ObamaCare and me By Zane F Pollard, MD

[mike17l]

Bunch of hypocritical SOB's. More of the same, "My rights are more important than yours" garbage I've been reading in the entire thread...AND the others...

I have only seen one person call anyone specific any name in this thread. Please enlighten us, show us, quote us, who else has done this besides you?

 

[tyflier]

I have only seen one person call anyone specific any name in this thread. Please enlighten us, show us, quote us, who else has done this besides you?

Did I say anything about specific in my last post? No? I didn't think so either...

What I SAID was a "category of individuals". That means a group, race, class, ideaology, religion...whatever have you. You don't really need me to go back and quote every conservative post that insults liberals, do you? You might as well just re-read the thread...

 

[tyflier]

I have only seen one person call anyone specific any name in this thread. Please enlighten us, show us, quote us, who else has done this besides you?

You don't see a whole lot of posts in this thread that refer to conservatives directly as gun-toting, bible-thumping, racist pigs, do you? You don't see a whole lot of posts saying "anyone that loves God and their guns too much is a redneck, no good, ignorant, foolish, in-bred, racist." do you?

Nah...I didn't see any of that either...

 

[mike17l]

Did I say anything about specific in my last post? No? I didn't think so either...

What I SAID was a "category of individuals". That means a group, race, class, ideaology, religion...whatever have you. You don't really need me to go back and quote every conservative post that insults liberals, do you? You might as well just re-read the thread...

Exactly, "we" have not directly insulted "you" any way shape or form. We have attacked the ideas of liberalism. You said this:

Bunch of hypocritical SOB's. More of the same, "My rights are more important than yours" garbage I've been reading in the entire thread...AND the others...

As well as telling a member of the forum that he should "F" himself and kill himself, you also told a "group" of members that they could kill themselves. There are only a few, maybe only one person involved in this thread that is making any type of personal attack.

You sir are a class act. A perfect example of a gentleman.

 

[tyflier]

Exactly, "we" have not directly insulted "you" any way shape or form. We have attacked the ideas of liberalism. You said this:



As well as telling a member of the forum that he should "F" himself and kill himself, you also told a "group" of members that they could kill themselves. There are only a few, maybe only one person involved in this thread that is making any type of personal attack.

You sir are a class act. A perfect example of a gentleman.

You, sir, need to learn how to read. I didn't tell KJUN to kill himself. I told him to grow up. Kill yourself was a sarcastic option that was never intended to be taken seriously. But, as per usual...people will take things how they want to in order to fit them into their preconcieved ideas. I also never told a whole group of people to kill themselves. What I said was that it would not upset me if you did. And it wouldn't. And I remain unapologetic.

If you identify with people that would kill themselves because I mentioned it as an option, than I understand your being offended. Just like anyone that identifies temselves with the more liberal issues and causes SHOULD be offended at the things that got posted in this topic. And it isn't ust KJUN doing it.

I haven't called any individual a name. If you identify yourself as a Hypocritical SOB, than I completely understand why that would anger you. But I won't apologize for it. In this thread...evidently, anything goes, as long as you don't mention who you're deirectly speaking to...and blieve in conservative principles.

Sorry, but you cannot slander a group of people and expect people that identify with that group to not be offended. It just doesn't work that way. If it was said in that manner about any other group of people, it would be unacceptable, and that INCLUDES saying it conservatives.

I stand by every word, insult, wishful thinking, or "attack" that I have typed. And you can STILL kiss my royal white rump...

 

[Pruddock]

You can all choose to kill yourselves, and I wouldn't be upset about it, nor would I be apologetic.

Bunch of hypocritical SOB's. More of the same, "My rights are more important than yours" garbage I've been reading in the entire thread...AND the others...

Wow man... wow. I used to have so much respect for you when I first came to this forum. Your true colors have come out in this thread and they're not pretty. You realize that this stuff will be up on the thread for a long time and people can quote it to show how extreme you seem to get when you get emotional right? The funniest this is you seem to take the actual label of "liberal" to be the biggest insult. The other names I've seen/can remember were "lazy" and "thieves". Almost all of the other stereotypical liberal qualities/insults seem to be ones you've labeled yourself with in your own posts out of sarcasm. I honestly think you got yourself waayyy to worked up about this. It's a freakin' internet forum man... oke:

 

[Pruddock]

What if I started a topic about "Hasteful Christians at it again" and filled my post with stereotypical SLANDER about Christians?

I don't think you've started one about it, but I can definitely remember you stereotyping us all as being hate filled, unaccepting, and relatively harsh people (I'm paraphrasing from memory). I don't think most people would see me that way.

Or, "Homosexuals destroying the nation" and went on about how "sinful" and "unnatural" it is to be a homosexual?

I wouldn't suggest that as we have a fairly large homosexual community, relatively speaking, on this forum. I also think you'd make it hard for yourself to sell animals to a large group of people...

Chris,

I think what has happened is that, and I'm saying this again, you've gotten WAYY too emotional involved in this thread and are taking just about everything said here to heart. I know you'll never admit it and probably rip me apart for saying it, but from you posts and your actions I'd say that is a pretty decent observation. I also want to go ahead and bet that if somebody on here with a conservative viewpoint had told you to f-off and grow up or kill yourself, you would have made a huge fuss about it. So, if you don't want your words to be taken the wrong way, don't say them. Remain calm and post something that isn't going to be read out of context if it's not what you mean. Now, your whole claim that if one of us actually did kill ourselves that you wouldn't me remorseful is just plain messed up. I've had issues with a lot of people but I've never said I wouldn't care if they killed his or herself. That's just plain wrong man. Actually, if somebody I knew and had an issue with ended up killing themself I would probably take it hard in a completely different way because I don't want anybody to leave this world with me thinking that I hated them or didn't care what happened to them. I would hope that you actually WOULD be regretful if that were to happen, or else I truly fear for anybody you rub that reflection off on. That's a sad way to live...

 

[jazzgeek]

I honestly think you got yourself waayyy to worked up about this. It's a freakin' internet forum man... oke:

So claims the boy who got all worked up when he erroneously perceived that I insulted his Christian faith.

Waaaaaah. :crying:


:sobstory:



Dale

 

[Pruddock]

So claims the boy who got all worked up when he erroneously perceived that I insulted his Christian faith.

Waaaaaah. :crying:


:sobstory:



Dale

Dale, you do realize that when I got "all worked up" I still was speaking and writing from a state of mind where I was asking you respectfully to drop it. I never got out of hand or flipped in the way that Chris seemed to come across in his recent posts.

I also enjoyed the way you referred to me as a "boy" to make it seem like I'm a little kid. Much appreciated

Also never heard back from you on my last post to you. Guess you just missed that one huh

You both have now referred to "us" as being childish yet I've perceived both of you being the ones to throw tantrums (Chris) or try and use a quick and erroneous post like the one you just posted to try and defend yourselves. Its fun to sip gin and watch it happen:grin01:

 

[jazzgeek]

I also enjoyed the way you referred to me as a "boy" to make it seem like I'm a little kid. Much appreciated

Also never heard back from you on my last post to you. Guess you just missed that one huh

Nope, it's actually the reason I returned in kind.

For every "you're getting old", there is an equal and opposite "boy".

With wisdom gained from experience, you'll come to understand this. oke:


Dale

(ps - Thank you for walking right into that one. Much obliged.)

 

[tyflier]

Payton-
The word "liberal" doesn't offend me one bit. In fact, I find it quite appealing, being representative of generous, healthy, kind, emotional...things of that nature.

It's when the word "liberal" is associated as lazy, theiving, "scumbags", if you will, and folks that consider themselves liberal(which I do) are blanketly insulted with those terms, that yes...I get offended, I become emotional, and I get irate.

If you don't like that...tough. It's the hypocrisy of the whole thing that gets me. There's a thread out there, from a conservative, that is bashing a website(you participated) because they didn't ask questions in a very specific manner. "You" whined that it was eluding to things that we didn't know, or bother to ask. THIS thread, is started from, and continued on with, false claims and accusations from "your side", insults, and falsities.

Yet...when I or Dale respond in the EXACT SAME MANNER...you post drivel like you did above...my "true coors" etc, etc etc...Listen, you canf eel anyway you'd like about me. Truth be known I've lost all respect for you, KJUN, mike17l(whatever it is), and several others over these threads based entirely on your hypocritical comments, your false accusations, and your holier-than-thou attitudes. So frankly, I couldn't possibly care less about what your opinion is of me. Frankly, it can't POSSIBLY be lower than my opinion of you. So save your breath.

Your damn right I got emotional, and I'm STILL emotional about it. NONE of you know me or any dam,n thing about me, yet you're perfectly content and happy to accuse me of being lazy, being a theif trying to take from you, being a slob, being someone that can;t stand on my own two feet. Yes ALL of these insults have been hurled at me, directly or indirectly over the last week.

And I have stood there, and responded with respect, with facts, with supported and TRUE representations. Until I finally lose my temper, after the ump-teenth PURPOSEFUL attempt to FORCE that.

Well...you got what you wanted. I lost my temper. It's still lost. As far as the participants in this thread are concerned that saw fit to continue to insult me(and still are, with your drivel above)...it will remain lost.

As for the homosexual remarks...I'm not the one on the political sidwe that continues to try and deny homosexuals their basic freedoms and human rights. How about you, there, Sister Christian? What's YOUR stance on gay rights?

 

[danielle]

I can understand that. It just seems to me that we end up paying for healthcare one way or the other. Wouldn't UHC be more preventative care( something it seems a lot of insurers turn a blind eye to), so to speak. Maybe solving or minimizing healthcare problems before they get big, ugly and much more expensive.

Kyle, Many believe this, but its not true. As of matter of fact insurance companies now pay for more preventative care than any UHC program abroad. Angioplasties before the need for bypass surgery, getting those ultra resolution CAT scans other countries can't afford to catch tumors before their cancerous, regular testing like mammograms, colonoscopies, prostate exams cough, and others are things one would either outright be denied in say Canada or have to wait months for because theres one machine per province or in many cases none at all forcing people to travel and endure these travel expenses.

Canada again for example treats those big emergency situations on the spot just like we do here, but the problem is if you need knee surgery, radiation, an MRI or CAT scan your going to wait 3 months minimum. Thats 3 months you may not be able to work, in chronic pain, and unable to contribute to your family emotionally or physically and their version of workman's comp is worse than ours because they have less money to deal with these other social situations. If its cancer you have to wait 3-9 months to have diagnosed this often is precious time lost you could have had it already diagnosed and treated here.

Taxes are only slightly higher in Canada true, but look at the cost of goods. They say our drugs are more expensive here and thats true because we give a lot of medications away overseas and we pay for our own R&D which is an additional cost reflected in our drug prices, but look at a card, book, or poster priced in Canada and then in the US. Its 2 to 3 times as much in Canada for goods than here. That goes for clothes, shoes, printer paper you name it it twice as much. If we all paid twice as much for our goods that is the same or more than paying 300-400 a month for our own health care plan so whats the difference?

I think the difference is we can choose to pay that 300-400 for health care and they can't choose to pay twice as much to live buying their basic needs. We can have health care now that already covers more and is delivered faster, we have more specialists per person than any other country, we can afford and have a military, decent roads (drive abroad you'll never be so thankful), and many employers that pay a decent chunk of our health care expenses as it is. The UHC programs abroad have lists of drugs that can't be prescribed because their not cost effective while here insurance companies will for the most part pay for these newer and in many cases less invasive, more effective, and fewer side effect drugs.

I'll say it again our systems not perfect, not by a long shot but its also not as bad as people think in comparison to UHC programs.

 

[Nova_C]

Taxes are only slightly higher in Canada true, but look at the cost of goods. They say our drugs are more expensive here and thats true because we give a lot of medications away overseas and we pay for our own R&D which is an additional cost reflected in our drug prices, but look at a card, book, or poster priced in Canada and then in the US. Its 2 to 3 times as much in Canada for goods than here. That goes for clothes, shoes, printer paper you name it it twice as much. If we all paid twice as much for our goods that is the same or more than paying 300-400 a month for our own health care plan so whats the difference?

Be careful about talking about the economics of another nation like this, because it's pretty clear you don't know why the prices are like that.

The first reason is currency. Books for example: Canadians paid, on average, about 30% - 40% more for retail price on books for years. But during most of those years, our dollar was worth 0.65 to the American dollar. As the dollar rose, those prices began to equalize. They never quite made it, but the difference is not as big as it used to be now that the Canadian dollar is worth about 90 cents US. You'll also notice that Canada's minimum wage across the provinces is uniformly higher than the minimum wage across the States. Again, mainly as a result of our currency being worth less than the American currency.

The second reason is population distribution. Canada is massive. Massive like you have no idea. We also have 1/10 the population of the Unites States, so goods cost more to transport since it's larger distances from distribution center to retail site. Alberta is a province large than most nations, yet there are only two major urban sites in the entire province, so companies place their distro sites there, but then have to transport them hundreds of miles every day to supermarkets and gas stations all over the province.

The third reason is simple greed. Cars cost about 20% - 30% more here all the time because simply, they always have. Car companies have been selling cars for more for years, so why change it? They know Canadians are going to pay for it, so why lower it? Of course, that's beginning to change. Between the devaluing of the American dollar and the recession, Canadians have been taking car companies to task in a lot of ways, so prices were coming down a lot before the recession and, of course, since the recession they've dropped even more. A base model Ford Ranger used to be about $17K, for example. Now you can get one for $13K.

Going back to what you said, the biggest WTF about you remarks concerning the cost of goods that I had was, how would a shortage of funds for social programs increase the cost of the retail price of goods? Wouldn't the increase be in the sales tax on items?

The federal government has a 5% sales tax on goods and services. That tax is withheld for a lot of items like feminine hygiene and, I think, required medical products, but it's on most everything else. Alberta currently has no provincial sales tax, so I pay 5% sales tax on what I buy. Do you pay a sales tax, Danielle? How much is it?

If you want to talk about overtaxation in Canada, then look at the price of fuel. I currently pay 0.92 cents a liter for gas, or about $3.50 a gallon (I think). All of the difference between the Canadian and American costs for gas can be described as taxes. It makes up about 45% of the cost of gasoline. European nations are much the same.

When it comes down to it, though, the real information, the real meat of what were talking about is spending power. How much do people in Canada really buy when compared to the US? I'm not sure, but I'll bet the difference is less than you think.

In regards to health care in Canada, yep, there are major problems with it. Problems that have to be dealt with, have to be remedied. But here's the thing: Over 86% of Canadians would prefer the system be improved by public means, rather than private means. That's a pretty strong statistic considering the demonization of the Canadian system by US pundits.
(Source: http://www.healthzone.ca/health/article/679824)

Concerning the Canadians seeking private health care in the United States, following the outcry regarding wait times for heart surgery in Vancouver, the BC government did something very interesting. They offered to pay for British Colombians needing heart surgery to go to the University of Washington hospital in Seattle for surgery to 'skip the line' so to speak. This was done to relieve pressure on the waiting list while a new clinic was being built and staffed. It was going to cost a lot more than treating locally and they made the initial deal with the University hospital to treat 50 people. They had plans in place to increase it to 250 over time, but it never happened. Why?

Only nine people chose to leave Canada for surgery, despite the government still paying for it.

A survey of over 17,000 Canadians found that 0.5% of them had sought care in the US, and that less than 1/4th of that 0.5% had traveled there for that reason. So about a tenth of a percent of the Canadian population is traveling to the US for care. How many Americans are seeking medical treatment outside of America? I think that's a very pertinent question.

(Source: http://dsp-psd.communication.gc.ca/Collection/Statcan/82F0068X/about_e.pdf)

This is all academic, though, because there are many UHC programs to choose from, including the Swiss system which is still run completely by private insurance. The Swiss spend more than any other European country on health care, but from what I've gathered the US prefers to maintain private ownership of the health care industry over making it more affordable, so it's a match made in heaven.

 

[danielle]

Nova, I pay 6% in salestax after a recent hike from 5%. Now to the cost of goods. The differences I am sure have a lot to do with what you described, but yes funding social programs is rolled in too. If an industry pays a higher tax and already is receiving the product at an inflated price they have to further inflate the price to cover these taxes and the original cost to turn a profit. Your taxes are higher to cover health care therefore retailors charge more

What you have to realize is many people here do not want to wait for heart surgery, cancer treatments, dignostics like MRI's and CAT scans, and other important health care needs because we're not used to that and worry these waits could be the difference between life or death or between a full recovery and not. What does Canada do when a patient can't work because their waiting for knee surgery for example?

Its nice your country offers to pay for surgery here when your country can't provide, but that drives up the cost of health care more in your country, uses more government funds, and takes funds away from the needs of other citizens long term. If our insurance goes like yours will Canada still get to use us when they need to? I get you like your system and I'm glad it suits you and your family, but our system equally suits me thats all

 

[Nova_C]

Nova, I pay 6% in salestax after a recent hike from 5%. Now to the cost of goods. The differences I am sure have a lot to do with what you described, but yes funding social programs is rolled in too. If an industry pays a higher tax and already is receiving the product at an inflated price they have to further inflate the price to cover these taxes and the original cost to turn a profit. Your taxes are higher to cover health care therefore retailors charge more

I don't know the corporate tax rates, actually, but because of UHC, businesses see a lower cost of doing business. GM and Chrysler made a big deal out of the fact that labor is cheaper here because of Canada's health care system. You may be correct that corporate taxes are higher in Canada, thereby pushing up the cost of goods, but like I said - we have a higher minimum wage, not to mention even the poorest people have health care, which means businesses have (maybe) a more reliable work force in the lower pay grades. That last point is conjecture, but I'm at work and can't research it at the moment.

What you have to realize is many people here do not want to wait for heart surgery, cancer treatments, dignostics like MRI's and CAT scans, and other important health care needs because we're not used to that and worry these waits could be the difference between life or death or between a full recovery and not. What does Canada do when a patient can't work because their waiting for knee surgery for example?

Its nice your country offers to pay for surgery here when your country can't provide, but that drives up the cost of health care more in your country, uses more government funds, and takes funds away from the needs of other citizens long term. If our insurance goes like yours will Canada still get to use us when they need to? I get you like your system and I'm glad it suits you and your family, but our system equally suits me thats all

And that's great that it suits you, but there's more than just you to consider. I approached this debate from a perspective of a populace that almost uniformly supports our health care system. Clearly there is a very large portion of the US population, a majority by some counts, that want the US system to change. If the change Obama is proposing is wrong, well, that's for your government to determine, but the sheer amount of misinformation and bald faced lies coming from the conservative ranks among the government and lobbyists is, frankly, astounding.

I do respect your position and the experience you have. I am not a health care professional and so can only do my research based on published studies and statistics. My only first hand accounts with Canadian health care have been wonderful, but anecdotal evidence is weak, if not irrelevant, so I have not challenged much of what you said. I typically attack errors, or misunderstandings, or, in the case of KJUN, inflammatory rhetoric.

 

[ForkedTung]

If the change Obama is proposing is wrong, well, that's for your government to determine, but the sheer amount of misinformation and bald faced lies coming from the conservative ranks among the government and lobbyists is, frankly, astounding.

The bolded is pretty much what most of these threads have been dealing with.

 

[Pruddock]

Chris,

I would like you to look at your last statement towards me and your opinion of me and how I've threatened or insulted you directly. Now, I would like you to go back through this thread and point out to me where I ever said anything like that? The worst that I did was refer to Dale as an "old" guy which he recipricated in return with "boy" and that was that. Other than that I told you that you assumed and I pointed out that ya'll scream for me to post sources whenever I post any sort of statistic, but when you post things like "only 1/3 of Americans receive decent healthcare" you never back it up. You just addressed me as if I've been bashing you and being hypocritical. I, for one, see very little hypocritical statements that I've made and if you read through my posts in this I feel like I've been quite moderate on the situation. I hope that you had a chance to sleep on what has been said in the post, and that your "can't get any lower" opinion of me will turn around a little bit. Other than that I still am sticking to the claim that yesterday you were getting way too sensitive about this stuff. (Repeat...) It's an online forum and not that big of a deal...

 

[Pruddock]

The bolded is pretty much what most of these threads have been dealing with.

I think there has been plenty of this on both sides of the equation. I agree that the conservatives have jumped to some extremes with the implications of the death panels and coverage of illegals. But, I also choose to look at what they're saying and realize that the vagueness of the bill does allow for those things to happen if funds become tight, and they will. I think the problem comes when, like you said, people take them as complete truth and not the if/then statements that they should be seen as.

I think that the democrats were doing this during the Bush administration and the republicans were the ones screaming liars. It just comes in turn with the changing of the Presidential office. I think that at all times you have to look at what they're saying, read the parts of the bill they're referring to for yourself, and come to your OWN conclusions.

So, in short, both parties are using individuals' stories to try and help their cause saying that ALL Americans have had this experience. I know I've done so with myself in another thread about my own experience with healthcare, and I know that the president actually lied the other day to congress with a story of a person who was dropped from insurance and died. It will always happen this way and pointing the finger really doesn't do anything. Understanding where the other person is coming from seems to be the best way to make any headway.

I think that what congress (or at least a few members) is finally doing now is probably the best way to approach things. Find the points you agree on and MOVE on those, rather than debating this huge bill for the rest of the congressional session without coming to a conclusion and getting anything done. Most likely, the bipartisan points are probably the ones that need to be dealt with the most, and the extreme points nobody can agree on are too vast for the government to handle anyways.

Just my .02 cents after reading back through this thread, parts of the different bills that have been released, and the different news articles on cnn, abc, and fox...

 

[danielle]

Nova, I do think our system needs reform and have stated so many times, but wanting reform and wanting the government to take over are two different things I wish I could say I have a brilliant reform idea, but honestly I don't,lol

The main problem is the actual cost of procedures, treatments, and medications make our insurance payments expensive and equally as expensive for Doctors to provide in the first place. Insurance reimburses a bare minimum amount to providers meaning they barely cover the cost of providing the services and adding mal prctice insurance into it makes giving care expensive here. However, insurance companies underright these policies and can reallt loose when people are seriously ill.

Our country needs to start with regulating mal practice suits and see where that taks us. Sorry to be short off to the park with my beasts

 

[ForkedTung]

Our country needs to start with regulating mal practice suits and see where that taks us. Sorry to be short off to the park with my beasts

Now there's a great idea, tort reform, let's not make doctors afraid to practice and restrict juries the ability to give away enormous sums that really don't fit the 'crime', not to mention frivolous lawsuits.

I think there has been plenty of this on both sides of the equation. I agree that the conservatives have jumped to some extremes with the implications of the death panels and coverage of illegals. But, I also choose to look at what they're saying and realize that the vagueness of the bill does allow for those things to happen if funds become tight, and they will. I think the problem comes when, like you said, people take them as complete truth and not the if/then statements that they should be seen as.

Duly noted.