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creamsicle

Jared, I still take issue with the taxonomic split that made "great plains rats" a separate species from corns to begin with. They were the western variant of cornsnakes for decades, then a subspecies of corn, and now they are classified as a whole new species. The difference is duller coloration, *some* have odd belly checkering -almost like a diffused corn, and sometimes the eyes of *some* emoryi appear are more rounded. There's not a scale count or other physical characteristic that I am aware of that makes them possible to tell from a corn in a black and white photo.

Taxonomy is a weird thing. Some taxonomists are "lumpers" and others are "splitters." Meaning some of them tend to look for similarities when determining how closely related things are, and some look for differences to determine that they are farther apart. I haven't worked extensively with Great Plains rats, but I've had a few in my day, as well as some "rootbeers." But to call a creamsicle a hybrid in the same way you'd call a jungle corn a hybrid is just not honest. And I haven't read a post of the usual suspect I presume is quoting a lot and saying little, so apologies if this post is a bit off track.
 
Chip said:
Jared, I still take issue with the taxonomic split that made "great plains rats" a separate species from corns to begin with. They were the western variant of cornsnakes for decades, then a subspecies of corn, and now they are classified as a whole new species. The difference is duller coloration, *some* have odd belly checkering -almost like a diffused corn, and sometimes the eyes of *some* emoryi appear are more rounded. There's not a scale count or other physical characteristic that I am aware of that makes them possible to tell from a corn in a black and white photo.

Taxonomy is a weird thing. Some taxonomists are "lumpers" and others are "splitters." Meaning some of them tend to look for similarities when determining how closely related things are, and some look for differences to determine that they are farther apart. I haven't worked extensively with Great Plains rats, but I've had a few in my day, as well as some "rootbeers." But to call a creamsicle a hybrid in the same way you'd call a jungle corn a hybrid is just not honest. And I haven't read a post of the usual suspect I presume is quoting a lot and saying little, so apologies if this post is a bit off track.
Click to expand...

This, a most excellent point :)
 
From that breeding I kept this female .
Raised her up.
Bred her to a zipperstriped motley ultramel het caramel male.
Got a couple of these:
attachment.php
 
Why, those are striped ultra caramels with gold dust eyes!
 
Aww they are cute! As much as I love creamsicles, I really have a hard time with the red eyes freaking me out.
 
airenlow said:
Correct. An Amel can't be another morph, an Anery can't be another morph, etc...
Click to expand...

The problem is that creamsicle does not mean amel. Amel means amelanistic however. My understanding is that one can have creamsicle, frosted creamsicle, even sunkissed creamsicle, motley creamsicle. I would agree that amel can't be anything other than amel. You may have amelanistic genes in a morph and selectively breed for other genes that modify or add to the look of your new morph which you are then free to label as you wish if no one has made that combination before... correct me if I am wrong? Think of candycanes..... candycanes did not have to be labeled candycanes, they could have been labeled amel miamicools or even candycreams...:dunce:
 
Creamsicles have always been amelanistic corn/emoryi crosses...The only known or established line of "frosted creams" that I know of was the Gray Snow line founded by Barr/Falcon, of which there were amels, anerys, snows and ghosts, all lumped under the name "Frosted Creams"...Where Frosting and Grey rat genes in corn snakes became connected is before my time and/or lost in the annals of "who said whut", but the few pics of true gray rat/corn morph combo's show pretty obvious "crosses", and all of them were frosted. Snakes that I would think (they did to me) say" I'm not a corn snake".
 
One very valid question here though is this…. if as Kathy Love stated on the previous link supplied…. candycane corn snakes were created from several generations of selectively breeding Miami phase and creamsicles to get the proper effect… even if we acknowledge that not all candycanes may have been made this way…. do we not also have to acknowledge that both creamsicles and candycanes of hybrid origin carry the amel gene and are therefore different morphs both carrying amel phenotypes in addition to other genes?

airenlow said:
A creamsicle is an Amel corn x emoryi hybrid. So it can't have other morphs.
Click to expand...

airenlow said:
Correct. An Amel can't be another morph, an Anery can't be another morph, etc...
Click to expand...

Now aside from all the smart cookie jeers from beautifullywild head bunting into a wall….

Walter Smith said:
Actually, you will get Amels out of this breeding. Creamsicles are the result of the combine of Amel Corn X Emoryi Rat.
A Creamsicle is basically a Amel variation such as a Candycane or Reverse Okeetee.

The breeding of a Creamsicle X Golddust the clutch, in theory, would result in:

1/2 Amel (varitation due to Emoryi) het Caramel
1/2 Ultramel (variation due to Emoryi) het Caramel

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
Click to expand...

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129535&highlight=creamsicle

When does a candycane bred from a Miami phase x (creamsicle) gain pure status? Agreed, perhaps not all candycanes have creamsicle in their lineage… but then that also begs the question… where did all the lines of candycanes with creamsicle in their lineage go?
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
where did all the lines of candycanes with creamsicle in their lineage go?
Click to expand...

I think you mean
Where did all the candycanes with emoryi in their lineage go?

Here's a few more info links. You know how I like to toss around fodder.
http://www.hisscanada.com/HISS newsletter Vol 1.pdf

http://www.cornpedia.eu/modules.php?name=cornpedia&op=content&tid=39

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1475630,1475747&key=2008&show_threads=2 be sure to check out the rest of the thread links at the bottom of that linked page. Loads of juicy stuff to keep you going and going and going. ;)
 
"...since creamsicles have
been bred with corn snakes very
extensively, it can be impossible to tell if
a snake has creamsicle background
based on appearance."
http://www.hisscanada.com/HISS newsletter Vol 1.pdf

"sure must only be a few drops of that emoryi left by now, since no more creams were added in since at least 1990, as far as I can remember)....COOL. THANKS FOR THE HISTORY. I SAW MY FIRST CREAMSICLES IN TUCSON WHEN JOHN MARTIN BRED ALBINO CORNS TO EMORY'S. HE GOT THE ALBINO CORNS IN THE EARLY 80S (MAYBE LATE 70S) FROM ERNIE WAGNER. TRADED A MEX MEX SOMEONE CAUGHT IN TUCSON FOR THEM. HE REPORTED TO ME THAT THE F2S WERE FADED, UGLY ALBINOS AND HE DROPPED THE PROJECT. OF COURSE, THEY LATER BECAME KNOWN AS CREAMSICLES....- - - - I got my first creamsicles from Kevin Enge at Hogtown in Gainesville, Florida. By then, we already had no-white (sunglow) corns and reverse okeetees. Some of the first creamsicles we obtained had very light backgrounds. We happened to have a female albino corn with a very light background, so bred it, the light creams, and a couple of reverse okeetees with a very light background together for a few years. We added in a Miami phase or two with little or no orange in the background. That group became the foundation for our candycane line. Then over the years refined it, adding other corns as needed. But as far as I remember, we never added candycane to alb. okeetees, only the candycanes got the dose of creams, along with other founding stock. And the fact that alb. okeetees were added to candycanes (but no candycanes were added to the alb. okeetee projects) seems to have caused the confusion about what is pure and what is not.....However, unless you can trace a line's ancestry back to the wild, there is no way to guarantee any line is "pure" (and there is a slight chance of "contamination" even from the wild!) Back in the '80s, albino corns were much more readily available than creams, so I have no reason to believe that the original albinos had cream in them. But I can't trace them back to the wild....
" http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1475630,1475747&key=2008&show_threads=2

Thanks Dave, you are most certainly a wealth of information. Thank you for taking the time to share this.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
When does a candycane bred from a Miami phase x (creamsicle) gain pure status?
Click to expand...

It won't, if you are of the school of thought that any introduction of genes from a non corn makes it impure.

Agreed, perhaps not all candycanes have creamsicle in their lineage… but then that also begs the question… where did all the lines of candycanes with creamsicle in their lineage go?
Click to expand...

Into the great mixing vat that is "pet corn snakes".
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
And that my friend took courage to state.
Click to expand...

I'm a bold pirate for sure ;)

It is what it is though. The "pet corn" has been mixed and matched so many times throughout the last 30 odd and more years by so many people, from the largest industry breeders down to guys like me, that to look at any "pet" corn morph without considering the fact that here "may" be more than corn in it's background is naive. Again, it is what it is. They're "pets", in a broad sense of the word, and no more natural compared to the one you pick up in the woods than a labridoodle is to a wolf. People strain and stress, fret and worry over this issue. Work with locality stuff, and even then find it yourself or know your source.

And playing with morphs is 'sposed to be fun, folks shouldn't worry that their line of candycane might be a watered down 1.5% rat snake, imho :)
 
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