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COLD arrival

Freezing is *not* painless for *any* animal. Think about what is happening to the animal on the cellular level. The cytoplasm of cells contains a pretty decent amount of water. When that water freezes, it expands. The membrane of the cells can't stretch enough for the expanding cytoplasm, and the cell lyses, meaning it splits. Ever put a sealed plastic waterbottle in the freezer? Now, imagine that waterbottle being your body. It's not pretty, and IMHO, it is not humane.

This reasoning could also account for the suspected damage to your snake. Freezing conditions led to cell damage which led to your snake's current condition. The good news is that most types of tissues will repair themselves if given enough time. Muscle tissue is usually fastest, followed by bone/connective tissue. Nerve cells can only repair themselves to a certain extent. The fact that your snake "pooed" is a very good sign, as it indicates there isn't too much damage. I do think that the animal probably has some neurological damage, given the way it's moving. If you're willing to have a somewhat more complicated animal, and the snake is willing to eat on her own, it might be a rewarding experience.

I've been checking this thread every day or so and I really think your actions are commendable.
 
Ahh....I didn't realize the opinions on freezing had changed.

I was always under the impression that when an animal was frozen....as their body gradually cooled they would lose consciousness LONG BEFORE they would feel any pain. If you are unconscious you feel NOTHING....hence anesthesia for surgery. I have heard this is the case with humans who die of exposure outside....they just sort of fall asleep and then freeze.

With cold blooded animals this process should be the same, if not MORE humane because a cold blooded animal should lose consciousness long before a warm blooded one that has the ability to prolong the cooling process.

The only time I can see the animal feeling pain would be if they were somehow flash frozen....where their outsides actually froze before they lost consciousness....say by dipping them into liquid nitrogen or something.

Anyway, as always....just my .02
 
Oh and by the way....since I do sound somewhat heartless here....


If the animal in question DOES in fact eat, I would certainly NOT suggest that you put it down. A special needs animal can have just as fullfilling a life as any other....if not more so.

In fact I have previously been caretaker to a flightless bat who was struck by lightning and a dogfighting reject pittbull that was so emaciated we thought it was a labrador. Both lived out loving and hapy lives.
 
Read through this thread regarding the difference between freezing reptiles vs. mammals. Reptiles do not "go to sleep" as mammals do.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44198&highlight=euthanasia


Drewby07 said:
Ahh....I didn't realize the opinions on freezing had changed.

I was always under the impression that when an animal was frozen....as their body gradually cooled they would lose consciousness LONG BEFORE they would feel any pain. If you are unconscious you feel NOTHING....hence anesthesia for surgery. I have heard this is the case with humans who die of exposure outside....they just sort of fall asleep and then freeze.

With cold blooded animals this process should be the same, if not MORE humane because a cold blooded animal should lose consciousness long before a warm blooded one that has the ability to prolong the cooling process.

The only time I can see the animal feeling pain would be if they were somehow flash frozen....where their outsides actually froze before they lost consciousness....say by dipping them into liquid nitrogen or something.

Anyway, as always....just my .02
Click to expand...
 
That post was interesting, but really disturbing. I don't think I could ever kill my snake. I would have to pay someone else to do it. I hope I never have to though! Like, big time.
 
When I read this (yes, from first page to last) I was crying making hard to read everything but I forced myself to do it.
How is she?
I'm dying to know!
My snakes not doing so well either and I just hope yours makes it through!
Good luck, Good Luck, Good Luck!
 
ICE as I now like to call her, is still alive. She is in blue, and more active. She has poo'd a couple times now, and drinks water. She is even conciously hiding in her hides as well.

Problem: feeding. I tried tease feeding a frozen thawed mouse... she snugled with it. One week later, I tried feeding a live somewhat larger mouse. She struck at it, but couldnt actually catch the mouse. I then stunned the mouse, and tried a semi-tease feed. Nothing.
I got back from spring break today, and tried feeding her again. This time I got a small fuzzy (not much bigger than a large pink), live. The mouse sometimes would go by her face, and Ice would strike, but in a defensive manner, not actually trying to take the mouse as food. This went on for a while, and I could tell she was getting very stressed out, seemingly scared of the fuzzy. I tried stunning the fuzzy, but once again no luck.

I got her March 8, now April 1st. She has drank water on a regular basis, poo'd at least 3 times, is in blue now, and very close to shedding, now conciously hides in hide boxes, obviously still moving better than before, but Not feeding on her own. That being the overall situation I have a few further questions:

Does anyone here suggest force feeding, or is the overall concensus that because she is not feeding on her own, she should be put to sleep? ( I personally would love her to stay alive, but also understand euthanizing her is a proper action)
 
I say give her longer, she has went through alot. Don't try to feed her again until after she sheds, then try a hopper. I'd personally use f/t and place her and it in a deli cup overnight.
 
If she seems fairly normal, I wouldn't put her down just because she didn't feed yet. Many snakes don't eat the first couple of weeks if they get stressed - and now she is blue, so might not be expected to eat now either.
 
I forgot to ask whether the descibed ailments are possibly contagious. I've read horrible stories of weird diseases snakes carry, along with parasites and mites that can easily spread through an entire rack of snakes. She (ICE) has been quarentined since her arrival on 3/8. What are your feelings about adding her to the rack?
Thanks,
 
I'd personally keep her in quarintine until your sure she has no mites or parasites. But right now I think that is the last of your worries.

Like was mentioned before. I'd hold off trying to feed till after she has shed. Some snakes just won't eat while in blue and ready to shed. A day or so after she has shed I would put her in a seperate container(deli cup or something of similiar size) and leave her and the f/t prey item alone for awhile.

If that doesnt' help a visit with a herp vet may have to be your next option as they may be able to assess her condition and help you decide if furthering her life after what she's been through is the right thing to do.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do...
 
marchettid said:
ICE as I now like to call her, is still alive. She is in blue, and more active. She has poo'd a couple times now, and drinks water. She is even conciously hiding in her hides as well.

Problem: feeding. I tried tease feeding a frozen thawed mouse... she snugled with it. One week later, I tried feeding a live somewhat larger mouse. She struck at it, but couldnt actually catch the mouse. I then stunned the mouse, and tried a semi-tease feed. Nothing.
I got back from spring break today, and tried feeding her again. This time I got a small fuzzy (not much bigger than a large pink), live. The mouse sometimes would go by her face, and Ice would strike, but in a defensive manner, not actually trying to take the mouse as food. This went on for a while, and I could tell she was getting very stressed out, seemingly scared of the fuzzy. I tried stunning the fuzzy, but once again no luck.

I got her March 8, now April 1st. She has drank water on a regular basis, poo'd at least 3 times, is in blue now, and very close to shedding, now conciously hides in hide boxes, obviously still moving better than before, but Not feeding on her own. That being the overall situation I have a few further questions:

Does anyone here suggest force feeding, or is the overall concensus that because she is not feeding on her own, she should be put to sleep? ( I personally would love her to stay alive, but also understand euthanizing her is a proper action)
Click to expand...


Im so so glad to hear she is still alive!! I wouldnt put her down. My snake will not eat before, during or after a shed, and even then her appetite wasnt what it was before. And your snake has had lots of stress mine hasnt so take that in account too, I would guess a snake whos been through what yours has, would not take to jiggling anything in her face. None of mine feed from the "teasing" method.


Just try things. After 4 weeks of not eating (and me panicking) I bought a fresh frozen pinkie, brained it, cut the back and heated it up (very hot) in a cup of chicken broth (which I read to do here) And waalaah, she ate. After weeks and weeks of eating pinkies, my snake will not eat anything now unless I do the chicken broth.

Its bizarre to me because I find myself cooking chicken mice every week, but hey she changed and this is how she will eat, she also has decided she doesnt want anyone watching her eat. Excuse us.

The hard part is worrying and not offering her food TOO MUCH. You will condition her to refuse food, wait 5 days if not 7 between offering her a meal.....and when shes with her meal, cover her and leave her alone with it.
 
I would like to make a few comments about this thread. Obviously, since the fecies was frozen in the box, it was left outside in the elements over night. The contents would not be frozen if they were in a building over night and then transferred to the truck if the local conditions were 25 degrees. There are some things to be considered when shipping with heat packs. I have had several customers comment about my lack of heat packs at times. Weather conditions along the entire route of the snake must be considered when deciding whether or not to use heat packs.

I have left a shipping box outside over night at 20 degrees, and the 40 hour heat pack will raise the temperature in the box about 20 degrees. If I would have had a snake in that box, it would have gotten down to 40 degrees, but would not be harmed. If temps in route to your location in any town are near 70 degrees, this means that the temp in the box with a heat pack would be at least 90 degrees, and most likely much higher. I am sure a 40 hour heat pack will raise the temp more at 70 degrees than at 20 degrees.

The goal during shipping is to get your new snake to you safely. Since snakes brumate in the wild, temps above freezing will not hurt them as long as their stomachs are empty. I personally do not believe that snakes are stressed much at all during shipping and at low temps, they are just sitting there waiting to warm up. After they warm up to normal temps, I do not see any reason to wait 7 days to feed them, especially since they shouldn’t have been fed prior to shipping. Shipping is not the cause of most stress to Snakes, over handling by their new owners is usually the culprit.

I personally do not like to ship unless the temps are between 20 - 90 degrees, but summer shipping scares me. I have never lost a shipment in the winter, but a few during the summer. Ice packs only last about 12 hours and are gone. There are many things to consider during shipping, and putting a heat pack in the box automatically if temps are cold on the receiving end, is not always a good thing. If it is 20 degrees in your area, but 75 in Memphis TN, where almost all FedEx packages go through, your snake would cook in route.

Obviously mistakes were made during this shipment, but I suspect that the package was left in the truck over night. It is really not possible to keep the temp in shipping boxes at exactly 80 degrees during shipping. I feel it is much more dangerous to ship during the Summer over Winter conditions. All it takes, is a driver to put your shipment on the hot pavement for a little while, or in a hot place in their truck and the snakes are very stressed and at high risk of death. Heat packs are a fantastic tool during shipping, but I would never use one if temps are around 70 degrees in any town along the route of your package.

Obviously, if temps are 25 in your area and 90 in mine, then the shipping should be postponed until temps in both areas are acceptable. I personally would not have much of a problem shipping a snake where local conditions are 25 degrees without a heat pack. If the package was handled correctly, it should have arrived in perfect condition and not expose to 25 degrees overnight. I would only ship if the package was to be delivered by 10am.

This is another thing that must be considered during shipping. There are a lot of areas that deliver by 10 am is not available. Some are by noon, some by 4:30 and some by the end of the day. If you use a heat pack in an area where the night time temps are 25 degrees, but deliver is by the end of the day, and the temps are going to be 70 that day, there will be the risk of over heating.

I believe shipping of snakes with FedEx is very safe. I am not sure why people think Corns are so stressed during shipping. They are in a closed dark box. Cool temps should not stress them, but hot temps certainly will. I use heat packs a lot, but they are not something that I put in the box automatically when my temps outside or the customers night time lows are below freezing. I believe the shippers biggest mistake was shipping the snake with food in its digestive track. This is definitely a no, no during cold conditions. The shipping company obviously did not handle the package well, or it would not have arrived frozen if the temps were 25 degrees, unless the area of delivery had a late delivery time and the package sat in the truck all day at 25 degrees. It sounds like the shipper and shipping company both made mistakes.

My only reason for responding to this thread was mainly to caution against using heat packs automatically when temps are cool. I have had complaints about not using heat packs when the temps are 50-60 degrees in the customers town. “They arrived frozen!”, which was not actually the case, and in route temps were near 80 degrees. If heat packs are used under these conditions the snakes will certainly die due to over heating. We definitely need to be aware, that temps in this country can vary from well below freezing in some areas, while being near 100 degrees in other areas.

Use heat packs with caution.
 
I totally agree, but when being shipped, wouyldn't the constant motion and bumping of being moved around a facility and the country be a little stessful, even if the box and tempatures are not?
 
ecreipeoj said:
I would like to make a few comments about this thread. Obviously, since the fecies was frozen in the box, it was left outside in the elements over night. The contents would not be frozen if they were in a building over night and then transferred to the truck if the local conditions were 25 degrees. There are some things to be considered when shipping with heat packs. I have had several customers comment about my lack of heat packs at times. Weather conditions along the entire route of the snake must be considered when deciding whether or not to use heat packs.

I have left a shipping box outside over night at 20 degrees, and the 40 hour heat pack will raise the temperature in the box about 20 degrees. If I would have had a snake in that box, it would have gotten down to 40 degrees, but would not be harmed. If temps in route to your location in any town are near 70 degrees, this means that the temp in the box with a heat pack would be at least 90 degrees, and most likely much higher. I am sure a 40 hour heat pack will raise the temp more at 70 degrees than at 20 degrees.

The goal during shipping is to get your new snake to you safely. Since snakes brumate in the wild, temps above freezing will not hurt them as long as their stomachs are empty. I personally do not believe that snakes are stressed much at all during shipping and at low temps, they are just sitting there waiting to warm up. After they warm up to normal temps, I do not see any reason to wait 7 days to feed them, especially since they shouldn’t have been fed prior to shipping. Shipping is not the cause of most stress to Snakes, over handling by their new owners is usually the culprit.

I personally do not like to ship unless the temps are between 20 - 90 degrees, but summer shipping scares me. I have never lost a shipment in the winter, but a few during the summer. Ice packs only last about 12 hours and are gone. There are many things to consider during shipping, and putting a heat pack in the box automatically if temps are cold on the receiving end, is not always a good thing. If it is 20 degrees in your area, but 75 in Memphis TN, where almost all FedEx packages go through, your snake would cook in route.

Obviously mistakes were made during this shipment, but I suspect that the package was left in the truck over night. It is really not possible to keep the temp in shipping boxes at exactly 80 degrees during shipping. I feel it is much more dangerous to ship during the Summer over Winter conditions. All it takes, is a driver to put your shipment on the hot pavement for a little while, or in a hot place in their truck and the snakes are very stressed and at high risk of death. Heat packs are a fantastic tool during shipping, but I would never use one if temps are around 70 degrees in any town along the route of your package.

Obviously, if temps are 25 in your area and 90 in mine, then the shipping should be postponed until temps in both areas are acceptable. I personally would not have much of a problem shipping a snake where local conditions are 25 degrees without a heat pack. If the package was handled correctly, it should have arrived in perfect condition and not expose to 25 degrees overnight. I would only ship if the package was to be delivered by 10am.

This is another thing that must be considered during shipping. There are a lot of areas that deliver by 10 am is not available. Some are by noon, some by 4:30 and some by the end of the day. If you use a heat pack in an area where the night time temps are 25 degrees, but deliver is by the end of the day, and the temps are going to be 70 that day, there will be the risk of over heating.

I believe shipping of snakes with FedEx is very safe. I am not sure why people think Corns are so stressed during shipping. They are in a closed dark box. Cool temps should not stress them, but hot temps certainly will. I use heat packs a lot, but they are not something that I put in the box automatically when my temps outside or the customers night time lows are below freezing. I believe the shippers biggest mistake was shipping the snake with food in its digestive track. This is definitely a no, no during cold conditions. The shipping company obviously did not handle the package well, or it would not have arrived frozen if the temps were 25 degrees, unless the area of delivery had a late delivery time and the package sat in the truck all day at 25 degrees. It sounds like the shipper and shipping company both made mistakes.

My only reason for responding to this thread was mainly to caution against using heat packs automatically when temps are cool. I have had complaints about not using heat packs when the temps are 50-60 degrees in the customers town. “They arrived frozen!”, which was not actually the case, and in route temps were near 80 degrees. If heat packs are used under these conditions the snakes will certainly die due to over heating. We definitely need to be aware, that temps in this country can vary from well below freezing in some areas, while being near 100 degrees in other areas.

Use heat packs with caution.
Click to expand...


I actually work for Fed ex and I havent been warm the 4 years Ive worked for them once. Just a little note, there is not heat in the back of the truck, especially that the truck stops every so many minutes and the door opens for the driver to yank a package out. Ive sat many times back there, you may as well be standing outside, it is not to be considered warm or "indoors".

Same IMO for the actual facility/airport/terminal; in the winter without a heat pack, your banking on some other force not controlled by you the shipper, keeping the snake warm.

Keep in mind people are cheap. How many people here bring sweaters to work because your office is cold, or the heat is broke or the janitor doesnt care that the boiler isnt working. Same with Fedex facilities.

Where ever we keep the packages are to be considered "outdoors" because of the constant flow of packages. You cant keep a room warm when the door or garage door opens every 10 minutes and someone who isnt in a rush and is lazy is loading more packages into the facility.

The objective with Fedex is to get your package to you on time, the day you want it. NOT to keep your package indoors or warm. Most people ship sweaters not cold blooded animals, we do not provide warmth for packages, thats the shippers responsibillity. Dont bank on us.

No shipping facility is ever warm. Take a bus during the winter, when it stops every 200 yards, the door opens and cold air comes in, the bus is never warm.

If you think its Ok for the snake to be cold thats a different story. But someone recieved a snake popsicle, and no matter your stance the fact of the matter is the snake wouldve been fine if the seller included a heat pack.
 
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