hybrids vs. nonhybrids

ForkedTung said:

When I was the foreman of a woodshop, we had farmers etc... that would come in and haul away all of our wood shavings and chips. One thing they steered very clear of was any walnut we had. Apparently when the horse would urinate on the walnut it would react with a chemical in the chips that would then be transferred to the horses bloodstream, via the hooves, and sicken or kill it....Just an FYI! I don't plan on experimenting with any of my snakes substrates.

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Hmm now that's interesting. something I can key in on in a google search which might sway me. Thanks. I'll check that out.

Hold on, Midnight. Nobody said your animals were poorly cared for...they said it could be better.

Calci-Sand is horrible. IMO, the worst type of particulate substrate. Pick some of it up and look really closely at it. See all thoser tiny, jagged edges? See how it kind of looks like little puzzle pieces? That's how they act in the digestive system of a snake, too. They clump together, interlocking and causing impactions. You don't need a link to prove this, look at it, and get some wet in the palm of your hand. That's called "clumping". GREAT for cat litter...not so good for digestive tracts.

Now look at your ground English Walnut shells. See those sharp, pointed edges? They cause cuts and scrapes which can lead to infections. It's also quite uncomfortable. Don't believe me? Try sleeping with a few grains in your bed. Again...you don't need a link to prove it, just grab a handful, look at it closely, and than squeeze it tightly in your hand. OOOPS! Careful, did you cut yourself? Stuff is sharp, ain't it?

And just as a matter of fact...ONE snake for 15 years does not make a good base from which to make projections about your husbandry. 50 snakes for 15 years? You're getting there. 100 snakes for 25 years? That's better. How about the combined thousands of snakes over the combined hundreds of years that we have as a unit in this community. Gives you a little broader study group to work with, don't it?

By the way, KJUN and Chris (tyflier) are 2 of those people that have a zillion times more knowledge and experiance than a noob like me!

tyflier said:

That's called "clumping". GREAT for cat litter...not so good for digestive tracts.

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Actually, no. I agree that Calci-sandcan be more abrasive that rounded "playground sand," and that it is SO dusty that it can lead to respiratory distress in some individual snakes. I agree that over-ingestion can lead to soft tissue mineralization and eventual death. I agree that impaction is possible, but the chance is MUCH, MUCH less than with silica-based sand. Your water analagy is false because a snake's digestive tract is highly acidic. Calci-Sand much be ingested in large quantities to be able to pass through the stomach undigested to lead to possible impaction of the lower GI tract. Yes, it is a concern, but it is not the biggest concern as you seem to believe it is. Drop some in a glass of water, agitate it, and see what happens before you compare pure water to the actions of a digestive tract.

Still, I agree with you completely - Calci-Sand is NOT he best choice for a snake's substrate.

tyflier said:

Wait...you've owned cornsnakes in the past, and you had no idea that this snake wasn't a corn? This animal has albino Cal. king written all over it. It LOOKS more like a king than a corn.

Sorry, but that is your fault. I don't assume shoppers are uninformed, I assume they have researched what they are looking at. I can't answer questions that they don't ask, and it isn't my job to be a mind reader.

I sell snakes locally and over the internet. I also work in a pet shop with exotic parrots and reptiles. I can't start telling people about the various snakes in the shop until I know what they know, and what they don't know. At the very least, they need to show an interest and ask about a specific snake.

The same is true at shows. With thousands of people asking questions all day for 3 or 4 days straight...how could you expect a breeder to offer you information you haven't asked for...:shrugs:

Afterall...we breed snakes, not read minds. We are animal lovers not future seers...:bang:

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On the simplest side x mixed with x could have been on the label. Or hey how bout Hybrid that's a term that brings up questions.

This could quickly come about to a nice debate on how lazy or bad it is to lable something with one name or another. I mean why not Jungle King? Naww doesn't sound as good. You don't have to tell people anything but IMHO you're just as much the problem as me not knowing at a pet show going hmm let's see Aztec Corn, Lavender Corn, Jungle Corn. Should be a corn snake. But maybe aztec and lavendars aren't let me check. Sorry Jungle Corn is grossly mislabled and perpetuates obsfuscation over a breed.
But we can agree to disagree.

Midnght said:

Sorry Jungle Corn is grossly mislabled and perpetuates obsfuscation over a breed.

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I've said that for years, but it doesn't change the fact that your snake didn't look like a cornsnake or that the ENTIRE industry (as sick as it makes me feel!) uses cornsnakes as the dumping ground: Jungle corns not kings, Turbo corns not pines or gophers, Creamiscle corns not rats, etc. Search the old threads before re-hashing the same old arguments again.

One poster her uses the better term "EmoryCorn" for rootbeers, so the confusion is reduced. So is marketability, though....lol. Along those lines, I know one guy that sells his as Jungle Korns. Notice the appropriate misspelling. That would reduce the confusion, and I respect him for it. That SHOULD have reduced your confusion, too. In other words, I agree with you on principle. Together, we all make about 8 people out of the entire industry that see the problems.......lol.

tyflier said:

Hold on, Midnight. Nobody said your animals were poorly cared for...they said it could be better.

Calci-Sand is horrible. IMO, the worst type of particulate substrate. Pick some of it up and look really closely at it. See all thoser tiny, jagged edges? See how it kind of looks like little puzzle pieces? That's how they act in the digestive system of a snake, too. They clump together, interlocking and causing impactions. You don't need a link to prove this, look at it, and get some wet in the palm of your hand. That's called "clumping". GREAT for cat litter...not so good for digestive tracts.

Now look at your ground English Walnut shells. See those sharp, pointed edges? They cause cuts and scrapes which can lead to infections. It's also quite uncomfortable. Don't believe me? Try sleeping with a few grains in your bed. Again...you don't need a link to prove it, just grab a handful, look at it closely, and than squeeze it tightly in your hand. OOOPS! Careful, did you cut yourself? Stuff is sharp, ain't it?

And just as a matter of fact...ONE snake for 15 years does not make a good base from which to make projections about your husbandry. 50 snakes for 15 years? You're getting there. 100 snakes for 25 years? That's better. How about the combined thousands of snakes over the combined hundreds of years that we have as a unit in this community. Gives you a little broader study group to work with, don't it?

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True those amounts would be better. But lets see there's no data like that is there?

Had no cuts had no infections maybe it's better thna it used to be? Things do change.

At the very least your all concerns have me looking deeper into the subject.
what I find is varied. Most issues are in rgards to Bearded Dragons. Which sound slike if assumed bad for one reptile it must be bad for all. Definately a way to think on the safe side but still doesn't prove there's issues towards snakes.

What I find mor einteresting and a bigger concern is the potential for mold. Which in context gives me more reason to change than anything else.
Yet at the same time. This can happen with aspen to. The key factor to mold being how often you clena up. I've never had mold so I'm doing that right. I could certainly chang eto aspen but the same mold chance is there. It wouldn't make a differance either way which I used in the regaqrds of mold cause I keep a clean cage.

But I'm still looking a little more hard evidence. I see other people and posts who've had no issues, I see those with issues are talking about Bearded Dragons. But hey I'm still investigating. If you've got more direct leads by all means pass them on.

But Sure my one snake experience doesn't amount to much, but then there's no info about anyone havings used more and the issues they had to prove it's 100% bad either because they simply go with the norm and don't venture outside it.

Just for the record. I did not choose this substrate years ago just to be different or go against the grain. It was reported as safe, looked nice, and was a good price.

But I'm delving deeper. If you have directions to look about snakes aqnd this by all means point em out.

KJUN said:

Actually, no. I agree that Calci-sandcan be more abrasive that rounded "playground sand," and that it is SO dusty that it can lead to respiratory distress in some individual snakes. I agree that over-ingestion can lead to soft tissue mineralization and eventual death. I agree that impaction is possible, but the chance is MUCH, MUCH less than with silica-based sand. Your water analagy is false because a snake's digestive tract is highly acidic. Calci-Sand much be ingested in large quantities to be able to pass through the stomach undigested to lead to possible impaction of the lower GI tract. Yes, it is a concern, but it is not the biggest concern as you seem to believe it is. Drop some in a glass of water, agitate it, and see what happens before you compare pure water to the actions of a digestive tract.

Still, I agree with you completely - Calci-Sand is NOT he best choice for a snake's substrate.

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So in essences. Don't use better safe than sorry.
But 100% use definate don't use.
A diluted mixture you wouldn't use but isn't all that bad as 100%?

KJUN said:

I've said that for years, but it doesn't change the fact that your snake didn't look like a cornsnake or that the ENTIRE industry (as sick as it makes me feel!) uses cornsnakes as the dumping ground: Jungle corns not kings, Turbo corns not pines or gophers, Creamiscle corns not rats, etc. Search the old threads before re-hashing the same old arguments again.

One poster her uses the better term "EmoryCorn" for rootbeers, so the confusion is reduced. So is marketability, though....lol. Along those lines, I know one guy that sells his as Jungle Korns. Notice the appropriate misspelling. That would reduce the confusion, and I respect him for it. That SHOULD have reduced your confusion, too. In other words, I agree with you on principle. Together, we all make about 8 people out of the entire industry that see the problems.......lol.

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Yeah what's done is done i'm not happy about it. You can kick me all you want for not noticing the variation in the head. It was a baby and characterstics change as they get bigger. The pratical upshot. I'll never attempt to house together ever again. Two losses is two too many for me because they are loved pets for me not breeding stock I my part with some day and have to take the risks.

So there's a positive for what it's worth.

There seem to be some bad-tempered and testy responses on this thread, which started as a simple request for visual markers to identify hybrid corns.
For what it's worth, this question has been asked a few times, and the general consensus is that there are corn hybrids that are virtually impossible to tell from pure corns, and that there is virtually no guarantee that any given corn has 100% corn genetics. Here's a previous thread
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50112&highlight=hybrid+marker

Yeah, I know, ground walnut shell is sharp and abrasive on skin. And it is prone to molding. And maybe some farmers wouldn't use it near their horses due to it's toxic properties, but snakes are not horses! Those are no reasons to stop using ground walnut shell as a substrate! Pet shops know best, right? I mean, why switch to something else when there have been no specific studies pertaining to snakes.

And aspen or newspaper are SO expensive and hard to obtain....so why bother?

:angry01:

Midnight...use whatever substrate you wanna use. It matters very little to me. Personally...I wouldn't want to crawl on my belly on ground walnut shells regardless of toxicity levels. It simply doesn't look comfortable to me. But...I don't use aspen, either. I use shredded coconut fiber because it is soft, it is ultr-absorbant, and it contains natural tannins to reduce bacterial growth...no molds. So use whatever you like...but remember...

There was a time when Pine was considered the "perfect" substrate. It wasn't until people stopped using it, and the lifespan of the animals increased, that they decided to check out what was going on. You know what they found out? Not only does the high dust levels lead to more frequent URI's, but it also contains turpines. You what those are? They are the chemicals used to manufacture turpentine. Yea...deadly. But people used it for YEARS "without any problems".

There are two boats afloat on this ocean.

In one boat you have the "don't fix it if it ain't broken" club. These people stand by what has worked for them in the past becasue they "never had any issues". These people usually wait until one of their own animals succumbs to whatever the risk was before making any changes.

In the other boat you have the "benefits do not outweigh the risks" club. These people have heard a few bad reports on particular things, and rather than taking a chance with their own animals, they change to use something that has been shown to pose fewer risks. These people don't wait for something bad to happen before they make changes.

And yes...there is data. Maybe not scientifically collected data, but you have right here at your fingertips, probably close to a thousand years of personal experiences with probably close to a million snakes in captivity, and just about every variable you can imagine. Certainly, some have successes where others have failures. But all of the "research" and "data collection" can be found in these pages through personal experiences, "What do I do?" threads, and "What went wrong?" threads.

As far as the whole Jungle Corn thing goes...it's a trade name. It is what it is. People use it and like it, and I doubt it will change.

I am of the opinion that a person that looks at a Jungle Corn and does not know that it is not a pure corn...probably doesn't care. I've never seen one that looks like a pure corn. Same for Pueblacorns, Sinacorns, Super Corns, and Turbo Corns. Creamsicles and Rootbeers look too close for my blood, but...it isn't my call to make.

Ultimately...it's labled for saleability, not to satisfy every potential question. *Most* people with even SOME experience in either kings or corns would recognize 99% of Jungle Corns for what they are...inter-genus hybrids. They may not know exactly what the combination is, but they would recignize it as "something different", and most likely be inclined to ask before paying for it.

I still place the blame on you for that one...sorry, but that's my opinion.

Midnght said:

You don't have to like what I use for substrate heck, you'll be even more upset to know it's a blend. 15 lbs calci sand mixed into 50 lbs ground english walnut shell.

The lives of my snakes are quite good and healthy you cna get as upset as you wish but still as things are perhaps a step back shoudl be taken to see what i'm doing right and see if that's why so called bad substrate or disliked is working?

15 years is a long life never had a regurge, never had shed issues, never had disease, never had them not want to eat, the list goes on.

Can you honestly say the same?

If what I use doesn't work for you well that's fine. But it works for me and to say the lives of my snakes are not good is rather insulting don't you think?

I'm sure you're not trying to be and just trying to be helpful. But while being helpful you're making it very much yours and their way is best and that's clearly not the case or iId be doing it that way. }:>)

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To this I must reply with a quote made by Benjamin Franklin- "Experience is a dear teacher, but fools will learn at no other"

The fact that your snake did not die yet doesn't mean that you have the right angle on things or can see the full picture. No living person can single handedly dictate absolute truths. You're a fracture of the general populace of snake keepers- and quite a few of their experiences negate yours.
I have a friend who has kept dogs for the better part of 16 years now. No dog ever died under his care- but he never vaccinated his dogs? Does this mean vaccinations are a fraud? or unnecessary? No, it simply means he was lucky. That's it.

Currently you insist on providing less than optimal conditions to your snake because you're stubborn. Ego has no part here, the goal of everyone here is to keep their snakes to the best of their capabilities. The benefit from being a part of a group is that you can learn from other people's mistakes and from more experienced keepers.

The fact that you insist on a certain path even though you know for a fact that most keepers would disagree with simply means you value your ego more than your snakes. And that's a shame.

Such substrate tends to remain moist(moist substrate is a good recipe for scale rot), can house bacteria and parasites with greater ease and is probably more expansive than the alternative.

I am not trying to flame you here- if you insist on being a "non-conformist" that's fine. Just do it at your expanse rather than your animals

tyflier said:

Midnight...
Ultimately...it's labled for saleability, not to satisfy every potential question. *Most* people with even SOME experience in either kings or corns would recognize 99% of Jungle Corns for what they are...inter-genus hybrids. They may not know exactly what the combination is, but they would recignize it as "something different", and most likely be inclined to ask before paying for it.
I still place the blame on you for that one...sorry, but that's my opinion.

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That is what i was thinking. Why is it always the seller to blame? Seeing all the color morphs is the fun part of owning corn so when i see something new on a breeder's table i ask about it. I remember the first time I seen a lava corn. I never heard of it before that time so I asked about it. If the breeder told you it was a pure corn and then you found out that it was not. Then yes the breeder is a fault. I say that Midnght you are a lest 50% at fault for not doing your home work or at lest asking more about it.

reptile_jones said:

I say that Midnght you are a lest 50% at fault for not doing your home work or at lest asking more about it.

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If s/he KNEW hybrid corns existed, then I agree s/he should have asked. However, if the buyer is an OBVIOUS newbie (and you can usually ID them a mile a way if you are an experienced seller), then I DO believe the buyer has the responsibility to notify the beginner when they are buying a hybrid. I believe being a hybridizer comes with the responsibility to represent them honestly and to do everything in their power to make sure their customers do so, too.

KJ

I might be wrong, but I believe walnut is one of those hard woods that can cause some serious respitory problems in humans, for different reasons than pine..


Here I did a quick search , the focus is on the wood working industry as a whole...

http://employment.alberta.ca/documents/WHS/WHS-PUB_ch045.pdf

Regards.. Tim of T and J

KJUN said:

If s/he KNEW hybrid corns existed, then I agree s/he should have asked. However, if the buyer is an OBVIOUS newbie (and you can usually ID them a mile a way if you are an experienced seller), then I DO believe the buyer has the responsibility to notify the beginner when they are buying a hybrid. I believe being a hybridizer comes with the responsibility to represent them honestly and to do everything in their power to make sure their customers do so, too.

KJ

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I see your point and would have to agree. This next year will be my first time breeding hybird's and all babies will be labeled as such. (corn X emoryi)

KJUN said:

If s/he KNEW hybrid corns existed, then I agree s/he should have asked. However, if the buyer is an OBVIOUS newbie (and you can usually ID them a mile a way if you are an experienced seller), then I DO believe the buyer has the responsibility to notify the beginner when they are buying a hybrid. I believe being a hybridizer comes with the responsibility to represent them honestly and to do everything in their power to make sure their customers do so, too.

KJ

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I agree, How are you supposed to know what questions to ask when you don't know what questions to ask? Regardless of how anyone feels about it, it's unfortunate but I don't think that most americans research their purchases, it's usually a buy first ask questions later consumer culture.
Like KJUN pointed out earlier a jungle corn is NOT a cornsnake, and should NEVER be labelled as one.

How hard is this:

"OOOH that's pretty what is that?"
" Well that's what some people call a jungle corn, but it's actually a hybrid?"
painless.

Well being in the altered state im in right now I think if your a purist thats just super and if you like hybrids rock on! Myself i got LOTS of things im crossing this season, why you ask because its there to be done, i want to see wth will pop out and fear not i SHALL label them as hybrids. luckily i have most sold already, thats IF the breed at all! rest assured if all goes well i will be posting some pic!

ForkedTung said:

...How hard is this:

"OOOH that's pretty what is that?"
" Well that's what some people call a jungle corn, but it's actually a hybrid?"
painless.

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That wouldn't be hard at all. See a snake, you have no idea what it is...you ask. Midnight simply didn't ask...