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BUF gene

Well I read the links! Thanks Kathy.
There honestly is no other argument left other then to say Chucks lying and/or Jan is, lol. The breedings shown there really do speak for themselves. I'm as likely to believe someone who's done that work as I am any other of you who have ever discovered a new gene. Which is to say, I believe it!
The only thing that's yet unproven is whether or not this new gene is an allele to caramel if I understood correctly (or that could be my memory, I read it all late last night).
As someone who jumped on and gave Jan (right name? slangenbroed?) a hard time, I also want to say congrats to him! I really did mean it when I said I hope you can prove it out, lol.
Anyone who doubts him, I would suggest you read the link Kathy can email you and then post what specifically you think was missed.
 
I se this became a hot item again ,the buff gene , since it was produced in Chuck's guide .
I had them for years , also the orange , but quit because of all the discussions .
Now , I'm back in it ,trying to breed it this season .
 
I really wonder what all of you who disagreed with Jan would have done to test what was discovered..
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post what specifically you think was missed.
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Is there a test breeding with a homo Caramel with no hets, documented on those links? That seems to be what's missed by those more clued up than me.

I'm European and chuffed as nuts that we can come up with new morphs over this side of the pond, and it does seem that this one apparently straightforward breeding test would put all of this discussion to bed, once and for all.

I feel that calling Chuck or Jan's integrity into question is harsh and unwarranted. There's no doubt that Jan has put an enormous investment of time and effort into Buf so far. Once the gene is passed to others, any attempted scam would become obvious in one or two generations and this would only have bad repercussions for him. Chuck has nothing to gain by bigging up something unsubstantiated, or worse, fabricated - in fact, he'd kill the Morph Guide stone dead if that ever happened.

I firmly believe that all involved are acting in good faith. I don't see how anything can be gained by fibbing, apart from a brief period of undeserved kudos followed by a massive loss of reputation and a lifetime of finger-pointing/recrimination that would completely negate any short-term financial profit.

Maybe there have been misunderstandings, misinterpretation of breeding results or that one key missing test. But I'm not seeing that anything has been deliberately misrepresented.
 
bitsy said:
I firmly believe that all involved are acting in good faith. I don't see how anything can be gained by fibbing, apart from a brief period of undeserved kudos followed by a massive loss of reputation and a lifetime of finger-pointing/recrimination that would completely negate any short-term financial profit.
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Well said! I look forward to reading the links provided by Kathy from CP over the weekend. I personally never thought anyone was being deceptive, just that (based on prior threads, not on new information which I've yet to read) more testing was needed.

Bitsy, I'm sure you speak for most of us. Thanks.
 
bitsy said:
Is there a test breeding with a homo Caramel with no hets, documented on those links? That seems to be what's missed by those more clued up than me.

I'm European and chuffed as nuts that we can come up with new morphs over this side of the pond, and it does seem that this one apparently straightforward breeding test would put all of this discussion to bed, once and for all.
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Who has a homo caramel with NO hets? Does that even exist? Can anyone who thinks they have such a thing bet their lives on it?

Wonder if there's any good reason I shouldn't quote some of the link here? I'll quote the bit that answered your question but still recommend going to read it all. Each of the questions that I've ever read about buf/orange is answered there pretty concisely and specifically. This is the last thing I'll type on it as I'm not trying to argue for anyone else. They've said it better than I can already.

"Buf needs to be crossed to a caramel in order to conclude testing.
Status: False.
Reason: A simple punnett square shows that Buf x caramel (or butter, etc) will produce exactly the same prediction regardless of whether it is assumed to be an allele to caramel or not an allele to caramel. Buf X caramel will not produce data that wasn't already produced by buf x butter and buf x golddust."

Darn the punnet square didn't post. Go check it out if you're curious to see it.
 
In case anyone doesn't have the link (and if Kathy's not online) I also have it now and would be happy to send it to you as well..
 
"Buf needs to be crossed to a caramel in order to conclude testing.
Status: False.
Reason: A simple punnett square shows that Buf x caramel (or butter, etc) will produce exactly the same prediction regardless of whether it is assumed to be an allele to caramel or not an allele to caramel. Buf X caramel will not produce data that wasn't already produced by buf x butter and buf x golddust."
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But would it would do, is to calm the discussion and damp down some of the more acrimonious aspects.

And what if that breeding doesn't throw up the expected punnett square results? Nobody will know unless it's done. Is the above "False" actually based on assumptions that the homo Caramel breeding will behave as we expect? Isn't the whole point of the test to see whether it does or not? Might it not potentially be even more exciting?
 
bitsy said:
And what if that breeding doesn't throw up the expected punnett square results? Nobody will know unless it's done. Is the above "False" actually based on assumptions that the homo Caramel breeding will behave as we expect?
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I just posted the tiniest bit of the argument. I wish there weren't any hard feelings that make them not want to post here (apologies if I'm wrong in that assumption as well) but it is where it is if you'd like to read what that's based on..
 
Snakexperience said:
Anyway, this thread has become exactly the reason why i dont come here anymore, it's all about status and wether you like or dislike people, really pathetic and so not how things should work in our hobby.

I will probably get a lot of criticism, but frankly i dont give a .
Things are what they are, even if it's determined or revealed by people that are not popular among the masses.

Arjan
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Cool of you to stop by just to take a jab at this site. Here, let me help you with your resolve not to come back here....
 
I just posted the tiniest bit of the argument. I wish there weren't any hard feelings that make them not want to post here (apologies if I'm wrong in that assumption as well) but it is where it is if you'd like to read what that's based on..
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To be honest, I doubt I'd understand 5% of the detailed information in the links, so I very much appreciate you posting what you have - I probably would have panicked and given up long before reaching it!

It's just that I've been having academic research methods rammed into me for the last year and a half at uni. One of the core principles is that an untested scientific theory, is an assumption. It can only be proven/disproven if it's tested.

But there ya go - I'm no more of a science geek than I am a morph expert!
 
bitsy said:
To be honest, I doubt I'd understand 5% of the detailed information in the links, so I very much appreciate you posting what you have - I probably would have panicked and given up long before reaching it!

It's just that I've been having academic research methods rammed into me for the last year and a half at uni. One of the core principles is that an untested scientific theory, is an assumption. It can only be proven/disproven if it's tested.

But there ya go - I'm no more of a science geek than I am a morph expert!
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The link we're talking about is basically simpler to follow than this thread, lol. And much much much shorter. I bet you'd have no trouble with it if you followed the bit I quoted earlier.
As for assumptions, I'm sure you'd be satisfied if you read it. It's based on breeding trials, and so they aren't any different than the assumptions we take for granted in this hobby with every other breeding.
In regards to caramel, there is no known het-less caramel, all we can narrow out is what it isn't het for. If you were trying to find out if this gene that looks like caramel is actually something new, and you have a butter to test with- Why not? It IS a caramel.
If you were testing a suspected blood would you use a fire if you had one? Sure why not? Of course we know about bloodred already and how it works so if you were discovering bloodred and you had the same two snakes you could only know what the breeding told you.
It would be like 'I bred this patternless snake to a normal and to an amel patternless and I got normals from the first and patternless snakes (het albino) from the second.' You don't know if the patternless morph needed to have amel in the mix or not to show up as the phenotype, but you do know that you have something new (if blood was new in this hypothetical). This situation is something like that. Not everything is known about this new morph, but it isn't acting like anything we have seen yet, so it's new.
Could be that it's an allele to caramel (not ruled out) but it isn't caramel per se, because it is dominant or codominant.
I'm not the most experienced and I'm not trying to be the end all be all in this, in fact I'm promoting the link so much because I'm curious whether the smarter breeders are reading it as I am, or if there is still doubt among those who've read it. I'd like to read that too, lol.
 
I have been trying to make sense of this discussion for an hour or so. I read the links that Kathy provided and found them to be very enlightening. Also very persuasive.

I makes me sad to see people who I respect make arguments not based on facts or information at hand, but based on their like or dislike of a particular person. I would like to think we are here to share information. I love political and religious debates but those emotions have no place here.
 
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Well said Wade.

The O/P was fair and interesting, It's also a good thing to question evidence for something new, because ultimately what establishes its credibility, is its ability to answer those questions.

There's no need to get personal. We're all trying to achieve the same things and a new morph is one of the most exciting things in this small corner of the world.
 
I don't like to see a person who I like and respect getting banned over this that's for sure. Over the years Arjan has contributed some great photos and posts to this site and I think outright banning was a bit harsh.
There's two things going on here, the actual morph discussion and the lingering bad feelings people have over stuff that should be water under the bridge by now. Is it really THAT hard to bury the hatchet?
As for Buf, I read the link, it kinda does make sense, at the same time if I was in Slang's shoes I would probably just try to get a straight caramel to breed to since that's what everyone is demanding and that seems to be the only way to convince everybody.
 
ghosthousecorns said:
I don't like to see a person who I like and respect getting banned over this that's for sure. Over the years Arjan has contributed some great photos and posts to this site and I think outright banning was a bit harsh.
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totally agree with that......................:awcrap:
 
I haven't joined in this thread until now because I don't have a dog in this fight, but I always found the whole thing humorous. I even have a snake named Buf just so I can start "Pics of my Buf" threads... :D
I found it funny because no one could understand what Jan was saying, and he didn't understand what everyone here was asking, so both sides were frustrated. I never really got the whole argument since they were in Europe anyway, like that other gene that popped up in Germany, but it was fun telling anyone asking what morph they had, that it was a Buf... I think by the time they get over here, if they ever do, the whole thing will have been worked out. I think those who've been here for awhile have seen this time after time with every new morph because it's always something, line bred, hybrid, etc... Just look at the controversy over naming new morphs that we get every year...
 
ghosthousecorns said:
I don't like to see a person who I like and respect getting banned over this that's for sure. Over the years Arjan has contributed some great photos and posts to this site and I think outright banning was a bit harsh.
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I'm sure you read his statements in this thread. That sort of bitch slapping of this site and the membership was acceptable to you?

I'm sorry if some feel that my getting irritated at someone who thinks they can walk in my front door, squat in the living room and take a dump in the middle of the floor is harsh. Sorry, but I am not inclined to extend them the privilege to continue to do that here.
 
ok, lets summarize this.

don't say anything against anyone of this forum. critism is theoretical allowed, but not practical. If someone voices public critism he will be banned.

sorry, but this seems to be normal when I read your statements.
I know Arjan pretty good and I know that he's a VERY GOOD guy, when he voices critism he has his reasons to do this. I really wonder why you handle this the easy way instead of looking for the dialog....and I know I'm not the only one who's thinking this!

my 2 cents
 
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