I never made the statement, or even the implication, that YBH was "unhealthy" or suffering from ANY deficiencies. I ONLY stated that it is abnormal for a human being to have absolutely no weight gain between 16 and 32. That is a true statement. There are many reasons why someone might not gain weight during that time frame. *Most* of those reasons involve some sort of disease, deficiency, or malnutrition. Certainly not all of them...but most of them.
I never called into question YBH's health. I stated that in my opinion, a growth rate of ZERO between mid-adolescence and adulthood does not seem like a healthy growth rate. I've never met YBH, never spoken to her in person, and have no idea what her physicality is like. That doesn't mean that zero weight gain between 16 and 32 is "normal".
Certainly you aren't arguing that her experience is the normal experience, and should be how everyone grows. Certainly you don't mean to make that implication. YBH seems to be some sort of enigma in that regard...but absolutely NOT "the norm"...
No...you touted "the benefits". Of course...the actual benefits were never stated...just that it was "beneficial". To whom and how...I've yet to figure out. And absolutely the implications have been made and even stated that vegetarian/veganism is "more healthy" than a meat-inclusive diet. Perhaps you, personally, didn't make those statements. But they were made...in this topic...
It was also argued that a HEALTHY vegan diet could be balanced and wholly nutritional without supplements. I've never known anyone to accomplish this, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
The only claims that I have made regarding a vegan diet is that every vegan and vegetarian I have known throughout my life has been unhealthy. The only claims I made regarding YBH growth rate is that it isn't normal. Both of those statements are 100% accurate. And neither of them is an insult to anyone.
Go figure...:shrugs::sidestep:
Lets cover this point by point
Point one you never said or implied that YBH lack of weight gain is unhealthy.
Your post 116 "How is it "healthy" to maintain the same body weight from early teens to early 30s? Your bone density *should* be increasing. Your musculature *should* be developing. Your body mass *should* be maturing. Bones and muscles weigh a lot. They develop in the mid to late teenage years and into your 20s. You, as a human being, aer supposed to gain weight during this maturation process..."
In the very first sentence you question whether it is healthy for her to have maintained a stable weight all these years, and followed up by telling her what her body should be doing, you know if it where actually healthy and 'normal' as you say. While it certainly seems that you were talking directly to her, I am aware that messageboards can result in things being lost in translation, so despite post 116 I am willing to concede this point to you b/c things on forums can get lost in translation.
Point 2 According to you it is abnormal for a person to not gain any weight from 16 onwards.
Well if you want to define normal as what everyone else does then yes you are right it is not 'normal', however normal in those terms would have her obese or at least overweight. Per Wikipedia (which is not my preferred source but I do not have time to dig through my boxes of textbooks) " Should current trends continue, 75% of adults in the United States are projected to be overweight and 41% obese by 2015." Now just because she does not fit this 'normal' mold does not mean that her growth is abnormal or unhealthy. In fact the growth chart I posted in my last post very clearly showed normal growth up unitl age 20 and it showed very clearly that all but very minor height and weight gains cease at around 16 or so. After age 20 they go by BMI to decide what is normal and what is healthy and I already posted the BMI chart as well showing hers as being normal and healthy. So while YBH growth/weight gain may not be like the 'normal' Americans this is due to the rise in obesity not in their being something abnormal about her growth. So yes I am in fact claiming that YBH has had a normal and healthy growth rate. But no I am not claiming that she is growing the way a 'normal' American might, but that is probably a good thing the way things are going.
Point 3 I touted that there where benefits and never listed them.
I did say there where some benefits according to the nutrition book and I listed them in post 112. I did not say it was necessarily more beneficial in all ways or even more beneficial overall than a diet that contains meat, I just stated that there are benefits.
My post 112 is where I discussed both *pros*, potential *cons*, and how the book recommends overcoming said cons - here are the pertinent parts
"pro's
"In general vegetarians maintain a healthier body weight than non vegetarians." p209
"Vegetarians tend to have lower blood pressure and lower rates of hypertensions than non begetarians." p209
"The incidence of heart disease and related deaths is much lower for vegetarians than for non vegetarians." p209
"Vegetarians have a significantly lower rate of cancer than the general population." p209
"Even when their intake of energy, protien, carbohydrates, total fat, saturated fat, unsaturated fat, alcohol, and fiber are the same, people eating meals based on tofu have lower blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels than those eating meat." p209
And last but not least "well planned vegetarian diets offer sound nutrition and health benefits" p209
cons
Due to the way the book is set up the cons are not as easily quoted in snippets like I did above. So many apologies but you will all have to make do with me summing them up
The book is most concerned with adequate Iron, calcium, vitamin D, B12 and Zinc, although the books straight up says that these things can all be acquired in sufficient quantities by eating legumes, nuts, seeds, peanut butter, tempeh, tofu, soy milk, and dark green vegetable. p209
Special consideration is given in the book to sensitive times in development.
pregnancy is the first mentioned and the book in that case the worry is about iron energy (kcals). Most pregnant women are given vitamins to take because even meat eating women typically do not have enough iron during pregnancy, and the book feels that is adequate for vegetarian moms to be as well. plus many things provide iron other than meat. p211
Infancy is the next sensitive time, and the book clearly states that a well nourished vegetarian mother provides plenty of nutrition to her nursing baby, and that Soy baby formula also provides appropriate nutrition to babies for mom's who choose that route. p211-212
Childhood/Adolescence is the third sensitive time, the book says that a well planned vegetarian diet can easily provide adequate nutrition intakes for growing children, still I put this in con because obviously when you have a growing child Well Planned cannot be stressed enough. They also say that vegetarian children's growth is similar to that of their non vegetarian peers. p.212
They do say that babies who are switching to solid foods in a vegan family, may grow more slowly due to getting full to soon(because these types of foods tend to be more filling), although even there they list ways to prevent that and the types of more energy dense foods avocado as well as continuing them on infant cereals and soy formula to name just few of the ways to overcome this potential con and to help increase the number of calories they are consuming while they grow.p212
It says that vegan children are sometimes shorter/lighter than their peers due to again getting full before enough calories are consumed, and that vegans can have lower bone density, however they also say that with proper diet planning including fortified cereals, etc the nutritional needs of a child can be meet.p212
The wrap up sentences of the section say "Quite simply, the negative health aspects of any diet (meat/vegetarian/vegan are the ones being addressed), reflect poor diet planning. Careful attention to energy intake and specific problem nutrients can ensure adequacy." p212-213"
Please note again none of these are my opinions they are just the findings of the studies as they have been reported in the nutrition textbook. I listed both the pros and cons because I am truly interested in talking about the facts/figures/meris and nutritional information of this subject.
Point 4 You say that he only claims you have made are that you do not know anyone who has been able to be healthy and vegan or vegetarian. This I definitely beg to differ on.
You said that if everyone where to become vegetarian there would be a DRASTIC (capitalized by you) reduction in global population.
I cite your post 89 last paragraph
"One good thing that would come of it...our global population density would decrease dramatically because quite frankly, we, as omnivorous creatures, simply cannot and will not thrive on a vegetarian diet without supplemental nutritional medication. So if the entire world became vegetarian and/or vegan overnight, we would see a DRASTIC reduction in global population due to malnutrition, immuno-compromise diseases, traumatic injury due to calcium and protein deficiencies, and a HUGE increase in the infant mortality rate. So THAT would be beneficial to the environment, at least..."
All I ever said was that no according to the nutritional information which I have now endlessly provided that is not true. According to the actual nutritional information being a vegetarian or vegan can be a healthy/balanced/complete option without adverse health consequences to most people and that there are some benefits to it. I did not say it was a superior option just that it would not cause a "DRASTIC" decrease in our population.
Since that point I have also said that yes YBH's growth is considered normal and healthy according to the growth charts and BMI. I have stated that while it may not be sufficiently 'normal' in an American way it is normal in a health way.
So just to sum up my points
No becoming vegetarian would not kill off a huge part of our population.
Yes YBH's growth is normal and healthy.
Yes there are some benefits to being vegetarian and a vegetarian diet can be complete and healthy.
No that does not mean that being a vegetarian is a superior choice just a different but still perfectly healthy choice when implemented properly.
