Aspen as a substrate = dangerous??

[Hypancistrus]

There are TWO negatives I have seen with aspen. First is that some batches appear to be quite dusty, especially the last couple of quarts in the giant bags. I usually throw away the last 2-3" of the big bags because at that point it is mostly dust and small particles.

Second is that any particulate substrate can cause impaction risks when swallowed, if enough of it is swallowed. You can ELIMINATE this risk by feeding in a seperate container, and there are so many benefits to doing that, I see no earthly reason NOT to. That being said, I also truly believe that in the wild, snakes PROBABLY consume quite a bit of "non-food" materials while swallowing their food whole.

I doubt they can digest wood products because they lack the digestive system to do so. A sharp piece of wood that is swallowed may cause serious issues. Again, don't feed in the tank, on the aspen, and all's well.

As for this quasi-mystical ventral ingestion issue... someone who HAS spent "enough" time with their snake and seen them poo help me out. When they poo, it comes out as a semi-solid, correct?? And it is expelled with some force.... so then... anything that was "sticking" to the vent would be removed with the force of the feces being expelled, right? I am going to assume (again, PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, as I really DO want to understand where these people are coming from) that whatever small parts of the vent that appear do not linger very long after the poo has been ejected, right?

I HATE not understanding things... and I truly don't understand how these people can percieve this as such a huge risk when large scale breeders keep their snakes on aspen for years and years with no apparent problems. I mean, how many snakes does Rich have?? How many does Kathy have?? I know Susan has like 100 breeder adults, all on aspen. And yet when I got my hatchlings from her she TOLD me to keep them on aspen. She didn't say... "Ooooh, be careful there, a tiny fragment might work its way into their vent and cause a fatal infection."

That's it, tomorrow I am going to spend some more time with my snake and attempt to induce him to poo on me so I can see his cloacal eversion and judge this heinous risk for myself!!! :grin01:

 

[plasticknives]

Dang! I'm slow at typing again!

hahah!

I think you've got a good list there....

You could also include some ways to get around the "cons" Ie.

ingestion? = a feed box,
hidden poo?= full cleaning monthly (which they should be doing anyways) worried about that vent thing?= take your corn out to 'exercise' three days after eating (mine almost always goes on me or I hold her over her tub anyways, the movement gets her bowels going )

 

[plasticknives]

As for this quasi-mystical ventral ingestion issue... someone who HAS spent "enough" time with their snake and seen them poo help me out. When they poo, it comes out as a semi-solid, correct?? And it is expelled with some force.... so then... anything that was "sticking" to the vent would be removed with the force of the feces being expelled, right? I am going to assume (again, PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, as I really DO want to understand where these people are coming from) that whatever small parts of the vent that appear do not linger very long after the poo has been ejected, right?

from what i've seen,

they lift up their tail anyways, so i can't see stuff getting stuck- its not even touching,

mine always... expels with some force, so I can't see anything going in with everything else coming out

and i have never seen the vent appear, so if it does, its only for a split second.

 

[DogStar5988]

I don't understand what people are thinking. Snakes live in the wild they live on DIRT, grass, sand, etc. I think it would be far more likely for dirt or sand to get stuck to a snakes bum than aspen. Plus aspen shavings are not really that small, so I can't see them getting sucked up a snake like a vacuum. Just because corn snakes may not dig massive tunnels doesn't mean they don't burrow to an extent, I don't know if you have ever seen a snake trying to get away when its in thick grass or leaf litter but they pretty much make tunnels through it. But this is just my opinion .


---Kenny

 

[DeadMouse]

Having read this entire thread, I've actually found it quite funny and yet quite sad. It's no less akin to arguing religion or politics really.

The fact is, there are many viable options to keeping a snake in captivity and quite a few good arguments against any of those options as well.

The bottom line is, no matter what we choose to put our snakes in, it will never recreate the natural and diverse environment the snake lives in. Sure, you can create an environment that might be potentially less harmful, but is that environment going to be natural? And you can apply every argument against a captive substrate and that argument's point against would be found occurring in naturally in the wild. So why even argue? It's a moot point!

My point is, we all want the best for our animals and thus, we strive to give them an environment that offers what we think is in the best interest of our pet <B>and</B> ourselves. So why argue if one person uses X and has healthy viable animal while you use Y and have the same results? Are we really that egocentric in thinking that what works for us is the only solution?

I guess the only "real" solution is that we all keep an open mind and remember that there is more than one way of doing something. If someone offers their ideas or experiences, don't shun them or ridicule them because they might be vastly different than yours. In fact, those "weird" ideas/experiences might actually offer a viable alternative or give a new perspective. Don't be afraid if that means you might have to rethink your hard stance of what you strongly believed for years, sometimes change is a good thing!

And remember, we are not gods, we are keepers of animals, animals we <U>choose</U> to keep for personal reasons, whether it's emotional, financial, or otherwise. It is in our best interest to give them the best that we can and nobody can argue against someone's best intentions, we can only offer our advice with kind words

 

[waldo]

Wow, looks like I missed all the fun :cheers:

I gave up posting on the other forum after I was called ignorant and irresponsible for using aspen :shrugs:

This wasn't a attempt to convince other people to switch to aspen but instead a simple question as to why be so totally one sided about substrate. I personally don't care if someone wants to use carpet, paper, etc..., I don't agree with it but I won't put some one down for using it.
When a newbie asks for substrate advice I recommend aspen but also tell them about other options.

At this point I have lost all respect for these two fellows, not because they don't use aspen but because of the way they have treated myself and others who questioned them. Resorting to name calling, belittling and ridiculous comparisons to try and prove their point did nothing but hurt their argument and show their true colors.

 

[plasticknives]

Having read this entire thread, I've actually found it quite funny and yet quite sad. It's no less akin to arguing religion or politics really.

The fact is, there are many viable options to keeping a snake in captivity and quite a few good arguments against any of those options as well.

The bottom line is, no matter what we choose to put our snakes in, it will never recreate the natural and diverse environment the snake lives in. Sure, you can create an environment that might be potentially less harmful, but is that environment going to be natural? And you can apply every argument against a captive substrate and that argument's point against would be found occurring in naturally in the wild. So why even argue? It's a moot point!

My point is, we all want the best for our animals and thus, we strive to give them an environment that offers what we think is in the best interest of our pet <B>and</B> ourselves. So why argue if one person uses X and has healthy viable animal while you use Y and have the same results? Are we really that egocentric in thinking that what works for us is the only solution?

I guess the only "real" solution is that we all keep an open mind and remember that there is more than one way of doing something. If someone offers their ideas or experiences, don't shun them or ridicule them because they might be vastly different than yours. In fact, those "weird" ideas/experiences might actually offer a viable alternative or give a new perspective. Don't be afraid if that means you might have to rethink your hard stance of what you strongly believed for years, sometimes change is a good thing!

And remember, we are not gods, we are keepers of animals, animals we <U>choose</U> to keep for personal reasons, whether it's emotional, financial, or otherwise. It is in our best interest to give them the best that we can and nobody can argue against someone's best intentions, we can only offer our advice with kind words

I wasn't really trying to argue against repti-carpet or linoleum... if people use it and like it, then all the more power to them. If you're happy and your snake is healthy, then hey, its all good.

I was just arguing FOR aspen- I did my research and I can't understand why they would be so against the use of it.

 

[Jrgh17]

I wasn't really trying to argue against repti-carpet or linoleum... if people use it and like it, then all the more power to them. If you're happy and your snake is healthy, then hey, its all good.

I was just arguing FOR aspen- I did my research and I can't understand why they would be so against the use of it.

Agreed. We're all trying to dispel the belief that we only use aspen because it's cheap, and that we're ignoring a devastating health risk to our snakes.

 

[DeadMouse]

I wasn't really trying to argue against repti-carpet or linoleum... if people use it and like it, then all the more power to them. If you're happy and your snake is healthy, then hey, its all good.

I was just arguing FOR aspen- I did my research and I can't understand why they would be so against the use of it.

I think your reply towards me is a little misdirected :shrugs:

I wasn't implying what I said to anybody in particular, especially to anybody that uses any particular substrate over another, but to everybody regardless of what they believe in or use. I'm merely trying to point out that there's a lot of different beliefs on what is proper or healthier and that just because some people might believe in one system that works, it doesn't necessarily invalidate the other systems out there that are working as well :argue:

I hope nobody takes anything I said personally as that was not the intention of what I tried to say

 

[DeadMouse]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you use something and it works for you, why bother trying to argue the point, especially with people that already have their minds up anyways? If someone says something that you know to be erroneous or misdirected, state your case and move on. That's why I said that topics like that can be like arguing religion and politics

 

[plasticknives]

I think your reply towards me is a little misdirected :shrugs:

I wasn't implying what I said to anybody in particular, especially to anybody that uses any particular substrate over another, but to everybody regardless of what they believe in or use. I'm merely trying to point out that there's a lot of different beliefs on what is proper or healthier and that just because some people might believe in one system that works, it doesn't necessarily invalidate the other systems out there that are working as well :argue:

I hope nobody takes anything I said personally as that was not the intention of what I tried to say

no, no... I didn't think for a second that was directed at me....! I was just trying to clear up my motives! You brought up a good point and I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't arguing against having a lot of choice in substrate, just that I personally thought aspen was just as good.
I actually am planning to use half repti-carpet and half aspen when i finally make my custom cage, just to change it up a little.

I hope my tone wasn't misread or anything.... !

 

[Hypancistrus]

I think what offended me is that I truly wanted to hear their side and learn why they believed what they did and if there was truth to it. But instead of providing me with concrete data, they just said "I can't believe you actually USE aspen!" and implied that I am a bad pet owner because of that. Then when I said that I had researched to come to my conclusion they resorted to thinly veiled insults. And that's just uncool.

You're ultimately right though... there's many ways to skin a cat, and no ones way is necessarily better or worse than others, for the most part. But we should be willing to share information we have and admit to areas we lack, don't you think?? :shrugs:

 

[plasticknives]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you use something and it works for you, why bother trying to argue the point, especially with people that already have their minds up anyways? If someone says something that you know to be erroneous or misdirected, state your case and move on. That's why I said that topics like that can be like arguing religion and politics

Very true.
I just think that it was unfair for those specific people to imply that he thread starter was a less-then-adequate snake keeper for his choice of substrate. Plus I just like to debate.

 

[Jrgh17]

I agree that people will use whatever they want to use. But I disagree in that I believe some substrates *are* better than others. Now, that's just my personal opinion, but I am also able to support that opinion with facts. If there's a valid reason going against this, I would sincerely like to hear it.

I think that people are willing to stick with a discussion to different lengths. Some people can't even deal with the idea that someone disagrees with them, while others love debates and do it for fun/their job. It's the same as what substrate you use: it's a personal choice how much you are willing to discuss a topic.

 

[tyflier]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you use something and it works for you, why bother trying to argue the point, especially with people that already have their minds up anyways? If someone says something that you know to be erroneous or misdirected, state your case and move on. That's why I said that topics like that can be like arguing religion and politics

I think the point of this topic, at least as far as concerns my partici;pation in it, is not to argue for or against one substrate over another, but rather to dispel rumours and false information regarding one substrate vs. another. The forum that this topic refers to, and I have not been to it, so I don't know for sure, seems to be antagonistic in it's approach to reptile husbandry. This is never a good thing for beginners. God forbid they find THAT forum before this one. As a beginner, they may very well m,ake bad choices based on information they are getting there.

As far as the actual "argument" goes...has anyone asked them to provide even ONE example of a documented case in which an infection, injury, or death was definitively ruled to be caused by particulate substrate being "sucked in" to the vent after defecation? Does any such documentation exist? They are insisting that "evidence" for the safety of aspen be provided, I say, provide evidence to the contrary. And by evidence, I certainly do NOT mean an opinion...I mean a documented case where the cause of injury or infection was definitively ruled to be from using aspen as a substrate.

As I said in an earlier post, I watch my snakes poo all the time. Judge me because of that however you see fit . But there is absolutely NOTHING about the action of defecating that would lead me to be concerned for the health and well-being of my snakes should they decide to defecate on their aspen.

Someone mentioned that the snake can't choose to escape the substrate of OUR choice, and I say that is only true if you are preventing them from burrowing, and don't provide a variety of "furniture". My snakes burrow, and can often be found laying on glass, rather than aspen. They also climb their tree limbs, rest on top of their rock and coconut shell hides, crawl along the upper rims of the tanks, and regularly change the "substrate" that they happen be on quite frequently...much like they would, I assume, in a forest in Georgia. Dirt is dirt, and in the wild, the only way for a snake to change it's "substrate" is to move to a more suitable location. My snakes have a variety of "micro-habitats" inside their enclosures. They are not always on the aspen, and they can often be found crawling along one of several different surfaces that are inside their enclosures.

I seriously doubt the validity of the claim that aspen substrate can be sucked in cloacally after defecation. I mean, my snake would have to have one very loose vent for a piece of aspen to be pulled inside of it after pooping. I have NEVER seen a gaping hole of a vent. I have never seen such a tremendous amount of cloacal inversion to cause worry. At the very most, I would think that small dust particles MIGHT POSSIBLY get stuck to the area around the vent. But I imagine that very act of the cloaca pulling back inside the snake would cause any attached substrate to be dislodged.

Someone made a claim of licking your finger and then touching your aspen for an idea of how it happens. I say, put a rubberband around your finger, than lick it and get a piece of aspen stuck to it. Now pull your finger through the rubberband and watch the aspen fall off as the elastic is pulled off the tip of your finger. As the vent closes, anything stuck to the tissue will be dislodged by the muscles and the flesh around the opening. We're not talking about the opening to a paper bag. We are talking about a "closed tube", that does not provide easy transferrance of material. There are a large number of muscles working to expel waste amterial. Those same muscles CLOSE the interior of the vent once defecation is complete. Anything stuck to any everted tissue would be dislodged before the tissue is pulled bakc into the vent.

 

[Jrgh17]

As far as the actual "argument" goes...has anyone asked them to provide even ONE example of a documented case in which an infection, injury, or death was definitively ruled to be caused by particulate substrate being "sucked in" to the vent after defecation? Does any such documentation exist? They are insisting that "evidence" for the safety of aspen be provided, I say, provide evidence to the contrary. And by evidence, I certainly do NOT mean an opinion...I mean a documented case where the cause of injury or infection was definitively ruled to be from using aspen as a substrate.

Yeah, they were asked multiple times to provide that evidence. The reply that was given was essentially "well, I know for a fact that it's happened, but I can't get the money to fund that kind of experiment."

 

[DeadMouse]

Very true.
I just think that it was unfair for those specific people to imply that he thread starter was a less-then-adequate snake keeper for his choice of substrate. Plus I just like to debate.

I too like healthy debates. Unfortunately, there's a lot of people that think an argument equates to fighting and that if you disagree with them, then you are attacking them personally/mentallly. :shrugs:

But I agree, it is unfair to attack someone or imply things that are not necessarily true just because your viewpoints differ. I'd hate to think what those same people think of me for using rabbit pellets

 

[Joejr14]

Few points....

Most big breeders do not use aspen. I know that Rich uses newspaper.

When snakes take a crap, they lift their tail off the ground---bring their cloaca with them. It's closed before they come back into contact with the ground. They don't open it up and crawl along the ground with it wide open.

And finally, what is this website? I obviously need to pay them a visit.

 

[Susan]

And finally, what is this website? I obviously need to pay them a visit.

Wonderful! The heavy artillary has arrived! Go get 'em Joe! And please, what is that website as I want to watch!

 

[Lennycorn]

I have to bump this 'cause it will be fun.
Website please!!