Breeding Kingsnake x Guttata

[hartsock]

speaking of the creamsicles....in feb, I bought a "proven" pair from a guy at the Hamburg show. They seem awful small and I am going to weigh them once I find my scale from moving to see if they are at breeding weight. But one of them the female has always had more orange to her, but she is now "oranging up" through the white, the male still is a white white except for the dorsals. I saw in nanci's post that there are creamsicles and frosted creamsicles...is that the frosted, the ones with more white?

 

[Jay@PJCReptiles]

Sorry, but I gotta side with the OP on this one. The response to the "why" question wasn't rude at all. It was simple and honest. And judging by the response to the reaction, I would say the "why" question wasn't just a simple question. Hartsock clearly appears to be anti-hybrid and I definitely got that from the way he asked why in the first place.

Unfortunately, I don't have any help to actually add, just wanted to show some support as I think this is already taking a completely uncalled for bad turn.

Hartsock immediately replied to his post telling him that if he/she had just put the word "why" the post would not have been long enough for him/her to post. When he/she put UUUUMMMMMM in front of it I did not take that as confrotational or condesending at all. I took it as him/her asking a question the same as Double Het did. Double Het automatically took it as such and by his response I personally found it rude. I would never reply to anyone on this forum in that manner. His response came off as "Who the hell are you?" in my book. He jumped to the conclusion that Hartsock was going to be negative about his hybrid question and immediately got defensive without asking further questions as to why Hartsock posted in the manner that he/she did. Then, inturn, you reacted the same way Duff by automatically assuming that Hartsock "clearly appears to be anti-hybrid". I don't understand how you can make such an assumption by Hartsock asking a simple question. I feel it is some what hypocritical of you to condemn Hartsock, so to speak, and then turn around and do what you thought Hartsock was doing in the first place. You assumed Hartsock was passing judgement when he/she wasnt't and then turned around and did it yourself. I replied to Double Het's post in a manner so he would understand that he doesn't have to come off as confrontational. If he is going to get upset everytime someone asks him a question I was letting him know that he probably wouldn't be getting many replies. I did try to help with his question by linking him to Vinman's post so he might be able to get more information. I knew Vinman was working with these and thought he might get the Information he was seeking by asking Vinman. So, if I was/am wrong please let me know so that way I will never post a reply on this forum again except for the occasional "Hey, Nice Snake". I thought I was trying to help but according to you I am not.

Just for the record Double Het, I never assumed that you are a newbie just because you are a new member here. I was trying to help you so you could get the most out of your inquiry. There was no need in getting so sensitive and defensive. How should have Hartsock replied to your post so you would have known that he/she was sincere about his/her question? I feel any question pertaining to "why do you want to do that" would have received the same response you gave in the first place.

The Ummmm.... part turned me off. As in, Ummmm.... why the hell you want that? I've had my share of "NOOOO! Your an idiot if you do that" thrown at me by people who at utterly convinced their right and you are wrong by default. Usually by people just beginning with snakes and are little more then bookwise but quite happy to start dictating you anyway. And yes, usually by people i don't even now. I won't have any of that anymore. Any arguments are cut short.

You assumed that someone else was making an assumption of you. I understand that you might have had some bad responses in the past from other people but I feel jumping the gun with Hartsock's reply was a little unfair to him/her.
Jay :shrugs:

 

[hartsock]

Well thanks for the defense, Jay, but everything is done and over now I guess (drat the lack of an edit button, lol). I have said my peace and that's that as far as I am concerned. If Double continues to post in that way, then is what he'll be known for, but I don't think he will. We all have things that push our buttons and I guess we all have bad days. If it bothered me I would stick to my guns and pretty much fight it out till I got a warning or suspension (voice of experience, lol, not at this site though); I just didn't want to be known as something I am not from miscommunication. So all is good here !

by the way I am a he,lol, sometimes consider a he/it, but definetly not a she!

 

[Double het]

well, I didn't assume you were a newby, just didn't realize why you came off like that in the post. I realize now the ummmm... seemed like I had an attitude and I honestly didn't mean it that way. You thought I was attacking so you retaliated and I did back as well. As far as the snake getting eaten, I was just being a smart aleck. And as far as the colors and traits, I did want to know...I mean if you were thinking of doing that then you must have heard or suspected that it would give you some cool offspring right? Hence the question "why?" Which you more or less answered in this post. I do apologize that my first post came across rude, but if I had to do it over again, I would still ask you why --- just maybe in a different way.

It's oke. Already forgotten the whole thing

Anyway, I am not here to argue with you. As far as your hybrids, I hope they turn out nicely for you. And really the only problem that I really have with any breeding program is that if the breeder knows that there are birth defect traits that are going to show up in the snakes because of the pairings of the parents, yet they still go ahead and do it because they want the one or two that will turn out okay...that is when I have a problem.

I'd never do that. I have a male corn here that should be able to father some really nice babies. However he seems to have wierd lumps developing near his tail. Even specialised reptile vets couldn't tell me what it was. Poor thing will never be a dad.

As far as i know (Which i admit isn't much right now) i never heard of health problems of hybrids. Other then offspring beeing sterile. I want to know more about this before i make any attempt.

 

[Double het]

Albino Cal king x Florida king = Lemon King
Thayeri x Greeri = Basic Carpet king
Thayeri x Nelson's Milk = Clown King
Thayeri x Albino Nelsons Milk = Het Candy coloured Clown
Thayeri x Ruthven's King = Pastel King
Pueblan Milk x Banana Cal King = Imperial Pueblan
Pueblan Milk x Honduran Milk = Camduran
Honduran Milk x Albino Cal King x Florida King = Jurassic Milk
Pearl Corn x Albino Cal King x Goini King = Titian King
Desert King x Corn snake x Albino Cal King = Splendida Jungle Corn
Ruthven's King x Corn snake = Tri Colour Jungle Corn
Corn snake x cal king = Jungle Corn
Corn snake x Imperial Pueblan = Imperial pueblacorn
Corn snake x Pueblan Milk = Pueblacorn
Corn snake x Leucistic Texas Ratsnake = Pearl Corn
Corn snake x Sinaloan Milks = Sinacorn
Corn snake x Honduran Milk = Cornduran
Corn snake x Gophersnake = Turbocorns
holbrooki x corn = Axminster Corn
Albino Black Ratsnake x Albino Everglades Ratsnake = bubblegum Ratsnake
Emorys Ratsnake x Corn snake = Creamsicle Corn
Pantherophis guttatus X Obsoleta spiloides = Creamsicle Corn (Frosted)

Wow that's really usefull! Thanks

I currently have young of a Creamsicle x Emory. I didn't see that as an issue as i knew that Creamsicle has Emory in it anyway. The young look very much like Normal corns. Naturally there sold under hybrid. They don't even resemble their mother. What are those then? I can post some pics of them.

 

[Duff]

His response came off as "Who the hell are you?" in my book.

And the initial "ummmmmm... why" came across as rude and condescending in my book. So only you are allowed to read between the lines?

He jumped to the conclusion that Hartsock was going to be negative about his hybrid question and immediately got defensive without asking further questions as to why Hartsock posted in the manner that he/she did. Then, inturn, you reacted the same way Duff by automatically assuming that Hartsock "clearly appears to be anti-hybrid". I don't understand how you can make such an assumption by Hartsock asking a simple question. I feel it is some what hypocritical of you to condemn Hartsock, so to speak, and then turn around and do what you thought Hartsock was doing in the first place. You assumed Hartsock was passing judgement when he/she wasnt't and then turned around and did it yourself.

No, I based my assumption on the follow-up response as well, which was very clearly anti-hybrid. And you made assumptions as well, so who's being hypocritical here?

I replied to Double Het's post in a manner so he would understand that he doesn't have to come off as confrontational. If he is going to get upset everytime someone asks him a question I was letting him know that he probably wouldn't be getting many replies.

And in my opinion, Double Het's first response wasn't rude. It was an appropriate response to being questioned in a such a way that even the poster of said question admitted might have been better worded to avoid the confusion that followed.

So, if I was/am wrong please let me know so that way I will never post a reply on this forum again except for the occasional "Hey, Nice Snake". I thought I was trying to help but according to you I am not.

I think you're seriously over-reacting just a bit. I didn't say one word to you, just stated the way I read it. But if you have something against me, no skin off my back.

 

[hartsock]

Guys why dont' we just let it all go and there is some very useful info between the bickering in here (my bickering as well).

 

[holly tayls]

Thats what I am really drooling over (stupid as it sounds for this snake) a Rootbeer
It there isnt a rootbeer in Cleveland on the 28th then Ill end up with a carmel

 

[tyflier]

FWIW...I thought hartsock's original response was "off-key" as well. And his reaction to double het AFTER that was also "off-key", IMO...but it didn't involve me, so I left it alone.

As for double het's original reply to hartsok's first response...it is completely understandable, IMO, given the amount of negative reactions that ALOT of people have towards hybrids(especially on this forum)...it is very reasonable, IMO, to "assume" that the question, "Ummmmm...why?" could have been intended in a negative manner. Of course, with hindsight, we all see that it was NOT intended in that manner. But then...hartsock did further the confusion with his next "anti-hybrid" response, which was, again, IMO, anti-hybrid.

The whole ordeal is fairly well behind us, I hope, and there's no reason for anyone to combat further about...as far as I can tell. I certainly hope that Duff and PJCReptiles can repair their ill feelings before it goes anywhere else...

anyhow...back to the subject at hand...

Blutengel-
Don Soderberg at South Mountain Reptiles sells creamsicles as guttata X emoryi and Frosted Creamsicles as guttata X obsoleta...

I have plans in the very near future for guttata X negritas and guttata X alterna. I plan to use a normal x MBK and an anery motley x alterna. I am also considering a normal x floridana, but I'll have to see about that one. The Florida king female I have may be too aggressive to put with a corn...

 

[hartsock]

just to repeat....as tyflier said with hindsight all is understandable, but I didn't intend the ummmm...to be anything other then space filler and was actually wanting to know why...I reacted with hostility because I had it thrown at me, but that was because my original statement could have been taken misleading. What I said then was in anger and I can't go back and change it but I am not anti-hybrid with the colubrids. You get to some balls who have genetic problems and I have a different story, but that doesn't need to be gone into here. I knew nothing about colubrid hybrids and wanted to learn and actually I find this thread fasinating. I don't want to be labeled as a trouble maker nor as someone who is against hybridization. After all I am sure it is perfectly natural for a corn to catch a ride on a log and float to South America where it could reproduce with something in the wild, after all he couldn't get across the boarder without a passport. (that was a complete joke, okay???)

One thing that Double het brought up in the original post which I would like to know more about is how do they gain interest in the other snake? Do they pretty much accept a mate even if they aren't the same? I didn't know if the pheremones would be the same or close enough to attract interest.

 

[Jay@PJCReptiles]

I certainly hope that Duff and PJCReptiles can repair their ill feelings before it goes anywhere else...

I have no ill feelings towards Duff whatsoever. Just because two people have a debate on a subject doesn't mean there is hate and hostility involved. We had a debate that did not include or imply any harmful or ill feelings towards one another. He is entitled to his opinion as I am mine. I guess when it comes to "this" matter at hand Duff and I will agree to disagree.
Jay
(This is the last I will post on this matter as it is starting to hijack Double Het's original post. This is not being fair to him.)

 

[starsevol]

I am anti-hybrid, but to each their own.
I am glad the ACR recognizes hybrids so their parentage can be traced. I might be the only person on the planet unimpressed with the snake pictured earlier, it just looks freaky and "wrong" to me. Sure, it's colorful but it's really just a really pretty mutt. The best thing it has going for it is that there can be no mistaking what it is. I really don't like those hybrids that look just like "real" species. The "cubic zirconia" of reptiles!

Of course, many people are "anti morph". I knew a zookeeper who only liked wild-types and locality stuff.

 

[Nanci]

Here's the one I was trying to find earlier. It's photo is named "pastel king," so it could be thayeri x ruthveni. Crazy. (I've gotta say I'm pretty much anti-hybrid, too. Like the thought of Labradoodles and Peke-a-poos pretty much makes me gag. But I can't resist Imperial Pueblans...

Nanci

 

[tyflier]

Glad the mess is cleared up....

Hartsock-

It is my understanding that in order to produce hybrids, both need to be "primed" with a like species mate, and then the different species introduced just before copulation begins. Obviously, this can be tricky...especially when one species would normally consider the other food, not mate. I plan to learn as much as possible over the next 2 years while my proposed hybrid pairings grow to adult proportions. In fact, one reason I have chosen the kings for my projects is based on their relative docility. Both my MBK and my alterna females *should* be at least a bit smaller than my male corns, which should at least lower the risks of getting them eaten. Of course...I am VERY excited to see the results of such pairings, as well...but docility and size are very important factors, to me.

I have never done this before, and I am guessing, as well as using "common sense" when considering how I will go about it. I do plan to e-mail Vinman, in the hopes that he will reveal some tips and "secrets" to me that I can put to use...

And FWIW, hartsock...I'm glad I didn't jump to conclusions against you. When I first read your response, I admit...I had the same reaction as double het. But it wasn't addressed to me, and I ignored it...and I am glad I did. :cheers:

 

[Vinman]

Forget about emailing vinman :nope: . Too much to write uke01: .

But you can call vinny at his home for all the tips you need. 718 792 2593

 

[Double het]

That would be a very expensive call for me :sobstory:

Any other change of talking? MSN or ICQ for example?

457190982

[email protected]

 

[toyah]

Vinman, have you managed to recover the melanistic MBK look in F2 corn x MBK crosses? Would love to hear more on them...

 

[Vinman]

Nop I didnot t6he animal was bought off of http://www.mesozoicreptiles.com/
you ca see the animal in my add or this thread it is on the first page of this thread

 

[tyflier]

Forget about emailing vinman :nope: . Too much to write uke01: .

But you can call vinny at his home for all the tips you need. 718 792 2593

I'll be callin' ya' Vin. I'm gonna need some of them tips. As I've said before, I really like the looks of some of the hybrids around, and wouldn't mind tryin' my hand at a few combinations...see what I can create...

 

[Vinman]

I'll be callin' ya' Vin. I'm gonna need some of them tips. As I've said before, I really like the looks of some of the hybrids around, and wouldn't mind tryin' my hand at a few combinations...see what I can create...

cool maybe we can work on a project together and trade babies in the future :cheers: