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Tessera Debate

Don, Im a n00bie but for what it's worth I took Tessera to be as much a pure corn as any but nore importantly. I am 100% sure that you & the others WOULD have told the hobbyist world if you had any reason to suspect they're hybrids. So here's this n00bie's vote of confidence in your integrity! Thanks for posting!
 
I get a kick outta these threads. I once posted that Tesseras awesome pattern made me take a second look at my pinstriped normal motley female. Uh, yeah, reconsider that mot and stripe (she was het stripe) were all that were playing there. I got jumped on that she was not tessera. At no point had I said she was. Just that looking at pics of tesseras had made me think.

Now the OP here was trying to stir up trouble and openly admitted to such when they said the other thread had died off so they started a new one. By starting a new one instead of posting in the old you stirred up trouble all over. I wish people would keep their oppinions simple and not argue over them.

I think all corn TYPES are cool! Hybrid whether known or not! Snakes rock man, so anyone who owns one should go turn on Criminal Minds (on now btw) and hold a snake. Its the number one way to kill stress.

Oh and THANK YOU for pointing out that Ultras are hybrids, I did not know that! Such honesty is to be commended not brushed aside, forgotten then questioned. If I ever had an oddity pop out of my odd clutch here and there I would gladly GIVE it to someone to work with for the cost of shipping. I love snakes but do NOT want the hassel of developing something new.

Please those who love tesseras, love them those that don't, let the rest of us alone then we will all be HAPPY :D
 
Abell82 I just don't get your antagonistic tone here? You believe tessera's to be hybrids so to you this is a true statement, but in reality you have no more evidence than those who say they are not. ....
Why get so argumentative about something you can neither prove or disprove? Your opinion is yours and other's share similar opinions, but there is no real need to be nasty about it either:)

Do you REALLY feel that I have been any more "nasty" or "antagonistic" then anyone else has been in the past?
Maybe you should read this ENTIRE thread...
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97828&highlight=tessera&page=4
Now there is some nastiness in there.

I stated my opinion. I defended my position, yes I did so aggressively. But, I don't feel I was overly antagonistic in doing so. If you do, then so be it. You are welcome to your opinion. I feel that your post is antagonistic, by calling me out and saying I was "nasty" for defending my position.

Opinions are.... well, they're opinions.:cheers:
 
. They stand nothing to gain by passing off hybrids as 'pure' corns. When I look at known hybrids, even ones crossed back to corns couple gens, there are those that just have that non-corn look about them. If you look at the Tessaras, other than pattern, they look 100% as any corn.

I keep hearing...other than the pattern. Are you kidding me? Thats a big factor. If Joe Shmoe from around the block came around with this snake before Don and them and told us it was a corn,we would have all laughed at him and called it a hybrid because of that same pattern. I think anyone who finds or create a new morph has something to gain. Even with this one,especially with it being priced so high. Why is it priced so high anyway when it's clutch is gauranteed half tesseras?
 
I keep hearing...other than the pattern. Are you kidding me? Thats a big factor.
not really. No doubt there will be more pattern mutations to pop up. And these will likely be from known 'pure' corns! These genes are in ppl's collections right now just awaiting that random pairing! So many genes not yet shown themselves in corns. I know they are in there! There are aberrant pattern corns everywhere, in those corns SOME are not just variation, but have heritable traits. This is why I ask some of my ?'s in this forum, to get ppl thinking and looking at what we have.

Why $1000+? supply and demand. Most will wait until supply catches up and they come down.
 
I keep hearing...other than the pattern. Are you kidding me? Thats a big factor. If Joe Shmoe from around the block came around with this snake before Don and them and told us it was a corn,we would have all laughed at him and called it a hybrid because of that same pattern. I think anyone who finds or create a new morph has something to gain. Even with this one,especially with it being priced so high. Why is it priced so high anyway when it's clutch is gauranteed half tesseras?

Simple supply and demand. Its a new morph, so right now its going to be priced higher than most because that is where the market is willing to pay for it. Not too long ago Ashy was at the same level of prices. Now they're at a more affordable level. Your second statement is correct too, because they are a codominant morph, their price will probably drop quicker than most recessive morphs because they are more easily reproduced. Simple supply and demand whoty ;)
 
URLs to non-mutant Tessera sibs

Here are the promised URLs. I don't know if they'll render as hyperlinks or URLs you'll have to copy and paste. Sorry if the latter is the case.

You WILLsee hybrid-looking markers on some of these. I'll be perfectly honest about which ones are which (pur corn OR Ulta products). Some will surprise you, since I have interjected some totally unrelated snakes that have no Ultra or Tessera blood in them. After a couple of days of reviews, I'll post a listing of exactly what the parents of each one are.

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test04jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test06jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test09jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test10jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test12jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test14jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test15jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test16jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test18jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test20jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test21jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test22jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test28jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test29jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test30jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test31jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test35jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test40jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test41jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test42jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test43jn10a.jpg

http://www.cornsnake.net/Tessera/test59jn10a.jpg

It appears that these ARE INDEED the nasty and laborious cut'n pasters. Sorry. John said I should have put them in a Photobucket gallery. My bad!
 
For whom is this a problem or big mess?

This comment was implying more of a generic problem/mess. I do not think there is a "whom"....more of an "it". Tessera has been cloaked in some mystery and that allows all the nay-sayers to keep on nay saying.


Jeff, for the past four years, SMR has routinely produced 47 corn morphs that have never been advertised. I don't expect you to understand that I'm too busy to post every new morph I produce, and as long as they keep selling by word-of-mouth, that may not change.

Don, I have no doubt you are EXTREMELY busy. I have a fraction of the collection that you do and I am busy...so I KNOW you are busy. I also know you do things differently than others and do not participate on the forums as much. I wish you could participate more as you have much to share about the cornsnake industry as is evidenced by conversations we've had, emails, posts on the forums and of course, your book. Maybe I've pursued it wrong, but my intent on getting you to chime in was to put an end to the nonsensical accusations as your word/pictures are worth their weight in gold. (No offense to Graham or KJ, but in the corn industry it is hard to be better known than you.)



I realize you and others are saying "Don, I wasn't doubting you, KJ, and Graham", but anyone reading this thread understands the innuendos. I fully expect people to question new morphs (I wrote the book on Cornsnake Hybrid Conspiracy), but that can be done without making accusations.

Innuendos from others...perhaps, from me....no. You must be reading something else... My quest has been to seek information that will complete the story and leave little doubt. See below:

MohrSnakes said:
If there is nothing to hide (and quite possibly there isn't) then why don't the producers of this new morph bring everything they have to the table? Why not close-up pictures of every snake from the all the outcrossed clutches? That may not solve anything, but is sure would pull the cover off the canvas a little.

MohrSnakes said:
there is probably not much that you can do to stop some of these unfounded accusations by members that are really no more than trouble makers. Some of these posters are dead set on what they believe without ever breeding or even seeing one of these in person. How do you defend against that? I'm not sure. What I do know is by putting every card on the table it is hard to not come out on top. Don, KJ, and you are respected members of cornsnakes.com and beyond. The comments the three of you have put forth are more than enough for many of the people in the industry. In fact, they have been plenty for me.

MohrSnakes said:
I saw the tesseras in person, held them, photographed them and was amazed like everyone else. So much so we work out several loans. I missed the normals and wish I had not...but for me it really wouldn't make a difference. I trust you guys and I trust the history as it has been presented.

MohrSnakes said:
What I do wish, however, was that Don would come here and explain his clutch to the best of his ability. He hatched them and he's hatched more snakes than probably anyone on the forums besides Rich and Kathy. A few pics of all the snakes with a few comments on the odd head patterns of the normals in the clutch would go a LONG WAY in silencing the newly unfounded accusations. And yes, I guess you could say I'm selfish. I am invested in this morph with the various loans we have discussed. I hate to see an excellent morph lose credibility because of a small handful of doubters. Leaving doubt linger does not decrease the doubters cause. Coming back with reputation and information can only strengthen the truth.

And...bingo!.....exactly what I had hoped may happen....information that leaves very little doubt and quells the unfounded accusations that were brought about by the head pattern from one of the normals....

For everyone's information, the anery Tessera IS a hybrid. It's an Ultramel. I have bred Tessera males to many non Tessera females, but only when I pair one with an Ultra-type do I get squirrely markings and other hybrid markers (on mutants and non-mutants alike.



It seems to me that the two of you are so dubious about them being pure corns that if I posted pix of 80 non-mutant Tessera siblings, you'd say I purposely didn't show you the odd ones. Those that know me don't have to read what I'm about to say. . . I have never misled, exaggerated, or fabricated any facts that would cover up any hybridization of corns.

Perhaps you are not including me in this group or perhaps you did not have the time to read everything I have written, but I would like to clear it up in any case with one of my previous comments:

MohrSnakes said:
I saw the tesseras in person, held them, photographed them and was amazed like everyone else. So much so we work out several loans. I missed the normals and wish I had not...but for me it really wouldn't make a difference. I trust you guys and I trust the history as it has been presented.


The story for me is that I trust what has been presented before and now. However, there are many others who like to stir the pot. The internet--for better or worse--is a new, ever expanding entity. Rapid sharing of information happens overnight and runs the whole gamut from good to bad. This morph has been surrounded by mystery as the originals came from some place "unknown". With that, anyone can say anything and the doubters have certainly made their voice heard. Graham pulled a chair up to the table and now Don has as well. The information presented was actually what I thought might be the case.

For everyone's information, the anery Tessera IS a hybrid. It's an Ultramel. I have bred Tessera males to many non Tessera females, but only when I pair one with an Ultra-type do I get squirrely markings and other hybrid markers (on mutants and non-mutants alike.

Does this open the door to another debate....who knows. :shrugs: Do we circle back to the debates about ultra/ultramel being hybrids. Maybe.

That said, what is more important and pertinent to the case at hand is we have a very valid explanation about a mystery morph from a well respected breeder in the industry. More cards are on the table and with the promised forthcoming pictures there will be even more available. As I've said and maintained all along...it is going to be hard to argue anything when it is all there. Doubters will always be doubters but when there is nowhere else to point a finger, no one will follow what they are pointing toward.
 
Supply / Demand . . .

Simple supply and demand. Its a new morph, so right now its going to be priced higher than most because that is where the market is willing to pay for it. Not too long ago Ashy was at the same level of prices. Now they're at a more affordable level. Your second statement is correct too, because they are a codominant morph, their price will probably drop quicker than most recessive morphs because they are more easily reproduced. Simple supply and demand whoty ;)

Of course, in any market, supply and demand are the driving forces that impact price. I didn't say value cuz that word is relative AND subjective.

As it is with many corn morphs, the "value" of the Tesseras is related to appearance AND potential. Also, like many other morphs, one of the best parts of breeding corns is the "thrill of discovery" gained from the anticipation of never knowing what variatiants will emerge from those eggs. Like there are no two "insert species here" members alike, Tessera offers variety on a potentially unprecedented scale. Stripe, busted stripe, wide stripe, narrow stripe, virtually no stripe, busy tessellated laterals, boring tessellation, and/or any combinations thereof. And let's not forget that while the quality of striping is unique to this species, the fact that the stripe recovers after breaks has never been seen in a corn mutation before. In stripes and striped motleys, once the stripe begins to break, it fizzles out entirely. Hence, the mutation behaves in reliable Mendelian fashion, but polygenetic forces will render decades of surprises. Of course, mixing them with the color (and color/pattern compounds) just pyramids the product inventory. To me, the main value in Tesseras is the fact that they are the first pattern mutation that is dominant in heritable fashion. Bred to ANY other corn (mutatant or not) renders 50% Tesseras. Add to that the reality that we still don't know what synergistic products may arise, and the reasons for higher prices are suddenly apparent. One novel aspect this "motley-looking" mutation provides is maintaining the black margins (white in albinos) around the markings. In the case of the classic Tessera "striping", black or white bordering the dorsal stripe zone was heretofore impossible with Motley-types. Also, black margins are retained on some of the lateral markings. Imagine this scheme in other color mutations?


BTW, in defense of Graham's comment about intentionally not hybridizing or promoting existing hybrids, most people don't consider Ultra types HYBRIDS. When they were first becoming popular, many on this forum debated their origins - even though the originator stated that he used a "gray snow" in their creation. It went back and forth to the point that some walked away from the exercise claiming that in the absence of proof, they proclaimed them to be PURE CORNS. You see, every new morph must endure the slings and arrows of suspicion. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it's when people refuse to accept facts that the issue causes division in the ranks of corn keepers. And since that division of opinions essentially defines the reality that all people are different, nothing can be done to change that. I just wanted to point out that saying the words Ultra types are hybrids has been taboo, and often considered politically improper. Since most of us have an Ultra-type (or 10, 20, 50) and because most of us agree that keeping the P. guttatus species as pure as possible is the right thing to do, subconsciously, they have not been considered hybrids. The originally intergrade CREAMSICLES that are now humanly defined as HYBRIDS are probably more repulsed in the hobby than Ultra types - even though they are the product of much closer related species than the Ultras.

Back to work. I'll peek in as often as possible to address Tessera issues.

Thank all of you for reading.
 

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Well stated, Jeff. . .

All of your comments, Jeff.

Well stated. I'm pleased that we are on the same page, even though we have not always agreed on important cornsnake issues in the past.

NOT DIRECTED TOWARD ANY ONE PERSON :
I repeat that before threads reach potentially insulting levels, someone should tap Don the shoulder (on issues pertaining to me) - to preclude confusion of intent. We need to keep this forum (and others) focused on their conceptual platform. INFORMATION SHARING.
 
NOT DIRECTED TOWARD ANY ONE PERSON :
I repeat that before threads reach potentially insulting levels, someone should tap Don the shoulder (on issues pertaining to me) - to preclude confusion of intent. We need to keep this forum (and others) focused on their conceptual platform. INFORMATION SHARING.

I will keep that in mind in the future. I think many people are hesitant to disturb you during the busy breeding season.
 
Don, thankyou for the immense amount of time you must have spent producing those pictures. Those non-mutant siblings are some of the most beautiful 'normals' I've ever seen. The quality of your animals continues to amase. :D
 
Thanks, Nanci

I will keep that in mind in the future. I think many people are hesitant to disturb you during the busy breeding season.

Like your comment, I swear that three of every five people that call or write start the conversation with the phrase, "Don, I know you're busy, but . . . ".

I will answer any and all emails that reach me. Phone calls can be a distraction, but I check email every hour or two.

Thanks,
 
I second what Nanci said - thank you Don for adding your most valuable information to this discussion, especially when you have so much going on at this time of year.
 
I looked at about 50% of those pictures of normals & nothing stood out to my n00bie eye as clearly hybrid-like. Take that for what it's worth, but the pictures are good quality & I would think people with the knowledge could tell from those pictures!
 
Don, thank you for coming here and shedding some light and pictures on the situation. Those are some absolutely beautiful babies you have there.
 
Let's just say, after a trip thru other "is it an evil hybird?" threads I am thinking that if Tessaras are "potentially hybird" then my project, which doesn't contain Tessera or ultra should be labelled the same way! LOL.
 
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