Don't cry for the mice!

OK...so I have been biting my tongue for a while. Here goes...I really don't understand why people are so concerned about the "feelings" of mice. Bottom line is that if you read this forum, the main function of mice is food. Why do people spend $100 to kill a mouse with a CO2 chamber to feed 10 or so snakes? Grant it, a death chamber is probably a good thing is you have a mass operation like Don or Kathy. Sure, I will admit that they are cute and fuzzy, but I don't lose sleep over feeding a live pinky to my snake. Now, if I were feeding a full grown mouse, I would prekill it - not for the mouses' sake, but for the safety of my snake. All this talk about "humanely" killing a mouse baffles me - notice the root word here (human). Mice are rodents; its that simple. Don't feel bad for them. Its a food chain; animals die all the time so that another animal can eat. You don't see antelope being "gassed" just before a lion eats it. And what about wild mice; they dont get killed nicely before a snake eats them - they are either strangled to death or poisoned to death. So theres my rant. I'm sure this will piss some people off. For me, the easiest, most economically way to off a mouse is to freeze it. And for anyone who is going to say, "Well how would you like it if...", I say to them, I am not a mouse, I am human. I trump mice, so that "what if" does not apply.

Peace

I think a lot of people here feel that its just about ethics. You are entitled to freeze adult mice if you wish, its not like anyone is going to stop you. I think that most people just think that its cruel and that there are better ways to do things. For adult mice, a cheap alternative to a gas chamber would be thumping them. Of course when you are feeding 20 or 30 snakes at a time, that's a lot of thumping. If you threw 20 or 30 mice into a freezer, they would all huddle together and it would take all day for them to freeze to death. Don't you think that's a little bit cruel?:sobstory: :nope:

I don't like mice; they disgust me. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to make an effort to deal with them as humanely as possible. And I wouldn't say that humans "trump" mice in the grand scheme of things. There are around 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe. The difference in significance between a human and a mouse, if any, is negligible.

Do you really think it is a matter of "crying for the mice" or just a general respect for other living creatures?
We are not talking about wild rodents or wild snakes. These are domesticated animals in our care. The whole point is that we have the capability to give another creature a relatively painless (humane) death.
I understand that it is sometimes necessary to feed live prey. I still don't like it because I don't like to witness or be the cause of another's suffering-human or not.
I don't currently raise my own feeders, but if I did I would want to have a humane way of killing them. Its just a matter of human ethics.
If you only have a few to feed it doesn't cost anymore to buy your feeders already frozen. So why would you buy one live mouse only to freeze it? As Bobo's Mama said, thumping it would be a much quicker alternative.

Sorry for rambling...

Your argument seems to contradict itself. You start by saying that we humans are above and beyond animals. Then, you add that lions aren't gassing their prey before eating it, so why should we. Well, you answered that in the first part. We have the capacity to feel and care more than animals out in the wild. As well as the intelligence to do something about it. So to say you don't think we should be humane about killing prey items because we're better than them, and then use how animals hunt in the wild to justify your lack of compassion... those 2 points just don't sound right to me being used in the same argument. :shrugs: And not to mention the fact that being hunted would probably be a bit quicker than slowly freezing to death, anyways.

But regardless, you can do things however you choose (the beauty of free-will, although it's not always a good thing), but I will continue to be a humane human, not an arrogant one.

Why? Because most people are capable of empathy, and as a result they understand that a mouse can experience suffering and pain and other unpleasant things.

The difference between good and bad is not simply a result of following rules because you will get punished if you get caught, or not following rules when you know you can get away with it. A truly good person follows a set of rules that they believe is right, because they understand the consequences of their actions and do not want to cause bad things to happen, to themselves OR others. Or, more simply, and to paraphrase an old quote, "a good measure of a man's character is how he treats those who can do him no good."

And for anyone who is going to say, "Well how would you like it if...", I say to them, I am not a mouse, I am human. I trump mice, so that "what if" does not apply.

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The same line of reasoning applies to younger siblings too, or if I have a gun and someone else doesn't. If I can beat up my little brother, then "what if" doesn't apply, and why should I care if he suffers? If I can rob someone, then I trump them, so what's the problem? I am not suffering, and that's what is important, right?

The reason I care so much is because I am a big believer in the Golden Rule. Which just says "others", not "other humans". Imagine what a place this world would be if people just treated others how they would like to be treated.

I also think I have read a few times that serial killers often start killing animals before they act out on humans. I strongly believe a lot of problems we see today are due to desensitization to violence. Viewing enough violence in T.V., Movies, Video Games, as well as accepting violence against animals will desensitize you against violence and is not healthy. Sure not all people who watch violent acts or don't care about the pain and suffering of animals will turn into killers, but I remember a time when I watched a lot of violent movies, after awhile I could watch the most horrific, graphic acts of violence and not bat an eye. Shortly after my son was born, I no longer had time for movies for about a year. After a one year break, I watched one movie where someone got shot and I was horrified. So when people say that watching "fake" violence or violence against animals doesn't effect people, I don't buy in.

So if it's ok for it to suffer because it's "just a mouse" at what point does something become important enough to care? Is it "just a cat" or "just a dog" too? Intolerance and compassion are both human traits. There's so many people out there that think "It's just a woman" or "It's just a mexican" and in their own mind that makes them superior... To me those types are worse than any rodents

To clarify...I do NOT advocate cruelty to animals on any level, nor have I ever frozen any mouse to death. I agree, the most painless death, the better. My point was that people should not get up in arms about how to kill a mouse.

If people worried as much about how we treat each other as they do how we treat animals, the world would be a much nicer place.

We buy our mice frozen...I just think of it like buying hamburger meat in the supermarket..that cow was bred for food...i try not to think of how it was killed...I never really thought of how my mice were killed... I am assuming they were gassed because the store buys them from a company... :shrugs:

I don't believe in letting any creature suffer uneccessarily. I recently read that rats have nearly the intelligence of a dog. Even the dumbest of creatures deserves compassion but animals as smart as rats deserve the most painless end possible.

I think most people in this thread said exactly what I was thinking.

And I feel anomosity towards anyone who feels nothing in the face of suffering. When is a creature "big enough" to show compassion to?

I hate PETA and animal rights organizatons but I do feel that as "the superior species", we have the responsibility to ACT superior.

starsevol said:

I hate PETA and animal rights organizatons but I do feel that as "the superior species", we have the responsibility to ACT superior.

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"superior" is a matter of perspective. What makes us superior? Is it because we have the ability to define the word "superior" in the first place? In some ways I can see it, such as "superior predator" maybe...we have nuclear weapons that can pretty much destroy any living thing on the planet, including ourselves.

AIDS, which stems from a microscopic virus, kills the vast majority of people that it infects. From the perspective of that virus, we are an inferior species because we have no defense against it. It all depends on who you ask.

:-offtopic
I never used to have a problem with PETA until a bunch of them ambushed me after a reptile show at the zoo this summer. That was interesting.... :laugh:

What I meant by superior, in this context, is the ability to show compassion.

The original poster seems to be of the opinion that since we humans are superior to mice, how we treat then should not matter.

My reaction is, if indeed we ARE superior, we should ACT superior.
That means respecting life, even if that life is dinner for our pets.

I'm not exactly pissed off, just disappointed..

First this..

For me, the easiest, most economically way to off a mouse is to freeze it.

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Then this..

I do NOT advocate cruelty to animals on any level, nor have I ever frozen any mouse to death

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I may be a tad confused, or blonde, or both...but that's either a contradiction in terms or a fib. Which is it? :shrugs:

Its people like you who don't feel for animals and generally don't care about their lives as mattering, even for a minute moment, that affect the rest of us. Its people like you that give PETA, the ASPCA, and the Humane Society ammunition for no one ever owning animals or eating animals.

To me a mouse is still a living creature, but I still kill them in traps when given the choice of a bag of my favorite Poptarts being nibbled and peed on or a dead mouse. Now, I have a mouse sized live trap that works quite well. I just trap them up and move them down to the woods or meadow down the road and release them. I also spent 2 weeks trying to catch a mole tearing up my yard and garden. Sneaky bugger he was. Then I stood there and made an out-loud promise that if he let me catch him, I wouldn't kill him and take him elsewhere. Not 5 mins later he moved and I caught him. I don't go back on my word, and he went down the road a half mile to the meadow and got released.

[sarcasm]And not to play the "how would you feel if in their place" card, because I'd never ever think to trump an idiot[/sarcasm]...but have you ever experienced frost-bite? It HURTS, and to be conscious to feel that is excrutiating. I would never put an animal through that alive and conscious for the entire thing.

I raise my own feeders for snakes and myself. I raise my own chickens for meat and eggs. I have raised meat rabbits in the past. I've field dressed deer, wild rabbits, fish, birds. I don't gain any sort of carnal enjoyment over the suffering of an animal. Its alive the same as you and I, it does feel pain. It really pangs me when I think about a deer taking a lung shot and then running and running until it just can't breathe anymore. Or watching my uncle filet fish that while having been out of the water a good while, flop around and still alive enough to feel pain and panic.

While I do agree to a certain extent of what you've said. I don't lose sleep over feeding my snakes live food either. It does 'bother' me on a human level, but when animals meet their end by my hands, the rules are vastly different. Asphyxiation or head-thumping is over a lot faster in a warm-blooded animal than in a cold-blooded one. Metabolism is just something you can't avoid.

Wild animals don't have guns or gas chambers technically speaking. Their rules are entirely different. I think THAT is what sets humans apart in our pursuit for meat and theirs. We have a choice.

All of my animals, whether feeders for snakes or my own dinner table meet their end in a way that *I* would like to meet my end. In a nearly painless instant. And thats the way that it should be. People have lost their respect for the animals that must perish for life to continue. And its things such as that that we have lost respect for one another as well. All animals that ultimately will end up on my dinner table, are apologized to before they are killed and then thanked once they are dead. I only feel its proper to have respect for those whose lives you take.

I agree that both these animals in reference are domesticated, however, each still has their root genetic coding to be "wild". I personally feed live pinkies to my snakes at the moment. When the time comes to feed larger mice, then I will most likely buy frozen or thump. Being that I have only 2 snakes at the moment, there is no need to buy 50-100 prekilled, frozen pinkies from any vendor.

Also, Carol stated that she read serial killers enact violent acts on animals prior to starting on humans. Yes, that is true, however, unless we went from sending mice into our snakes den, to humans into a lions den, then that is a mute point. No one here, I hope, is sitting here chopping off parts of mice, while they're alive, and video taping and "killing kittens" (don't want to use the grown up word).

Anyway, I work in a profession where I have become jaded to gruesome sights or smells, so feeding a poor innocent pinky to my hungry snakes just doesn't seem all that wrong.

I also agree that if you have the methods to humanely kill an innocent animal, and you're feeding in quantity that you should do that when that option is available to you.

But it does all boil down to the fact that we are feeding one "semi" domesticated animal to another.

Blue

I am in agreement with the prevailing point of view on this topic. But, I wanted to add an aside. I don't know why, it is just a spiritual and philosophical conundrum. Cats are able to kill their prey relatively quickly. Dogs, on the other hand, are brutal in their method of bringing down large prey. As appealing and cute as the dog is, as much as we love their companionship, they are ruthless, savage, and sometimes sloppy killers. I love dogs. But, I would never want to be run down by a pack of them. They literally bring down prey by consuming it on the run.

Not sure what all the fuss is about :shrugs: I thump em on the head and feed em off. Do lizard keepers have feelings for crickets? Crickets aren't cute and fuzzy, but there really is no difference. JMO :wavey:

I have respect for all living things, but I can imagine what a rodent feels like after taking a nasty blow to the head.. Would the sleeper hold be much like what the snake does to the mouse or rat? If you been taken down in the sleeper hold you know your out fast and don't feel a thing.. Whats right and whats wrong???

Personally pre kill seems to be a realistic way to go, but in my area pre kill is 100 miles away most often. There are times when I feed only live from my own breeders because that seems to be the humane way to let them go. I try to have a good understanding of nature and try to come to realistic terms that I can live with when it comes to feeding. My feeder animals have no names, but whether they are pets or feeders they certainly recieve as much respectful dignity I can afford to them ( husbandtry and diet ).

I chose to respect my animals with care and dignity, I understand sometimes one must die for the other to live, and I put as much humanity into my animals as I do with humans.

Regards.

I have no choice

What do you do if your snake REFUSES anything motionless? I have tried frozen thawed and that always results in a refusal/regurge. Then I moved on to thumped live. She refuses again. They must be alive and very active. Sometimes I have to place the mouse on it's back so it will attract her. I am hoping she will grow out of this. I can't feed her live adult mice without pre-killing RIGHT? :shrugs:

Needless-to-say, I've been forced to get over my fear of ending poor little helpless cute and fuzzy pinkies. It breaks my heart, but my responsibility is to my snake.