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Can you beat the 3yr turn over? Well...

Camby said:
I stated very clearly what I thought was ridiculous. You said An 11 year old child could have babies. Does that mean they should?

Ethics my friend, Ethics! Is it ethical to breed an animal, just because you can?

Wayne

That is what I said was ridiculous, comparing an 11 year old human having a child to a 2 year old corn laying eggs. You very clearly posted that statement, so that is what argument I think you are making. No one suggested 11 year old humans should have babies, the original discussion was if it was safe to breed corns at two. The answer has been posted several times.

dc
Click to expand...

Since your so sure about all of this, answer these questions.

How do you know that a 2 year old corn, who is of breeding size, is physiologically mature enough to breed?

If you cannot answer that question factually, then how is it ethical to breed that corn?

That's what I mean by ethics. For me, and this is MY opinion, I have an ethical responsibility to not place my animals at any more risk, then what is absolutely necessary. Yes, breeding is risky. I know that. But why add to that risk by breeding a corn that may or may not be physiologically ready?

You are under the assumption, just as I, that because they can breed, that it's OK to do so. How can we be certain that sexual maturity is directly related to size and not age in corns?

When I reference a human child, a dog, a monkey or whatever, it's not meant by a direct reference/relation, but by a vague reference/relation between sexual maturity and breeding. 11 year old girls can and (I cringe writing this) sometimes, successfully do have babies. That doesn't mean that they are physiologically ready. Corns can and sometimes, successfully do breed and lay eggs at 2 years old. Does that automatically mean they are physiologically ready? :shrugs:

Ethics my friend, Ethics! That's what we as keepers and breeders need to consider when we play god. If you find fault in ethical responsibility, then I don't know what to tell you.

I know how I feel and how I will treat the members of my collection. I will put their safety above my own needs and wants. Every time!

Wayne
 
I wouldn't try to grow females on and breed them early to beat the 3 year turnover because I'm a small-time hobbyist and my snakes are pets first, breeders second. I don't have anything cutting-edge to try to get on the market early and my income doesn't depend on selling corns. That gives me my personal perspective on breeding, but not the right to take a moral high ground.
If the success in playing the market for new morphs in good numbers made the difference in me paying my bills and putting food on the table, if my corns were my livelihood, I'd have a different outlook. They'd be livestock to me, I'd want them as healthy and well-looked after as possible but I wouldn't have the same emotional attachment to them.
Different perspectives, but neither is better imo. If it wasn't for large-scale breeders I wouldn't be able to buy my pets at reasonable prices!
 
Well

I would recommend waiting at least three years,in many cases four years snakes grow and mature at different ages. I have had females ovulate at 100 grams but that doesnt mean they should be bred.If a female ovulates at 300+ grams and has very good muscle tone I would say she is breedable.I have NOT bred ALOT of snakes this year that are 300 to 400 grams with great muscle tone,simply for the fact I dont want to over produce to many, for various reasons.Alot of these females are project animals, ones that have taken up to six years to get them! So take your time and choose your stock being very selective.I think thats a huge part that alot of people are missing here.(choosing/selecting stock).If your going to invest so much time and money into your hobby, the only way to go is to have the BEST you can find.Most people who just buy animals becuase the price was right dont stay doing it long.Just my two cents!:)
 
Well i can say i have a prime stock. I too agree That a good stock is a big factor on projects.
 
HMMMMMMMMMMM.........

Cutting edge or not, I agree with Stephen 3 yrs min....Just becouse one can doesn't make it favorable to do so,let alone jepordize yrs of selective breeding and breeding trials......Many of us have been in this hobby for many yrs. and have seen alot of the "old" morphs when they 1st came out.....To be compleatly honest,if something comes out this year,in 2-3 yrs it will be affordable.....It is just the facts of the cornsnake hobby.....

I know that I am more conserned about the health and well being of my snakes,than I am about making a few dollars....I see no reason to push my females just to stroke my ego IF a new morph happens to pip out of an egg.I love this hobby, just not the drive for money that it has become in the last decade or so.....
 
I have quoted you in black and my responses are in blue text

Since your so sure about all of this, answer these questions.

How do you know that a 2 year old corn, who is of breeding size, is physiologically mature enough to breed?

I don't, and the same is said for any 3 year old corn that is breeding size. We humans made up the 3 and 3 rule, pretty sure no one actually checked the snakes phsiological well being when making this rule

If you cannot answer that question factually, then how is it ethical to breed that corn?

I have provided my answer and now I pose one to you and anyone else including me. How do we know what the physiological well being of the snakes we keep is like when we place them in racks, aquariums or any other manner of caging? I personally do not know anyone that replicates the actual habitat and size of containment to match that of wild conditions. Do you? OR, for that matter, how are they affected when we change any manner of their wild conditions.

That's what I mean by ethics. For me, and this is MY opinion, I have an ethical responsibility to not place my animals at any more risk, then what is absolutely necessary. Yes, breeding is risky. I know that. But why add to that risk by breeding a corn that may or may not be physiologically ready?

Again, what factual proof do you have that any snake is physilogically ready to breed and lay eggs? What factual proof do you have that your methods or mine or anyones are the proper way? I think the answer to that question is because the snake breeds and lays eggs with no issues (for the most part). If that is the case, then my original answer that breeding a properly sized 2 year old female is acceptable. If there are no ill affects to that animal and there are none with breeding a 3-4 year old female what is the difference.

What if I sold you a female corn advertised as a 4 year old animal and in fact she was a really pushed 2 year old. You don't know this because she is healthy, proper size for a "3-4 year old" and you breed her and produce a good clutch. what is the difference, how would you determine she was ready other than the fact that she reacted favorably to the whole breeding process?

You are under the assumption, just as I, that because they can breed, that it's OK to do so. How can we be certain that sexual maturity is directly related to size and not age in corns?

See my response above that address this questionhe only other additional thought I have is that a 2-3 year old corn in the wild is very rarely the same size as a 2-3 year old captive raised corn. SO, I doubt very seriously very many 2 or 3 year old female wild corns breed becasue they are not appropriately sized. I think in the wild and consequently in captivity, the size dictates the breeding ability. That is just my uneducated guess, but based on observations of wild corns and rat snakes.

When I reference a human child, a dog, a monkey or whatever, it's not meant by a direct reference/relation, but by a vague reference/relation between sexual maturity and breeding. 11 year old girls can and (I cringe writing this) sometimes, successfully do have babies. That doesn't mean that they are physiologically ready. Corns can and sometimes, successfully do breed and lay eggs at 2 years old. Does that automatically mean they are physiologically ready? :shrugs:

I don't know what else to say, I have made my thoughts very clear on this issue. Humans and snake are not comparable in my opinion.

Ethics my friend, Ethics! That's what we as keepers and breeders need to consider when we play god. If you find fault in ethical responsibility, then I don't know what to tell you.

I am trying not to be a jerk here and truthfully I know that is difficult for me, many times I come off wrong but do not intend to do so. That said two or three times in this thread you have made the statement "Ethics my friend, Ethics" . I interpret this comment as if you are suggesting I am not ethical regarding the keeping and breeding of my corns. IF I am correct in my assumption then I am getting a little frustrated with your insinuation. I have said repeatedly that I would not breed a corn at ANY age that was not overall healthy, period, I can't say it any more better than that. SO, let's agree to disagree on the whole "pyhsiological ethics" issue. I have never lost a snake due to breeding at 2 years old and I will continue to breed a female at that age if she is of appropriate size and health. So let's drop this before the horse can't breathe anymore, it is becoming somewhat of a juvenile argument on both our parts I think.

I know how I feel and how I will treat the members of my collection. I will put their safety above my own needs and wants. Every time!

That is all anyone can ask, we put our snakes health at the forefront

I am done, no more arguments from me.

dc
 
Camby said:
I am trying not to be a jerk here and truthfully I know that is difficult for me, many times I come off wrong but do not intend to do so. That said two or three times in this thread you have made the statement "Ethics my friend, Ethics" . I interpret this comment as if you are suggesting I am not ethical regarding the keeping and breeding of my corns. IF I am correct in my assumption then I am getting a little frustrated with your insinuation. I have said repeatedly that I would not breed a corn at ANY age that was not overall healthy, period, I can't say it any more better than that. SO, let's agree to disagree on the whole "pyhsiological ethics" issue. I have never lost a snake due to breeding at 2 years old and I will continue to breed a female at that age if she is of appropriate size and health. So let's drop this before the horse can't breathe anymore, it is becoming somewhat of a juvenile argument on both our parts I think.

I know how I feel and how I will treat the members of my collection. I will put their safety above my own needs and wants. Every time!

That is all anyone can ask, we put our snakes health at the forefront

I am done, no more arguments from me.

dc
Click to expand...

Before this gets out of hand, I'm not suggesting that any one is being unethical. I think your missing something in my posts, which is one reason I hate "debating" on a forum. Points, expressions and meanings get lost in translation. To put the "ethics" suggestion to rest, that wasn't my intention. BTW, I originally mentioned it long before you chimed in on this discussion.

As far as the "rules of 3" thing. I don't look at it as a rule. Something else I have already mentioned previously. Just like so many other things I have mentioned, in my other posts, it's a guideline. Not a rule! How can we set "rules" when there is so little knowledge and information available on the subject. There are only uneducated assumptions and guesses, based on personal experience.

It's up to each one of us, to evaluate the animals in our collection and make a determination. Are we always going to get it right? I think not.

Thanks dc!

Wayne
 
Your poll question implies that something is wrong with breeding sub two-year old corns. Viewers should be aware that age has very little to do with sexual maturity in snakes. Likewise, youth is no indication that there will be problems in corn snake breedings, but corns that are TOO SMALL to breed can be a big problem. Generally speaking, all nine-month old collies are the same size. Corn snakes (like most other serpent species) are not mature by age alone, and therefore can be between 14 and 48 inches by their second birthday. Granted some males over 30" long will not readily breed, indicating that both size AND age can play a role in sexual maturity, but conversely, I have seen four and five-year old female corns whose health was in potential danger if they were gravid.

I think it is wrong to equate maturity with age, unless you make a comment about the role SIZE plays in breeding criteria. EACH time you post about maturity, you should make some statement regarding size Vs age. Otherwise, you send an incorrect message to some of the less-seasoned corn keepers reading this forum. Since corns can safely reach a length of 36 " in ONE year, I think you would facilitate education about breeding corns better if you didn't solely cite age as a pre-requisite to maturity. Sorry to say that three different ways, but I want it to soak in.

It's fine to have an educated opinion about something this important, but I believe it's prudent to include information regarding opposing data. I do not judge you for saying it is your opinion that it's wrong to breed young corns, but I must point out to readers of this forum that age is not THE pre-requisite to safe corn snake breeding.

My general goal for breeding female corns is to do so when they are over 36" long (if heavy and healthy enough). This year, I have two female corns from 2007 that are gravid. Both are over 36" long and I have NO reservations about doing this. Some corns at 40" are not safe to breed. Approximately 60% of my females are ready to breed before their second birthdays. Virtually all of the other 40% are bred before their third b'days, BUT not all of them. Sometimes, four years of maturity is necessary. As it is with everything, no two corns are alike, so I caution everyone to consider size when determining the sexual "maturity", and NOT age.
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I think the quote provided by Don is a very good summation of what should be taken into consideration about breeding cornsnakes. I personally do not like to breed smaller snakes and most of mine take 3 years to reach maturity. Yes, I've breed 2 year old animals without ill effects and I've also had to wait until 4 years too.

Some females that I have that are part of an ice motley project are small snakes...in the 250 gram range or so. They started ovulating as small snakes and I went ahead and bred a few of them. The ones that were bred laid fertile eggs, the ones that were not bred laid slugs, and a few laid nothing. To this day, all of those females are still small and still about the same size. None of them seemed to be affected by breeding or not breeding. Interestingly enough, one holdback offspring in particular from that side of the project is now one of the largest males in my collection so it appears size is variable. I also have some holdback female offspring from that part of the project and they are easily bigger than their mothers.

Cornsnakes, as well as snakes in general, can be peculiar and a man made chart of this many years and this much weight will not fit every snake. As Don was quoted as saying, maturity is a large factor in their reproduction. Personally, I will not try to breed smaller snakes unless they start ovulating. If I notice a female going off feed and starting to ovulate, I'll usually put her with a male if she looks robust and healthy.

As Jim and others have mentioned, in the wild things may happen differently. I have captured snakes that are MUCH smaller than the 3 year, 300 gram that were full of eggs and appeared healthy. Although I do not have lots of scientific experience with cornsnakes in the wild, I do not think females will ovulate if they do not have the proper size. I think ovulation is a big key and that snakes of too small a size or a compromised body for some other reason (injuries, parasites, etc) will not go into the first steps of reproducing. In the wild, at least with the rattlesnake studies I've been a part of and the literature I've read, snakes that become reproductive are considered mature and able to go through the entire reproductive process. Case in point, I have radio tagged rattlesnakes in my research that have given birth. After birth, they are very deflated and much skinner than usual. So far, every instance of reproduction has been met with at least one year off and in some instances two years off before they breed/give birth again. Although I cannot say with absolute certainty, I believe they do not ovulate again until their body mass is back to where they can handle another round of reproduction. In captivity, however, with the easy ability to acquire lots of food, rattlesnakes do not have problems breeding every year.
 
Thanks for that info Jeff! I do have one question though, because we know smaller corns can and sometime do breed. You said that you caught wild corns that were less than the 3 year, 300 gram and full of eggs. It's easy to tell if a snake is less than 300 grams, but how do you know how old they are? Did you check their ID's? :sidestep:

Wayne ;)
 
Can I add in a kind of side-tracked question? What do you do if you have a female (age five) that has a history of laying slugs, lots of slugs, (24 with one retained for a while), without mating? I don't really want to breed her this year, but I am positive she is going to lay again, regardless. I have a male that would go well with her, and both are nice examples of their morph, but I wanted to concentrate on just two "planned" clutches for my first year. Is it riskier to allow her to lay slugs again, or to go ahead and breed and get a huge clutch of something I wasn't so interested in breeding this year?
 
Nanci said:
Can I add in a kind of side-tracked question? What do you do if you have a female (age five) that has a history of laying slugs, lots of slugs, (24 with one retained for a while), without mating? I don't really want to breed her this year, but I am positive she is going to lay again, regardless. I have a male that would go well with her, and both are nice examples of their morph, but I wanted to concentrate on just two "planned" clutches for my first year. Is it riskier to allow her to lay slugs again, or to go ahead and breed and get a huge clutch of something I wasn't so interested in breeding this year?
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Hmmmmmm? Based soley on the fact that I know the snakes that you have I say go for it. Then you can send all the babies to me. I like working with project hets. ;)

Jay :cool:
 
Let's just say the offspring wouldn't be anything I need to add to my collection, since I already have several of that type. I would have to find homes for all of them.
 
medusacoils said:
Thanks for that info Jeff! I do have one question though, because we know smaller corns can and sometime do breed. You said that you caught wild corns that were less than the 3 year, 300 gram and full of eggs. It's easy to tell if a snake is less than 300 grams, but how do you know how old they are? Did you check their ID's? :sidestep:

Wayne ;)
Click to expand...

Actually, based on rough estimations of size in the population you can reasonably infer what the age classes are among the population based on these sizes. It is a population thing and is individual to the areas of study based on whether, prey abundance, etc. It is actually easier for the younger animals. In many field studies it is realatively easy to make age classes of yearling, juvenile, recently mature and adult and usually rough estimates of year age can be made. The snakes in question that I was talking about were animals that I reasonably concluded were probably in thier 3rd, perhaps 4th, year of life based on average growth in the systems they were being studied. But...to answer your question....No, I did not check thier ID's.

HOWEVER, I do have individually marked snakes that I can check their ID's if they were recaptured. I have a few clutches of eastern kingsnakes and timber rattlesnakes that were marked after hatching/birthing and released. If they were to be recaptured we would know their age.

Nanci said:
Can I add in a kind of side-tracked question? What do you do if you have a female (age five) that has a history of laying slugs, lots of slugs, (24 with one retained for a while), without mating? I don't really want to breed her this year, but I am positive she is going to lay again, regardless. I have a male that would go well with her, and both are nice examples of their morph, but I wanted to concentrate on just two "planned" clutches for my first year. Is it riskier to allow her to lay slugs again, or to go ahead and breed and get a huge clutch of something I wasn't so interested in breeding this year?
Click to expand...

The side tracked answer I would give would be to breed her. If she always lays slugs and last year she retained one, I'd be worried about more retention. Although not statistically studied in my collection, I seem to see that a snake that gives slugs is more likely to retain as well. I would think if you made them fertile, you may have a better chance at having her pass them successfully. That being said, most females that I have seen that have died due to egg retention have been ones with seemingly fertile clutches. :shrugs:

If she does give fertile eggs they do not necessarily have to be incubated and hatched. Fertile eggs could be destroyed but that is another ball of wax and a very different ethical issue. :sidestep:
 
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Well, acting on you guys' advice, I put them together. They hooked up in less than ONE minute. Virgin 2 year old male- way to go! They look so pretty together...
 
I don't want to be the only one who hasn't said this:

For the record, she said "physiological," not 'psychological"
 
This whole comparing humans,dogs,cats and monkeys to snakes has got to stop. These are all mammals. What do mammals do that reptiles dont. They raise there young. They dont just lay eggs somewhere they think is safe and leave never to come back. No!!!

This is why you can not use the whole ethnics thing here. You are saying that a 11 year old girls body is no more ready then a 2 year old corn snake. Well even if she has a kid with no problems she then has to raise it. A snake does not.

Now I said earlier that this thing has gotten way to heated.

Everyone buys, sells, trades, raises, feeds, breeds, incubates, hatches and so on different. Is any of it wrong on how someone else does something. NO!!! It is just different.

It may not be a good thing to breed at 2. I have seen bad things happen with it and then again very good things came from trying to pump a snake up to breed as early as possible.

It is just a risk that some are willing to take to get a great new morph quickly or because they live on the sale of there snakes. But with this only very experienced breeders should push there snakes so young and immature.

This country was founded on risk takers. Sometimes the greatest things come from the biggest risk.
 
Oh I think the ethics angle is very appropriate here. You can breed your snakes young and they may get through it. But the likely hood of having a problem certainly increases if the snake is young or undersized. To risk the health of your snake for the possible monitory gain is unethical. You are weighing your greed against the health of the snake.

We all breed snakes but we don’t all intentionally put the snake are risk. Being an experienced breeder won’t help if the snake is too small to get through the gestation period. There is nothing an experienced breeder could do to help her.

This country was not founded on people taking risks of killing their animals. It may be a risk to go west young man, but it is you ass that is on the line not the snakes. Don’t make this into something it is not. You are not being daring by risking someone or something else’s health.
 
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