Copperhead in the barn.........How do we handle this??!!?

John3:16 said:

I LOVE LOVE LOVE this idea....
the only problem is that we are leaving next year..our lease is up then...BUT
When we get into a place that we own and will be living at for more than one year, I WILL do this....
We are fairly near the university of TN, I wonder if they could help.

I'm bumed...the herp major went back to Vanderbilt university and can't help any more....he suggested snake tongs........what do you all think?

Dedicated 5 gal snake bucket (with lid lol) hung out there and tongs....take em up to frozen head state park?...is that even legal?

Noobs using tongs....input?

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I bet UTenn could help! And I don't think anyone would care if you relocated a hot. You could practice with a rubber snake with the tongs, and/or see if you can get some tong lessons from a herper or from someone at UTenn. I bet you could learn it quickly and then you'd have a good skill.

well....

Well i believe you did the right thing. Family always comes first no matter what. If i was you i would see if i couldnt get my hands on some adult kingsnakes, They usually take care of poisonous snakes and any mice problem you would have out there. Just a thought.

Thanks for the link, but that won't work in the hay stack..no open floor space.


It is excellent and perhaps should be put in a sticky for easy reference.
Thanks again!

:-offtopicOh....you don't look like a John, Jane say but not John.
Love the hair color too. :crazy01:

Being out so far from "proper" help. I think you did what you had too. And you shouldn’t be condemned for it!!
But thanks for your thread... we have learn to handle the problem in a more friendly way.

Well thank you....

The John3:16 is a favorite verse from the bible.....I just hate trying to set up user names..seems like every one I pick is "used"..soooooo I went with that one....:spinner:
It worked, and I didn't have to sit there for hours typing name after name....

I think I might get picks of the area in question...I think that lots of people are picturing a garage with animals in it..not a old fashioned livestock barn...no fancy horse stable with a concrete isle here...
I do think though for the average person who reads this, the ideas are just fab!!!

:crazy02:

I had one more thought, based on the reminder that this is a barn. I visualized my dad's family's place. A rake with a long handle would allow for easily raking a hot into a trashcan if it was in the corner of the barn somewhere. Put trashcan in front of hot open end forward using trashcan to keep yourself safe, reach over trashcan and rake the snake into the trashcan then grab the handle of the can from the outside, stand it up and slam the lid! It's snake-in-a-can not snakes-on-a-plane. I will have to try it out in the basement with a rubber snake of the right size (my apartment basement is AWFUL and full of clutter so couldn't be worse than a barn full of stuff).

Huh. I don't normally dig up old threads, but this one reinforces a point I've been attempting to make here and here--that some well-meaning people aren't seeing things for what they are.

This bugged me at the time, but wasn't worth commenting on at the time because then it would just have been "picking." It's neither nice nor worthwhile to "pick" on someone. Now, though, it is part of an argument I'm making about a larger pattern that some people appear to be overlooking. I care more about those people appearing to be "duped" than I care about the actual generator of the pattern.

So here's another example of something that stanks. In this thread, snakemaster24 argues strongly that, despite acknowledged risk of the animal's presence to children, despite the copperhead in question being legally the property of the OP, who therefore has the legal right to destroy it, killing the animal was morally wrong. One of his logical arguments against the destruction of the snake is bolded, below, by me.

snakemaster24 said:

Now this obviously has sparked some sort of debate and I figure I put in my .02. Now Copperheads, while venomous are not USUALLY deadly and should be considered dangerous nonetheless . . . Snakes are a very important part of an ecosystem and killing one can be very bad for a ecosystem. . . . As much as we worry about or children, loved ones and mammalian pets (as annoying as they can be ). We need to remember that these are wild animals that need to be able to reproduce in the wild to keep equalibrium in the wild.

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Tricksterpup lauds this opining (granted, there's more that follows, but this is the most relevant to my point) and says people shouldn't be picking on David.

tricksterpup said:

And the sad part is David is approaching this Conversation logically (emphasis mine) and with passion. He is looking at the big picture and you people are attacking him. To be honest, i think David is growing to be a good man (emphasis mine), he will be the type of herper who will talk to his kids about the animals and to back away and leave them alone or get him and he will move the animal.

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No fewer than 3 weeks after this passionate and logical position statement about how wrong it is to kill a copperhead even when there's known risk to young children, we see a lovely photoshoot of no fewer than 5 WC African fat-tailed geckos.

So which is this good man who makes logical arguments? The one who states that it's morally wrong for someone to else to kill a snake to protect his/her kids because the ecosystem is more important than the kids while he, himself enjoys the spoils of disturbed African ecosystems (x5, at least) because the spoils of those disturbed African ecosystems "fetch lots of money?" Is that the one you mean? Or maybe this is logical because geckos aren't important parts of their ecosystems? Yeah. Not according to my understanding of ecology . . .

Something smells bad here, guys. And we've smelled this very same smell before. The smell hasn't changed. And if you don't smell it, methinks your sniffer's broken, and it makes me worry for you.

I'm confused as to why someone would take their time to dig up a 3 month old thread for the pure purpose of taking a pot shot at a child? I don't kill wild snakes, I simply leave them alone. However, introducing WC populations is the reason any of us can and do keep herps in the first place. David works for a company that LEGALLY imports all sorts of WC and captive animals for resale.....is that a problem? Not in my opinion it's the nature of business in which all of us dump our money. I don't see any correlation between killing a snake in it's habitat and importing animals for breeding programs to further the captive species. For those that do hurry and rehome all your animals now because they wouldn't be here without someone capturing and breeding the offspring you own

danielle said:

I'm confused as to why someone would take their time to dig up a 3 month old thread for the pure purpose of taking a pot shot at a child? I don't kill wild snakes, I simply leave them alone. However, introducing WC populations is the reason any of us can and do keep herps in the first place. David works for a company that LEGALLY imports all sorts of WC and captive animals for resale.....is that a problem? Not in my opinion it's the nature of business in which all of us dump our money. I don't see any correlation between killing a snake in it's habitat and importing animals for breeding programs to further the captive species. For those that do hurry and rehome all your animals now because they wouldn't be here without someone capturing and breeding the offspring you own

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When said child (you said it first, not me) keeps begging and begging and begging to be treated like an adult? If any adult behaved like he has in the past few months, he would have been thrown under the bus, and possibly banned (i.e. Wade). There's been quite a few posts made that are more reminiscent of "old David" than the man he claims to have grown up to be.

In regards to the legal importation of wild caught stock, yes, it may be legal, but it can still be very damaging to a fragile ecosystem. Legality has absolutely nothing to do with ecology. It's perfectly LEGAL for me to wander through the woods around here and go camping. However, it is not nearly as ecologically friendly if I decide I want to blaze my own trail, and eliminate a good amount of native flora to do so.

danielle said:

I'm confused as to why someone would take their time to dig up a 3 month old thread for the pure purpose of taking a pot shot at a child?

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Since you missed it the first time,

desertanimal said:

I don't normally dig up old threads, but this one reinforces a point I've been attempting to make here and here--that some well-meaning people aren't seeing things for what they are.

This bugged me at the time, but wasn't worth commenting on at the time because then it would just have been "picking." It's neither nice nor worthwhile to "pick" on someone. Now, though, it is part of an argument I'm making about a larger pattern that some people appear to be overlooking. I care more about those people appearing to be "duped" than I care about the actual generator of the pattern.

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danielle said:

However, introducing WC populations is the reason any of us can and do keep herps in the first place. David works for a company that LEGALLY imports all sorts of WC and captive animals for resale.....is that a problem? Not in my opinion it's the nature of business in which all of us dump our money. I don't see any correlation between killing a snake in it's habitat and importing animals for breeding programs to further the captive species. For those that do hurry and rehome all your animals now because they wouldn't be here without someone capturing and breeding the offspring you own

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You will notice that I did not make a position statement about the appropriateness of manipulating wild populations for our purposes in this thread when that was the issue that was being addressed, nor did I do so in David's WC gecko thread, or in the post to which you are referring. I made a position statement regarding the hypocrisy of David's unyielding critique of someone else's manipulation of wild populations of copperheads to serve his/her purpose of protecting his/her children while David, himself, turned right around and participated in the manipulation of wild populations of African fat-tailed geckos to suit his own purposes, which, no matter what those purposes are, were not on the order of protecting the lives of children.

Your points are topically connected to mine, but they are not logically part of the same discussion.

Of course Robbie I don't think anyone is saying go catch a bunch of indigo's or other protected species, nor damage habitats. I just don't think this thread is doing anything to calm the waters, is pointless, and was done in spite. Obviously we all know how much of an ass David used to be and he earned every enemy he has made here. That doesn't mean people need to go out of their way to constantly harp on everything he types or bring it up again 3 months after the fact. David is a child and that was not a slight- he is 17. The adults who target him......they don't have age to use as an excuse. Why not let it die, ignore it, and walk away. No one is worth all the grief this kid yes has caused, but also takes here, JMO

Your discussion is not logical at all sorry, but really I must disagree with you. David bought some fat tails that had been imported for the purpose of selling them to a buyer...any buyer that is. I breed many species that are not captive to the United States as do many others- thats entirely different than killing an animal or destroying it's habitat. I however, have a family first mentality so had this copperhead been killed I surely wouldn't point a finger at the parent who thought they were doing what was necessary.

However, none of this rambling is the point for me. My point is why and what would possess you to dig up a 3 month old thread for the sole purpose of making David look like a disingenuous hypocrite? You don't like him which is fine, but why go out of your way to shine a negative light on someone else? Even if your correlation held water it's still completely unnecessary. Why not just PM him?

snakemaster24 said:

We need to remember that these are wild animals that need to be able to reproduce in the wild to keep equalibrium in the wild.

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danielle said:

Your discussion is not logical at all sorry, but really I must disagree with you. David bought some fat tails that had been imported for the purpose of selling them to a buyer...any buyer that is. I breed many species that are not captive to the United States as do many others- thats entirely different than killing an animal or destroying it's habitat.

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Ecologically speaking, removing the animal from its environment for any reason is all the same--the animal is removed from the population in which David claims to think it should be allowed to stay to "keep equilibrium." The merits of that point can be debated, but the merits of that point and whether it is sometimes "worth it" or sometimes not is not what I was taking issue with. Therefore, your argument about the merits of that point is irrelevant to the issue I am raising.

danielle said:

My point is why and what would possess you to dig up a 3 month old thread for the sole purpose of making David look like a disingenuous hypocrite? You don't like him which is fine, but why go out of your way to shine a negative light on someone else? Even if your correlation held water it's still completely unnecessary. Why not just PM him?

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I answered your question before you asked it.

desertanimal said:

Now, though, it is part of an argument I'm making about a larger pattern that some people appear to be overlooking. I care more about those people appearing to be "duped" than I care about the actual generator of the pattern.

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Edited to add: This is not to say that I don't think the point you raise is important or valid to discuss, it simply isn't discussion that's relevant to the argument I am making here.

But it is sometimes worth it to capture WC species for captive reproduction and sometimes not.... The argument you are making is you feel the need to point out a statement David made about animals in their habitat that you have turned into a blanket statement to make him look like a hypocrite. Sometimes it is okay, and sometimes it's not- there's no right answer Your intention is to point out to people who support, or chose to accept David as 17 and brush off his immaturity that he is actually immature and should be looked down on?

David can't pull the wool over anyone's eye's he's a kid who sometimes lets his britches get a little too big and shoots off his big mouth. I've never met a 17 year old American who was infallible. In other countries kids his age have been working for years, are parents, and supporter's of their households- not so much here,lol David goes to school, works, has a healthy hobby, isn't out doing drugs and impregnating a bunch of little girls, and tries to be helpful....albeit a little too much sometimes, but still not worthy of all this drama. I own WC species, you do as well, and so do many many members here- not something worthwhile to bash over.

danielle said:

I own WC species, you do as well, and so do many many members here- not something worthwhile to bash over.

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I wasn't bashing him for owning WC species. And I haven't ever bashed anyone for doing so.

I was criticizing him for using an argument based on apparent concern for ecosystems to criticize someone else for killing a single snake to protect human children, and then turning right around and buying at least 5 animals that were removed from their ecosystems. And if we want to get into the nuances of when it's right and wrong, then according to David it's wrong to remove an animal from the ecosystem to protect the safety of human children, but not wrong to remove them for monetary gain and/or to establish them in the pet trade. That is not MY position, that is the ineluctable conclusion one must draw about HIS position based on the facts and statements he has presented (unless you conclude that he is simply disingenuous--which is my conclusion).

I am not arguing about whether ecosystem manipulation is valid or not and under what conditions. I am arguing that David's statements and behavior are not consistent with a position of honesty. I fail to see how you still fail to see the distinction, but I don't think I can possibly explain it more clearly than I have, so I suppose there's not much point in my continuing to try.

Look you know I like you and do not mean to be rude or offensive here. I think killing an animal is different than capturing and reproducing a species, and I am sure you do too in some ways. Maybe I read David's response differently than you because what I read is killing an animal in their habitat is wrong regardless of ecosystem impact. Of course your correct that whether an animal is killed or removed the ecosystem is still changed to some degree depending on the number of animals killed/removed. However, I don't think David meant it as a blanket statement, or at least intended it to come off that way. He is not always the best at communicating exactly what he means- he is a boy after all

I can totally see how David rubs people the wrong way believe me. I have 2 kids and siblings that are still teens so that may be why I am passive when it comes to the things he says. I just think it's important to remember he is a kid and we are adults. There is a way to tell a kid they are being a butt head without being offensive. I tell him all the time when he is overstepping the line or comes off as an arrogant pain- he needs that kind of constructive direction to evolve into a fully functioning adult. I just think if people ignored him, or took the time to constructively PM him and speak their minds this drama could be avoided.

17 year olds are inconsistent by nature because their mental development is at a weird kind of pinnacle between being a child yet finally moving toward the adult world. I know at 17 I had views that have changed drastically and I'm sure I'm not alone here. I don't think he was being hypocritical (or at least knowingly) and you do which is fine- different views are what make us all unique and add perspective in life. But, when anyone goes out of their way to point out the faults of another without being directly provoked it just appears out of line to me. Who cares who likes, hates, or tolerates David he is one of many awesome members here. Maybe if people tried to bite their tongue or least keep their grievances with him confined to PM's he would control himself better when insults start flying?

danielle said:

Maybe if people tried to bite their tongue or least keep their grievances with him confined to PM's he would control himself better when insults start flying?

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I'm sorry, but as someone who's been involved in David drama's from the beginning, that really doesn't work. All it eventually winds up boiling down to is David getting ticked, flying off the handle, and calling you a stupid little b****. Been there, done that, MULTIPLE times. And then as soon as you call him out on it, "Oh... my life is so hard... I keep moving from place to place... I didn't mean it... I'm trying to do better! Why can't you see that? Give me (yet) another chance!" Gods forbid you report a post, or something of that nature, because that's DIRECTLY picking on him, even if it's completely warranted, because someone, once, a few years ago, did something almost similar to a situation that maybe almost like the one he's in. And if the mods didn't do anything about it then, why should they now? Oh right. Because everybody hates him, and is out to get him. For PM's to work, BOTH parties have to be willing to make it work.

I do see David fail to communicate productively Robbie, but I also see he is still a child. Many of us myself included have had our moments when we respond in the heat of the moment and go over the line. It doesn't make it right and no you can not blame your bad attitude on the mishaps in your life, but teens usually do- they haven't learned the same coping mechanisms they need to yet.

My point is in this case David didn't attack first. Someone disagreed with his point of view and then called him out on his snakes passing which was a low blow. If people just can't ignore his 17 year old moments thats fine, but why respond over and over? Picking on someone is never warranted. Say specifically what you disagree with without name calling and pot shots. The things people have said to him make them look less mature than him half the time- it's just sooooo grossly overboard IMO. There is an ignore function here last I remember that is free to use. I love you too btw, but going tit for tat with a child is counterproductive and shines a negative light on those making them.

danielle said:

He is not always the best at communicating exactly what he means- he is a boy after all

I can totally see how David rubs people the wrong way believe me. I have 2 kids and siblings that are still teens so that may be why I am passive when it comes to the things he says. I just think it's important to remember he is a kid and we are adults. There is a way to tell a kid they are being a butt head without being offensive. I tell him all the time when he is overstepping the line or comes off as an arrogant pain- he needs that kind of constructive direction to evolve into a fully functioning adult. I just think if people ignored him, or took the time to constructively PM him and speak their minds this drama could be avoided.

17 year olds are inconsistent by nature because their mental development is at a weird kind of pinnacle between being a child yet finally moving toward the adult world. I know at 17 I had views that have changed drastically and I'm sure I'm not alone here. I don't think he was being hypocritical (or at least knowingly) and you do which is fine- different views are what make us all unique and add perspective in life. But, when anyone goes out of their way to point out the faults of another without being directly provoked it just appears out of line to me. Who cares who likes, hates, or tolerates David he is one of many awesome members here. Maybe if people tried to bite their tongue or least keep their grievances with him confined to PM's he would control himself better when insults start flying?

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To let his age be a valid excuse for his actions does a big disservice to the other youngsters of this forum who are that age but do know how to be respectful to the 'elderly' and know how to hold their tongue.
OK I can understand him being devastated because he lost some snakes. But when in that same thread we see thinly veiled for sale ads, a statement that TOS mean nothing, and a panda pic after a thread by Rich asking us all not to attach those anymore, that is pushing it. A tragedy does not entitle you to exemption from the forum rules.
And when some of the cs members have had enough and decide to call him on it once again here comes all his friends to tell us it should all be ok because after all he is just a kid.
I know Danielle that you and many other members like him and want to help him but maybe when you come to his defense you are protecting him from lessons it might be better for him to learn, harsh as they may be.