Can you beat the 3yr turn over? Well...

[chad27]

Not Trying to compare apples and oranges. But what age do They breed in the wild? Also is it so that ifthe female snake is not ready she will Not breed?

 

[Asbit]

In the wild the female if not ready, has a place she can go to get away from the males, with us they are put in a small confined space where they can not get away from the male and basically have no option as the male is generally the aggressor, or at least that is how I understand it.

As well in the wild, if they do breed to early, has anyone tagged and tracked them to see the clutch size, morbidity rate of the female involved, the fertility rate of the eggs, the viability of the eggs and the morbidity and genetic viability of the hatchlings?

Here in captivity, most of use keep them as pets and/or breeders. We want to keep our animals as long as possible, with as few problems as possible, with as little vet expense as possible and would like as high a success rate with breeding as possible. We control the vast majority of those parameters so why take unnecessary risks?

 

[toyah]

I've bred females at two years old and had no problems. I've bred females at three years old (and older) and had retained eggs, infertile eggs, etc. And vice versa. I've also had two year old females who I haven't bred from, who decided they were mature enough and so produced a clutch of slugs instead. Personally - if I have a two year old of good size producing follicles, I put a male in with her, as then at least I have a chance of eggs rather than slugs (in my experience there are more problems when a snake tries to lay a clutch of slugs than a clutch of fertile eggs).

Don Soderberg says it better than I can:

Your poll question implies that something is wrong with breeding sub two-year old corns. Viewers should be aware that age has very little to do with sexual maturity in snakes. Likewise, youth is no indication that there will be problems in corn snake breedings, but corns that are TOO SMALL to breed can be a big problem. Generally speaking, all nine-month old collies are the same size. Corn snakes (like most other serpent species) are not mature by age alone, and therefore can be between 14 and 48 inches by their second birthday. Granted some males over 30" long will not readily breed, indicating that both size AND age can play a role in sexual maturity, but conversely, I have seen four and five-year old female corns whose health was in potential danger if they were gravid.

I think it is wrong to equate maturity with age, unless you make a comment about the role SIZE plays in breeding criteria. EACH time you post about maturity, you should make some statement regarding size Vs age. Otherwise, you send an incorrect message to some of the less-seasoned corn keepers reading this forum. Since corns can safely reach a length of 36 " in ONE year, I think you would facilitate education about breeding corns better if you didn't solely cite age as a pre-requisite to maturity. Sorry to say that three different ways, but I want it to soak in.

It's fine to have an educated opinion about something this important, but I believe it's prudent to include information regarding opposing data. I do not judge you for saying it is your opinion that it's wrong to breed young corns, but I must point out to readers of this forum that age is not THE pre-requisite to safe corn snake breeding.

My general goal for breeding female corns is to do so when they are over 36" long (if heavy and healthy enough). This year, I have two female corns from 2007 that are gravid. Both are over 36" long and I have NO reservations about doing this. Some corns at 40" are not safe to breed. Approximately 60% of my females are ready to breed before their second birthdays. Virtually all of the other 40% are bred before their third b'days, BUT not all of them. Sometimes, four years of maturity is necessary. As it is with everything, no two corns are alike, so I caution everyone to consider size when determining the sexual "maturity", and NOT age.

 

[chad27]

Was just wondering. Though them females can be tuff to LOL

 

[medusacoils]

Not Trying to compare apples and oranges. But what age do They breed in the wild? Also is it so that ifthe female snake is not ready she will Not breed?

Sometimes its not what they would do in the wild. I'm suspecting, because I do not know, that the mortality rate of a gravid female is a lot higher in the wild, then in captivity. That's just an uneducated opinion.

And you are comparing apples and oranges. The snakes in our keep are not wild. They are very far from wild.They are probably housed in tanks, fed domesticated rodents, supplied with an artificial heat sources, drinks clean filtered watered, protected from the elements and is exposed to constant human contact. How is that wild?

We as keepers have an ethical responsibility to our animals. To make sure they are safe, fed and taken care of. As breeders, we are also held to a higher standard. Part of that is to not exploit them for our own personal gain. Breeding an animal that is not physiologically ready is an ethical tragedy. The costs can far outweigh the gains.

If you truly care for the animals in your keep, them work with them responsibly! I have been told that the rules of three is a guideline, not a standard. :shrugs: It's up to you to make the best decision regarding your animals as you can. Keeping safety in mind.

Wayne

 

[Jim Godfrey]

Perhaps we should not compare snakes, or reptiles, to mammals. Especially domestic animals. Wolves will not breed at six months. In fact, only the dominant female wolf of the pack will breed unless there is a need for the pack to grow quickly. In the wild a snake will breed when it is sexually mature and has the opportunity to do so. Sexually maturity in snakes occurs based on size more so than age. At least that's what we have been taught. If there is an abundance of food the snakes will undoubtedly grow at a faster rate and therefore breed at an earlier age. Food supply decreases, breeding slows. This is how balance occurs in nature. We are not duplicating nature in our captive breeding practices, however. In the wild survival of the fittest is the law. The question is do snakes that breed at a small size or young age in the wild break this "law" and by doing so remove themselves from the natural selection process that determines who sends their genetics down the road and who drops out of the loop? I'm certainly not the one to answer this. Perhaps Jeff Mohr will chime in. I refer back to the w/c corn I know of that laid twelve good eggs and had no problems. Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that a female snake that has been power fed and bred at two years of age comes from too much food too fast and not enough exercise. Obesity can cause problems when breeding a snake of any age. I do think that breeders should be responsible in every way with their practices. I will not breed two snakes if I feel it will compromise their health. I have a Kastanie that I would love to breed to my lava male this year, but she is just not big enough at two. I'll have to wait until next year. It comes down to doing the right thing, but I don't feel we can say that NO corns can safely breed at two years of age.

 

[chad27]

Thanks for this useful info Jim.

 

[stephen]

Hmmm

I disagree,consnakes can be bred in two years as long as the breeder knows what he is doing.I have in the past,but I dont anymore, any of the snakes I bred were totally fit and of weight.The only problem I found was some of the males werent always ready.As far as getting the females ready included plenty of execise and alot of food.Although, I wait at least 3 years now, sometimes 4 ,because of the way the economy is and I am far enough along to be first in producing my projects.Its always a good feeling seeing the first of a new morph hatch out....
I am sure in the wild, its the same way as far as age,depending on what and how much food and exercise they get is the factor of when they breed. I dont go by what any books say,I do what works for me.....

 

[chad27]

Looking forward to seeing what u got brewing stephen.

 

[Tara80]

I've bred females at two years old and had no problems. I've bred females at three years old (and older) and had retained eggs, infertile eggs, etc. And vice versa. I've also had two year old females who I haven't bred from, who decided they were mature enough and so produced a clutch of slugs instead. Personally - if I have a two year old of good size producing follicles, I put a male in with her, as then at least I have a chance of eggs rather than slugs (in my experience there are more problems when a snake tries to lay a clutch of slugs than a clutch of fertile eggs).

Don Soderberg says it better than I can

Good post toyah, I've also discussed this in depth with Don and, as Jim Godfrey stated earlier, some females can easily be bred at the age of 2 depending on physiological condition. Don actually goes as far as saying 1.8 years.

I also wanted to add that it would be really neat to see any scientific studies or evidence on this, if it exists. It is difficult to say what might BE considered 'physiologically mature' for a female corn snake. I personally would really like to know. Especially since their growth rate can be so drastic depending on availability of food and/or feeding regime.

 

[Camby]

By your last post it seems that you are the one trying to pick a fight. You made a statement, you were corrected, have a nice day. Geez. :shrugs:Jay

I do not see that he was corrected, rather others disagreed with or had differing opinions. That doesn't make his opinion incorrect no matter the lack of experience. There are NUMEROUS posts on this forum where people advise results of good clutches they produced from properly sized, healthy 2 year old female corns.

And on a final note all breeding Is a risk. Young or old. Some more risky than others. Have a Good one.

Exactly correct. Two years ago I had a 5 year old female become egg bound and all previous breedings went off without a hitch. Likewise, someone also shipped me a pair of 1 year old corns in the same pillow case. Apparently they bred because she laid 6 tiny tiny eggs later that year. Not sure if they were good or bad because they were laid in the water bowl (didn't know she was gravid). She never grew much more and always laid small clutches of 6 eggs or less. People asked for examples, there are two.

On topic: Chad, while you did not explicitly say "Start breeding at age 2, they do fine and dandy!", you did say it implicitly by not mentioning any of the potential hazards.

Based on this statement, then if I post a photo of my 3 year old pair of Pied Sided Bloodreds breeding, then I would need to add a disclaimer stating that there are potential hazards. After all, 3 year old corns could have problems during the entire breeding process just the same as a 7 year old female could have problems.

I was 5'3" when I was 11, certainly "big enough" to have babies. But despite my ovaries giving the green light, the rest of me was not ready. The same can be said for corn snakes.

I have seen this analogy twice and just not sure how it applies to this thread. Physically, once a human female begins menstrutaing then she can produce children, we all surely agree with that, but that is no where close to corns. IF IF IF human women delivered babies or eggs that were to be incubated and then left them and had no other connection, then of course these two would be similar. However, women care for their children both physically and pshycologically and snakes do not so this to me is a ridiculous comparision.

Also, what the heck does height have to do with humans producing babies? I was unaware there was a height requirement. Shhh, better not tell the "vertically challenged" people. Guess they haven't read the rule book advising proper breeding heights in humans.

Do I need to use smaller words? By not saying that breeding at age 2 can cause problems, you said that breeding at age 2 does not cause problems.

Sorry, I disagree with you and the others who insinuate this. Like I stated above, based on your statment here, then by ANY breeder NOT stating that breeding their 4 year old corns have potential problems, they are saying there will not be any problems. That is what you stated.

I do not know Chad but I think perhaps he may have been a previous irritant to some of you guys and therefore is taking the brunt of several posters. Sorry if this offends you Chad and I am not saying you are an irritant, this is just my observation/opinion on why you are being "virtually smacked around"

Sometimes its not that you could, but if you should. A six month dog could breed. Does that mean you should breed it? An 11 year old child could have babies. Does that mean they should?

Ethics my friend, Ethics! Is it ethical to breed an animal, just because you can?

Wayne

See my post above, this is a ridiculous argument, humans and snakes are not alike, this is more like comparing apples and hammers, not apples and oranges.

I've bred females at two years old and had no problems. I've bred females at three years old (and older) and had retained eggs, infertile eggs, etc. And vice versa. I've also had two year old females who I haven't bred from, who decided they were mature enough and so produced a clutch of slugs instead. Personally - if I have a two year old of good size producing follicles, I put a male in with her, as then at least I have a chance of eggs rather than slugs (in my experience there are more problems when a snake tries to lay a clutch of slugs than a clutch of fertile eggs).

Don Soderberg says it better than I can:
Your poll question implies that something is wrong with breeding sub two-year old corns. Viewers should be aware that age has very little to do with sexual maturity in snakes. Likewise, youth is no indication that there will be problems in corn snake breedings, but corns that are TOO SMALL to breed can be a big problem. Generally speaking, all nine-month old collies are the same size. Corn snakes (like most other serpent species) are not mature by age alone, and therefore can be between 14 and 48 inches by their second birthday. Granted some males over 30" long will not readily breed, indicating that both size AND age can play a role in sexual maturity, but conversely, I have seen four and five-year old female corns whose health was in potential danger if they were gravid.

I think it is wrong to equate maturity with age, unless you make a comment about the role SIZE plays in breeding criteria. EACH time you post about maturity, you should make some statement regarding size Vs age. Otherwise, you send an incorrect message to some of the less-seasoned corn keepers reading this forum. Since corns can safely reach a length of 36 " in ONE year, I think you would facilitate education about breeding corns better if you didn't solely cite age as a pre-requisite to maturity. Sorry to say that three different ways, but I want it to soak in.

It's fine to have an educated opinion about something this important, but I believe it's prudent to include information regarding opposing data. I do not judge you for saying it is your opinion that it's wrong to breed young corns, but I must point out to readers of this forum that age is not THE pre-requisite to safe corn snake breeding.

My general goal for breeding female corns is to do so when they are over 36" long (if heavy and healthy enough). This year, I have two female corns from 2007 that are gravid. Both are over 36" long and I have NO reservations about doing this. Some corns at 40" are not safe to breed. Approximately 60% of my females are ready to breed before their second birthdays. Virtually all of the other 40% are bred before their third b'days, BUT not all of them. Sometimes, four years of maturity is necessary. As it is with everything, no two corns are alike, so I caution everyone to consider size when determining the sexual "maturity", and NOT age.

Well, why isn't anyone smacking Don and Stephen around for stating it is ok to breed at two years old IF THE GIRL IS HEALTHY. Stephen hits a very good point in his post also. The females need to be excersized properly. In my opinion, obesity and lack of excersize are probably the two major contributors to issues for the females during breeding and laying. Most people tend ot know when a girl is too small and thin, but don't tend to think obesity is a major problem. Same goes for a male, obesity will kill the desire fater than any other factor.

BTW, Jim mentioned the wc corn, that was a female I caught in SC. It was my 2nd ever corn and she was a gravid wc corn at 26 inches long and she laid 12 perfectly healthy eggs. There were no bad eggs and all the babies hatched with no issues. As a side note, she did not lay the eggs until the last week in July of that year. I kept her for two more years with no ill affects of her breeding size. When I sold her, she was 34 inches long.

sorry for the long post, I am tired and sleepy, hopefully most of it makes sense, if not then oh well, I tried.

dc

dc

 

[Reptileman81]

I made some good points earlier in this thread and now it has turned into a all out no yes no yes maybe never you can you can't do this don't do that debate. Everyone here just has to realize that we are all individuals and we are going to do things as we individually want. Is it a bad thing to breed at 2 with females maybe. Is it a good thing to do I would not say so. The waiting for 3 years is the safe route to go. But some people don't go the safe route. Some are risk takers. With those risk have come out some of the craziest morphs in the last 10 years. I would not breed at 2 for about 70-80% of my females. But there is a few that its like hey she is big enough and she could make some crazy morphs why not lets take that risk.

I am just saying that everyone needs to stop bickering about this issue. Some believe is is bad some believe its ok and others are so so with it. That is our individuality!!!

 

[Reptileman81]

With this being said someone else said it earlier that they have seen females have eggs at 2 with out being with a male ever. I have seen this as well many times with females of all ages. Its from putting them down in the winter. They think that spring is here and they should make some eggs. Most will do this some will absorb the infertile eggs while others with lay slugs. I have had one that became egg bound from just one egg in here cause she thought she should produce some eggs at 2. I had to perform surgery on her and get the egg out. She live many years after that from what I understand but only as a pet she was never breed.

 

[medusacoils]

Sometimes its not that you could, but if you should. A six month dog could breed. Does that mean you should breed it? An 11 year old child could have babies. Does that mean they should?

Ethics my friend, Ethics! Is it ethical to breed an animal, just because you can?

Wayne

See my post above, this is a ridiculous argument, humans and snakes are not alike, this is more like comparing apples and hammers, not apples and oranges.


dc

dc

What I'm trying to figure out is what argument do you think I'm trying to make? Then if you think I'm trying to make an argument, what is ridiculous about it? I don't remember arguing either way, just giving an uneducated opinion that I have.

I only ask this because you have hen picked certain posts and parts of posts to formulate your own opinion, which I'm sure many find ridiculous.

I find it ridiculous that you use my posts to codify your claim of fact when it's impossible to do so.

Maybe if you read on or included my later post(s), you would have seen that I don't have the opinion you implied, but may or may not fall in line with another opinion. Apparently, that would have been to much to do. Here, I included it for you.

Sometimes its not what they would do in the wild. I'm suspecting, because I do not know, that the mortality rate of a gravid female is a lot higher in the wild, then in captivity. That's just an uneducated opinion.

And you are comparing apples and oranges. The snakes in our keep are not wild. They are very far from wild.They are probably housed in tanks, fed domesticated rodents, supplied with an artificial heat sources, drinks clean filtered watered, protected from the elements and is exposed to constant human contact. How is that wild?

We as keepers have an ethical responsibility to our animals. To make sure they are safe, fed and taken care of. As breeders, we are also held to a higher standard. Part of that is to not exploit them for our own personal gain. Breeding an animal that is not physiologically ready is an ethical tragedy. The costs can far outweigh the gains.

If you truly care for the animals in your keep, them work with them responsibly! I have been told that the rules of three is a guideline, not a standard. :shrugs: It's up to you to make the best decision regarding your animals as you can. Keeping safety in mind.

Wayne

Wayne

 

[amazondoc]

Back to the original issue of it being a drag to have to wait 3 (or 2) years --

This is one of the reasons why I breed CHICKENS instead of snakes. Six month turn-around time! :nyah:

 

[omni]

Some interesting debate on the 2 or 3 yr breedable age. There is risk at any age, but I would think if a corn doesn't pass all the 3's the risk is higher. Breeding younger, smaller exceptional animals should be for advanced keepers only who are aware of the risks and know their animals well.

The rule of 3's is a good rule of thumb- 3yrs, 3ft, 300g. It will save less experienced breeders like myself from some risk. Somewhere, somebody decided not on 4's or 2's, because it was found the health risk and resulting offspring was acceptable average for breeding 3's.

Has anyone documented using a 1yr old male successfully? How about any ppl that are working on a 'miniature' corn project?

 

[Sweetseraph]

I agree Omni. The rule of 3's is a good rule of thumb for new people to reduce the risk as much as possible. And it is just that...a rule of thumb, just like the Munson feeding plan. Not everyone follows that, but it's a great guide for newbies.

But, I also think people need to be careful when posting an off-handed comment with incomplete information because there are new people who might read it and think it's completely OK to start breeding all their corns at 2. It's not the same as posting a picture of corns breeding and having to post a disclaimer.

 

[starsevol]

Ok here is my experiance....
I have bred 2 year old females, 2 exactly last year.
My girls Elphaba and Babette.
I weighed them (both were over 285g) at the time, and both had excellent muscle tone. (They are 2 of my favorites so I tend to handle them alot).

Then I made a post or 2 on here asking advice on whether or not I should....and a few very well respected people said to go for it.

I did.
I did not expect any trouble with egg binding or anything like that. My girls were buff! Both laid overnight and had no trouble with egg retention and bounced back really fast. But in both cases I got slug soup.

Right now Babette is blue with her pre lay shed and is ginormous!
Fingers crossed!

 

[chad27]

A good point Was made in this thread. A breeding risk should've been posted on a 2yr old corn breeding then it should've been posted with other ages as well as they all are risk.

 

[Camby]

What I'm trying to figure out is what argument do you think I'm trying to make? Then if you think I'm trying to make an argument, what is ridiculous about it? I don't remember arguing either way, just giving an uneducated opinion that I have.

I only ask this because you have hen picked certain posts and parts of posts to formulate your own opinion, which I'm sure many find ridiculous.

I find it ridiculous that you use my posts to codify your claim of fact when it's impossible to do so.

Maybe if you read on or included my later post(s), you would have seen that I don't have the opinion you implied, but may or may not fall in line with another opinion. Apparently, that would have been to much to do. Here, I included it for you.



Wayne

I stated very clearly what I thought was ridiculous. You said An 11 year old child could have babies. Does that mean they should?

Ethics my friend, Ethics! Is it ethical to breed an animal, just because you can?

Wayne

That is what I said was ridiculous, comparing an 11 year old human having a child to a 2 year old corn laying eggs. You very clearly posted that statement, so that is what argument I think you are making. No one suggested 11 year old humans should have babies, the original discussion was if it was safe to breed corns at two. The answer has been posted several times.

dc