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Steve Irwin Dies at age 44, A sad day in the herping world..

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Vinman said:
Some people want to know what genes are in a new color morph because they are too cheep to buy it. They want to know what genes are in the new morph so they can breed it them selfs.
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And some people are greedy and want everything for themselves. They want the money and the fame. Where have I heard that before???

Vinman said:
He got greedy starting do stuff that was not in his realm and died end of story . He did these shows for the money and fame ( yes he spread the word of conversation) but the bottom line is rattings and money . If he did not do it for the money he would have donated most of the profit to wildlife conversation groups. I'm sure gave some money to conversation But dont sit there and say he did it all for the animals . He made the movie and I'm sure most of the profit went to his pocket. The zoo that he owns is a privet zoo. Not like most zoos in this country . So bottom line he got greedy and paid the price. He should have stuck to doing reptiles that was his main profession.
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Sounds like someone else I know could be headed down the wrong track.
 
Vinman said:
yes as long as they are reproducable why I should care . soon all my snakes will be corn soup .
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What exactly gives you the right to criticise someone who brought love and respect to the reptile world, when you yourself have such a blatant disrespect for living things?
 
zwyatt said:
And some people are greedy and want everything for themselves. They want the money and the fame. Where have I heard that before???



Sounds like someone else I know could be headed down the wrong track.
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sorry bro you dont see pizza store, Coke, KFC, ect. giving you their ingredints. Sure you do all work in seeing if you are gona make something worth wild and tell someone all the info so they can make them self. Sory it is a bunisess. Let people buy it and let them do all the work in trying to find out how you came up with the new morph
 
Vinman said:
Some people want to know what genes are in a new color morph because they are too cheep to buy it. They want to know what genes are in the new morph so they can breed it them selfs. I had a long talk with Rich Z about this. I agree with him about keeping what makes a new color morph to yourself. Soon when I produce stuff I will not be discloesing what went into making the new morph.
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Vinny, I've met you in person, and I know that you're not a monster. Maybe you haven't presented yourself in the best light in this thread. From a marketing standpoint, I'd refrain from posting further comments about Irwin. Just a bit of friendly advice. This thread started as a nice tribute, but has turned into a disrespectful fiasco.

I don't know if Rich Z. has really committed to keeping the ingredients of new morphs secret. The thousands of dollars I've spent on corns attest to the fact that I'm not cheap. But if you think that you and Rich are going to be selling "super-duper-peachy-surprise" mystery snakes of unknown genetics for top dollar, I think you're crazy. It's the thrill of the combos that drives most breeders (like me) to make high-end purchases. I would never buy a high-price-tag corn that I didn't know how to reproduce, or that I couldn't figure out where to fit into my breeding schemes. I'll bet that 99%+ of the breeders out there feel the same way. Do you really think that people are going to buy a beautiful mystery snake as a showcase animal for $1000? If you don't know what it is, then it's just a corn snake. :shrugs:
 
Vinman said:
sorry bro you dont see pizza store, Coke, KFC, ect. giving you their ingredints. Sure you do all work in seeing if you are gona make something worth wild and tell someone all the info so they can make them self. Sory it is a bunisess. Let people buy it and let them do all the work in trying to find out how you came up with the new morph
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I suppose that's when someone crosses from hobbyist to business.

Personally I'm a hobbyist and will be breeding because I enjoy the animals and enjoy the genetics of it all, if I end up with something new, then I would share it, simply because for me its a hobby and I'd want to share it with everyone.

Business is Business I suppose and in a sense it does sound fair not to share your "ingredients" but there is no seance in being arrogant about it.

As for what Dean said above I agree 100%. I would purchase a pair of "Peach" snakes with no background info for MAYBE $30. But Hundreds? Never.
 
you got to think about this If someone shows you a bunch of hatchlngs that are all the same and they show you the parents that is the same morph. what is the diffrance what is the diffrance how you made it . The fact it is a new morph and you can reproduce it 100% . the product is in hand and you can sell the babies of this new morph and not have to worry about someone else and not being able to reproduceing them.
 
Vinman said:
you got to think about this If someone shows you a bunch of hatchlngs that are all the same and they show you the parents that is the same morph. what is the diffrance what is the diffrance how you made it . The fact it is a new morph and you can reproduce it 100% . the product is in hand and you can sell the babies of this new morph and not have to worry about someone else and not being able to reproduceing them.
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I do see your point.

I guess I just like to know the background and the whats what of it all. :shrugs:
 
Vinman said:
you got to think about this If someone shows you a bunch of hatchlngs that are all the same and they show you the parents that is the same morph. what is the diffrance what is the diffrance how you made it . The fact it is a new morph and you can reproduce it 100% . the product is in hand and you can sell the babies of this new morph and not have to worry about someone else and not being able to reproduceing them.
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The difference is that if I don't know the genetics, then I don't know what to do with the snake beyond making more of the same morph. If I pick up a pair of "morph X" snakes, what other females in my collection are going to be compatible with the male? This is unacceptable to me. And if you can't tell me what the snake's genetics are, then I'm not going to pay much for it no matter what it looks like.

There are people who put a great deal of work into breeding lines of selectively bred morphs. Take Miamis, for instance. Carol H. has worked hard to produce exceptional Miamis. What is the highest price that her best examples can command? For all I know, those "peach hypos" are selectively bred hypo-lavs. If you don't know what they are, or if you are unwilling to divulge their genetic makeup, then I certainly wouldn't spend any MORE on one than I would on a hypo-lav. In fact, I probably wouldn't even spend AS MUCH on one as I would on a hypo-lav.

I would seriously reconsider this approach if I were you, unless you just want to sell $20 mystery snakes to those who don't care about genetics. Doesn't seem like a sound business model. :shrugs:
 
Roy look at amel.corns from years ago that were more money than a reg. amel corn EXP. sunglows, dayglows, canday canes, reverse okeetees. They are all just amels selectively bred for color and went for more money than normal amel corns. If anything I think they should go for more money than just mixing diffrent genes together and come up with a combo morph because there is a lot more work and years to selectively breed a snake for color . look at crimon's they are just hypos that are breed to miami corns look how long it took to get them to reproduce that color and still today you dont get a 100% out of a clutch the same gos for candy canes it is hard to get a mint speciman. It dont make a diffance if it is selectively bred or you made it from crossing muti genes the fact is if you can reproduce it or not.
 
Roy Munson said:
From a marketing standpoint, I'd refrain from posting further comments about Irwin.
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I think that cat was out of the bag about 18 pages ago :eek1:

Vinman, you must have missed my point entirely.

Vinman said:
Some people want to know what genes are in a new color morph because they are too cheep to buy it. They want to know what genes are in the new morph so they can breed it them selfs.
Click to expand...


And some people are greedy and all they want is the money and the fame. Where have I heard that before???

Vinman said:
He got greedy starting do stuff that was not in his realm and died end of story . He did these shows for the money and fame ( yes he spread the word of conversation) but the bottom line is...money . If he did not do it for the money he would have donated most of the profit to wildlife conversation groups. I'm sure gave some money to conversation But dont sit there and say he did it all for the animals . He made the movie and I'm sure most of the profit went to his pocket. The zoo that he owns is a privet zoo. Not like most zoos in this country . So bottom line he got greedy and paid the price. He should have stuck to doing reptiles that was his main profession.
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Vinman said:
If anything I think they should go for more money than just mixing diffrent genes together and come up with a combo morph because there is a lot more work and years to selectively breed a snake for color .
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I see your point, BUT it doesn't matter what you or I think. People aren't going to pay big bucks for a single homozygous amel, regardless of the effort that it took to produce it. By the same token, people aren't going to pay big bucks for a mystery-genetics snake just because it looks cool. They're going to want to know what they're paying for.
 
Roy Munson said:
I see your point, BUT it doesn't matter what you or I think. People aren't going to pay big bucks for a single homozygous amel, regardless of the effort that it took to produce it. By the same token, people aren't going to pay big bucks for a mystery-genetics snake just because it looks cool. They're going to want to know what they're paying for.
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Amen to that! :cheers:
 
Vinman said:
You have to try it out to see if it works so I use my own animals . trying it out on 2 or 3 animals wont give you the results that you want. I used it for about 2 bto 2 1/2 years. Some of the snakes werent doing as well as I liked some femals werent producing good clutches young snales werent growing at the rate they should I gave it a shot and by it self was not a good diet when used with mice it works fine

yes as long as they are reproducable why I should care . soon all my snakes will be corn soup . and when I get new morphs. I will bred them to eachother to see I can reproduce it. Now if you like to know the genetic make of a morph thats your bag , cool, If thats what you are into. Some people want to know what genes are in a new color morph because they are too cheep to buy it. They want to know what genes are in the new morph so they can breed it them selfs. I had a long talk with Rich Z about this. I agree with him about keeping what makes a new color morph to yourself. Soon when I produce stuff I will not be discloesing what went into making the new morph. You see that in the flowers and the tropical fish industry. They dont tell eachother how they came up with a new color morph till years down the road after someone else figure it out and they allready sold them for a few years.
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Stating that you tried the diet on a whole bunch of animals for a long time will onl ymake your case worse Vinman..... I'm amazed about your unability to understand what people are telling you.... Of course you did not use someone elses animals, but you should not have tried it at all! Suppose some teacher in a first grade class wants to test if children can live a healthy life when eating carrots only so she changes every kids lunch to a bunch of carrots..... the children expect her to do nothing wrong so they obey and don't tell their parnets cause it is a secret.... wouldn't you be mad as a parent for this? You cannot use animals for your own possible health threatening experiments cause they depend on you and cannot refuse!

Oh my God, the Vinman found a way to have another secret we are not allowed to know.... for your information; most serious breeder can at least guess what is in a morph and test breed them 'mystery' morphs to find out their genes..... You are sure gonna meet your own lacks of doing proper business when people do not want to buy 'mystery' snakes for high prices..... and surely will never adopt the names you want them to give...
 
Blutengel said:
Stating that you tried the diet on a whole bunch of animals for a long time will onl ymake your case worse Vinman..... I'm amazed about your unability to understand what people are telling you.... Of course you did not use someone elses animals, but you should not have tried it at all! Suppose some teacher in a first grade class wants to test if children can live a healthy life when eating carrots only so she changes every kids lunch to a bunch of carrots..... the children expect her to do nothing wrong so they obey and don't tell their parnets cause it is a secret.... wouldn't you be mad as a parent for this? You cannot use animals for your own possible health threatening experiments cause they depend on you and cannot refuse!

Oh my God, the Vinman found a way to have another secret we are not allowed to know.... for your information; most serious breeder can at least guess what is in a morph and test breed them 'mystery' morphs to find out their genes..... You are sure gonna meet your own lacks of doing proper business when people do not want to buy 'mystery' snakes for high prices..... and surely will never adopt the names you want them to give...
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Sorry you are so wrong you only come up with new was of doing by trying them out. If nobdy trys anything new then there is no progress this whole hobby was founded on trial and error. Many thing were tried from bedding , mite remadies, egg incubation, so many husbandtry technique were tried some faild and some worked . All because sometried something new. In my 21 years of breeding I've seen a lot and heard a lot. of things tried out again some worked some did not
 
So you are saying that taking away an animals natural food, which is readily available and substituting something that they don't eat in the wild because their bodies are not designed for it...is supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT in husbandry practices?
 
starsevol said:
So you are saying that taking away an animals natural food, which is readily available and substituting something that they don't eat in the wild because their bodies are not designed for it...is supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT in husbandry practices?
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I can see that you no nothing about a wild cornsnake. In the wild before the europens landed here, there natural food is mice , rats and birds (turkey chicks) that are idigenous to north america. After the europens got here other mice, rats, and birds that were native to eroupe and aisa were introduced to this country, along with chickens. So now that the country has the europen's here corn snakes eat all diffrent types of mice and rats, and birds from this continent and others that were introduced. Corns are known for raiding chicken coops and eat the young chicks. The mice that we use in the hobby ( lab mice ) that we feed our snakes are not from this continent, So in reatity it is not there natural diet. The natural diet of a corn snake in not just mice besides mice ,rats, and birds, Adult corns in the wild have been seen eating frogs, toads , and lizards. My friend who I gave a F1 okeetee corn from wild parents I caught was feeding his turtle gold fish . He walked to the turtle tank with the bag of fish and the corn snake who was housed in the tank underneath went nuts . So my friend put some gold fish in her water bowl and she went right after them ate every one. So if a F1 corn snake went after the fish I bet you in the wild some corns eat fish too. I'm so way above your league dude.
 
Yup youre way above my league.
I bet everyone who reads this will agree.

Snakes need whole food items, including fur, feathers, bones and stomach contents. Your diet provided none of that. You put money above the welfare of your animals. They are only money making tools for you.

I'm thinking you need to hire a new pr director for your "business". I sure would fire the idiot who went off on Irwin. There is no positive way you can spin it. It just might be too late for damage control now, your "company's" reputation sinks lower at every post. I'm fairly certain that whatever product your firm produces in the future, a huge percentage of your potential customer base would now rather jam a pencil into their right eye than buy anything from you.
 
starsevol said:
Yup youre way above my league.
I bet everyone who reads this will agree.

Snakes need whole food items, including fur, feathers, bones and stomach contents. Your diet provided none of that. You put money above the welfare of your animals. They are only money making tools for you.

I'm thinking you need to hire a new pr director for your "business". I sure would fire the idiot who went off on Irwin. There is no positive way you can spin it. It just might be too late for damage control now, your "company's" reputation sinks lower at every post. I'm fairly certain that whatever product your firm produces in the future, a huge percentage of your potential customer base would now rather jam a pencil into their right eye than buy anything from you.
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You are way above my league in being rude :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
 
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