? Gawd, I'm shocked. It's also illegal, too.

I was refer to hunting scenarios, off-leash search and rescue work, off leash hikes, etc...
 
Ricky87 said:
My grandfather is an expert on New England's reptiles and amphibians and their locations. If I see a Rattlesnake than I will give you 10 billion dollars. Their only native to rocky areas, and even then their very, very scarce!. I'm from here, so I'll take my chances!.
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I am doing a survey, do you by chance have an uncle that is an expert in nuclear physics?
 
Hey, by the way... you know that cute thing your dog does, where you throw the toy, and she grabs it and shakes the living hell out of it?

That's prey drive. Guess what the running is for? Chasing. Guess what the grabbing is for. Seizing. Guess what the shake is for? Killing. It pretty much demolishes the spinal column of a small animal.

Chasing, seizing, and killing small prey. It is genetic and it is undeniable. I'm still floored you would deny that.

Please tell me next my snakes can be friends with mice with enough clicker training.
 
Emily1188 said:
Hey, by the way... you know that cute thing your dog does, where you throw the toy, and she grabs it and shakes the living hell out of it?

That's prey drive. Guess what the running is for? Chasing. Guess what the grabbing is for. Seizing. Guess what the shake is for? Killing. It pretty much demolishes the spinal column of a small animal.

Chasing, seizing, and killing small prey. It is genetic and it is undeniable. I'm still floored you would deny that.

Please tell me next my snakes can be friends with mice with enough clicker training.
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Silly snakes are deaf, you have to use an e-collar to train them to do that. :sidestep:
 
I'm hoping to start Rosie on rabbits in a month or so, given that she's a lurcher those instincts should come in very handy.
 
diamondlil said:
I'm hoping to start Rosie on rabbits in a month or so, given that she's a lurcher those instincts should come in very handy.
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I had Cajun retrieving a rabbit this morning. Ill pull it out of the fridge today or tomorrow and let him have some more fun.
 
All dogs are animals and animals are unpredictable no matter how well they are trained or how they have been trained. Training conditions a specific response to an input- sit means sit, stay means stay, and so on; but every animal is not obedient 100% of the time especially when we aren't there or something like an animal sparks instincts they all have-- kinda like boys in their 20's;) I have used an e-collar with only one dog who I still happily own and she is no longer my worst nighmare because this worked for her- best money I have ever spent. My other dog a lab naturally and by his breed wants to please and therefore was easier and faster to train, but my crazy skeeter was a barking, pottying, chewing, nipping little beast who came to me after 5 homes in 5 months not including her breeders home. We tried positive reinforcement measures for a year and a half giving a command and offering a treat when she obeyed...though mostly obeying was not her thing. If we left she barked, chewed, and pottyed in her crate until we came home, neighbors complained, and the man of the house had had it with her. I went to my vet in literal tears who recommended the collar that has kept skeeter as my pet and she is usually now an absolute angel; but to say a dog would never........fill in the blank is crap- of course they will if you give them long enough or the right input comes around to show their true colors.
 
I hope Rosie is a dog and not a horse, lol! I missed the part where you talked about her. Sure does bring up an interesting mental image, though!
 
Emily1188 said:
This just isn't true. A choke chain can give a quick pop correction that you cannot (and should not!) give with flat buckle collar. I've used a choke chain to curb pulling and maintain focus - not my first tool of choice, but it has its merits.

As for the e-collar thing, that's just plain silly. Can you stop a dog 300 yards away from you chasing game dead in it's tracks? Can you tell a dog that can't even see you or hear to "come back now"? Can you condition a dog to fear snakes without him fearing you? Sure, you can whip a dog every time he sniffs out a snake - and then he'll go bolting from you. Great. Stim him with the collar, and it has nothing to do with you, just the snake.

I agree, lazy idiots put these on their dogs and shock the hell out of them for every little thing. However, very not lazy and non-idiots use for them great things, and with any sort of high-level shocking going on.

*decidedly pro e-collar* :duck:
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Why shouldn't you use a normal collar to correct a dog? It doesn't tighten around their neck like a choke chain, which can actually cut off the supply of air. Normal collars do not.

And to have a dog out of hearing distance is a difficult thing, they have very good hearing.

As for training it to not go near snakes, use a non venomous snake first. Introduce the two, and train the dog to stay AWAY from the snake. No one ever said anything about whipping your dog, that's just cruel.

Personally, I am surprised that this thread is still up. >___> It seems like a lot of arguing and insults.
 
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