Info for would be corn breeders

hippiebrian said:

In some ways I feel the same. It would be a hard decision for me to make, as I love the snakes. I couldn't cull them and don't have the time or space for 30-40 snakes that weren't "marketable". This is but one reason I'll never be a breeder.

That being said, I think it's a bit hypocritical for any snake owner to be claiming the respect for life arguement for breeders not culling. Is the snake's life more important than the mouse's life that is given to feed it? Really, if you can claim to have such high "respect for life" you wouldn't be able to stomach feeding your snake, or even keeping them. And I'm betting you're not vegan, although I could be wrong about that.

If you claim love for the snakes, like I do, than claim the love for snakes. However if you feed animals to your snakes and eat them yourself, to claim "respect for life" based on being religious and still do these things, well, that's just hypocritical and a poor arguement at best.

Sorry, just my 2 cents.

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That's a good point! I actually did have a bit of a problem with feeding them mice when I first started. Maybe I just got callosed I don't know? I think God made them to eat mice not me so I am giving them what they naturally eat. I eat Beef, and Fish, and Chicken so what's the problem. At least there is a good reason for them dying. It's to support other life.

But the snake eats mice (or something) as part of the food chain. Whether the mice were produced by humans, or the snake was out catching its own mice, it would still be eating mice. I can understand culling deformed babies, and babies that won't eat no matter what. I cannot fathom killing hatchlings that are not the target morph. To me, that is immoral. You "created" the life by planning the breeding- if you can't take responsibility for the "by-products," then in my opinion you shouldn't have the privilege of caring for God's creatures. No matter how you justify it, it is wrong.

Nanci said:

But the snake eats mice (or something) as part of the food chain. Whether the mice were produced by humans, or the snake was out catching its own mice, it would still be eating mice. I can understand culling deformed babies, and babies that won't eat no matter what. I cannot fathom killing hatchlings that are not the target morph. To me, that is immoral. You "created" the life by planning the breeding- if you can't take responsibility for the "by-products," then in my opinion you shouldn't have the privilege of caring for God's creatures. No matter how you justify it, it is wrong.

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Wow, I couldn't have said it better! I was begining to wonder what I was doing here? Thank You for some light at the end of this tunnel Nanci!

In regards to the hypocrisy in the "respect for life" statement, i agree with Snakehead and Nanci. Snakes eat mice. That's their relationship in the food chain. One dies to sustain the life of another.

Look, i'm not some vegan hippie tree hugging peta member. I just think that killing baby snakes because you like blue more than red is a bit silly.

I understand that breeders provide a necessary role in the pet trade and they often have to make difficult choices and do unpleasant things, so that regular people like myself has access to a variety of beautiful pets. But unless you are breeding them as your primary source of income (in that case, you and your family's well being is more important), then i think you need to take a step back and reevaluate your practice. I think some of us get caught up in the morph game, objectify the animals, forget why we love them in the first place, and thus fail to treat them humanely. Sorry if this sounds preachy. I am not perfect. I'm guilty of doing some neglectful things to my pets in the past. Things that i am not proud of. That is why i take the moral obligation in owning pets much more seriously now.

To Nanci and Snakehead:

Thank you for sharing your perspectives. I was starting to feel like i was from a different planet. You guys have a business and reputation to protect. Often in these type of situations, it is easier to remain silent and not cause any waves. I'm just a nobody, so it was easy for me to share my opinions, but it takes a lot of courage for people like you to step up and go against the prevailing opinion.

Well for Chip it kinda is his source of income, he has a pet store.
TBH I have yet to see any other breeders on this particular forum say they would cull a snake for being the wrong color or temperament. I don't do that and neither do most people. But I will cull the non eaters instead of force feeding them, and I cull the ones that might pass on something like kinks, missing eyes, etc. I would prefer to buy from a breeder who is culling those also. Every snake I cull is part of a food chain just like a mouse. It is used as a feeder for my king snakes. Not so different from the mice in my perception. Oh and there is a couple other threads which you may want to check out where we have discussed it here and here

Snakehead, what does me being female have ANYTHING to do with my opinion?

Also, selling off non-ideal snakes "for cheap if I have to" is not taking responsibility for your 'by-products' so much as passing the buck.

All I have to say is, I am glad there are people who cull out snakes that are badly kinked or have other issues. We had a few babies that had at least 2 kinks a piece and one had 5 kinks at Petco over the past month, all but one was sold, but I was surprised that they got out of the breeders place before being seen that they were deformed. I would not sell kinked babies, unless the kink was in a place that it could not hinder the babies feeding or defecating, even then I would have a problem with it, due to the chance of the baby being bred in the future and possibly passing that on to its progeny.

I respect life, but I also understand food chain mechanics. It is not my place to put my morals on my pets. I like snakes, and I like mice and rats. In fact I just had a talk with my manager about a rat we were going to send to the exterminator because she escaped. I will be bringing her home next Friday when I get paid and can get the litter and food for her.

Now honestly, this discussion was really good, until it turned to a debate of the moral's of culling.

I used to breed chickens, for show and food, and there were times when we had 30 hens and 50 roosters. Well, we would pick the roosters that we wanted, and cull the rest, I think we were able to put 20 in the freezer. The rest went to either friends, family, or a bonfire. I know it sounds harsh, but no one wants roosters without hens, and everyone's freezers were full. It was a hard thing to do, but growing up where I was, it was just something that happened.

Aaron, I agree with you. But some people here would say, "Well you should take responsibility for your animals or have not bred them at all!" The chickens were culled and used for food, but were otherwise healthy. Culled snakes are useful as Kingsnake food. I honestly think culling IS taking responsibility for your animals MORESO than wholeselling them to a pet store or selling them 'for cheap' to any shlomo who wants them.

The reason kinked babies came to Petco is because "breeders" that sell to Petco really are only concerned about money.

Candachan said:

Aaron, I agree with you. But some people here would say, "Well you should take responsibility for your animals or have not bred them at all!" The chickens were culled and used for food, but were otherwise healthy. Culled snakes are useful as Kingsnake food. I honestly think culling IS taking responsibility for your animals MORESO than wholeselling them to a pet store or selling them 'for cheap' to any shlomo who wants them.

The reason kinked babies came to Petco is because "breeders" that sell to Petco really are only concerned about money.

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I agree with responsible culling, and just to be clear, I was about 15 when the chicken thing happened. I have also culled baby chickens due to deformities that happened in incubation, or neurological issues that showed up later.
I have a King snake, just in case I may have to cull some babies in the future. I also plan on getting a Speckled King (my favorite type of king snake) for a pet/culling babies, if it ever comes up.
I figured as much about the breeders selling to Petco,
But, we did get in a really pretty Anery, and what I think is a baby Caramel, lots of yellows on this little guy/gal...lol

Again, to be clear culling due to physical deformities, kinks, chronic health problems/diseases, non-feeding, or other detrimental health issues is acceptable in my opinion. That is responsible culling.

Culling chickens when you have 50 roosters and 30 hens is not responsible culling? They're not deformed or unhealthy, just loud and obnoxious.

Candachan said:

Culling chickens when you have 50 roosters and 30 hens is not responsible culling? They're not deformed or unhealthy, just loud and obnoxious.

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Let's tackle one issue at a time. We're talking about snake breeding. I'm not familiar enough with the farm life and would rather not comment on it.

Nanci said:

But the snake eats mice (or something) as part of the food chain. Whether the mice were produced by humans, or the snake was out catching its own mice, it would still be eating mice. I can understand culling deformed babies, and babies that won't eat no matter what. I cannot fathom killing hatchlings that are not the target morph. To me, that is immoral. You "created" the life by planning the breeding- if you can't take responsibility for the "by-products," then in my opinion you shouldn't have the privilege of caring for God's creatures. No matter how you justify it, it is wrong.

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AMEN! & AMEN!

I have never had to cull a snake but I have had one or two geckos that I have culled (hatch deformities). I Co2 them then I feed them to bigger geckos. Does that put me in the supporting life category or just the waist not want not category?

Culling needs to be done from time to time. I dont see doing it for any other reason than deformities. In the wild these animals would be the first to die by predator because they are slower. That's the way mother nature works. My 0.02 anyways.

I have really enjoyed this thread, well up until it was hijacked and turned into a debate about culling. As a newbie I can totally relate to the pull some people experience. Being a newbie to snakes I decided I would get 2010 babies and raise them, learning and growing experience as they mature. I haven't really given breeding a lot of though but when thinking about adding a new addition I look at who that new addition could be paired up with in the future if I do decide to breed but I have 3 years to make that decision. Until then I am really enjoying my babies and watching them grow. All of the points touched on in this thread are really good things to think about, even culling babies if need be. Over the next 3 years I will weigh all of the pros and cons of breeding and give it a lot of thought. I do not believe that people should breed animals just because they can. I have worked at the Humane Society and rescued, fostered, and rehabed parrots for over 15 years so I have seen first hand how unresponsible owners and breeders effect animals. I research any animal I am thinking about adding in my home because of those experiences.

As for culling, I grew up on a farm and we raised all of our own meat and grew our own veggies. When you breed and raise animals, mother nature is not always nice and it's cruel to make the baby suffer until it passes away when you can put it out of it's misery.

I'm not so sure the culling has really taken this thread completely off topic. It is definitely info for would be breeders, something you will have to think about.
Yes some breeders may go as far as culling perfectly healthy hatchlings. I won't- because I know to not breed so many in the first place if there won't be a demand. That's why I usually breed just 4 clutches a year, I know from being in this hobby for a while that in the course of one year I can sell or find homes for that many, but not more. So many corns are being bred that they are now becoming a "disposable" pet - look at the prices we are seeing on amels, normals, even ghosts these days. I love ghosts but have stopped breeding them for a while until some of my holdbacks reach adulthood that I think will produce something really special, not because I think I will make more money from them but because there are so many out there already. By not making them in the first place I won't have to cull them OR end up selling them for disposable pet prices.

So just to clear something up for myself. (Hypothetically) If I take my normals from a breeding and feed them to my kingsnake is it culling or just providing food to meet the natural feeding routines of that snake? We say mice are fine cause they are natural.

Devils advocate here: In nature a snake that cannot blend in to his natural enviroment is easy prey for predators. Natural selection takes care of "wrongly" colored snakes.

Btw just interested in opinions. I am enjoying this conversation.

smallet said:

So just to clear something up for myself. (Hypothetically) If I take my normals from a breeding and feed them to my kingsnake is it culling or just providing food to meet the natural feeding routines of that snake? We say mice are fine cause they are natural.

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That's a good point because it raises the issue of "intent". Did you intend to breed your corns solely and specifically as a source of food for your kingsnake or are you only giving it what you don't want? I have no problems with the former, even though i haven't heard of anyone doing that, but i'm sure it happens. I would think that rodents would be more plentiful and cost effective. Additionally, i feel that feeding kingsnakes with corns that have been *responsibly* culled is a great idea. I guess, you just have to be honest with yourself. In the case of the latter, why don't you want an otherwise healthy normal corn hatchling whose parents you chose to breed? Would you breed a pair of pet dogs and then feed the puppy that doesn't have the cute floppy ears you're looking for to your pet tiger (assuming tigers like eating dogs, and dogs are high in nutritional value)? I know that's an extreme comparison, but in both cases, the animals that you are breeding are your pets. If you are comfortable with your answer, then that's your prerogative.

I view my snakes as pets and as a pet owner, i have a moral obligation for their welfare, but some people apparently don't see theirs in the same way. They objectify them as disposable things with nice shiny colors. At the end of the day, all this collateral damage is for what? For a snake that has pretty colors? Or a snake that doesn't act like a snake? Or in the name of "improving" the gene pool? Improving in what way? Corn snakes are doing just fine out in the wild. They're not on the endangered species list. You're "improving" it for captive life, which is self serving enough, so why not try to be more humane about it?

I'm just going to let this thread die. I'm sorry if i offended anyone. Trust me, i'm usually very tolerant of different beliefs and would prefer to not get into a debate. I don't seek out conflict. I would prefer us to be one big happy family. You guys have a good thing here and a helpful community, but i felt that this issue needed to be addressed.