Culling 'side product' hatchlings

[Roy Munson]

I do see now that killing purposely bred offspring from my virtual bairdi x yellow rat snake cross because nobody wants to buy them, might be considered ethical, though morally it does not feel good. I would never be able to do so because of the latter... I would feel horrible and probably end up keeping them all and selling some beloved snakes instead to good homes...

How would you know that the snakes that you sold actually went to good homes? Is it immoral or unethical to sell a snake to a person without knowing if they have the knowledge, will and means to take care of it? No seller has ever asked me if I knew how to take care of a snake they were selling me, and I've purchased from all the "big name" corn breeders. What about selling to pet stores, wholesalers, or reptile show attendees? I'm guessing that 50-75% of corns sold this way end up just as prematurely dead as a humanely-culled hatchling, many of them suffering slow deaths. Why? Because when we flood the market with low-end, cheap corns, they become disposable pets. Junior has only $20 to spend on his obsession of the moment, and we provide him his victim. Is this ethical? I don't know, and I'm not going to judge. But my own sense of morality tells me not to contribute to this situation.

 

[tyflier]

The forum still won't let me rep you again yet. But your debate points are so logical and well thought out that I think you must be part Vulcan, lol!

If you had any idea how much this simple statement means to me...Thank you!

Russell, thanks to you to.

Dean--
I completely agree with what you are saying. However, as a seller, it is, in my opinion, part of my responsibility, to educate my customers as much as possible. That is still no guarantee of success, but really...what more can I do? I would still rather provide as much information as possible, as well as my cell-phone number for any questions or concerns, to help ensure that "my babies" are well cared for. I also plan to "screen" my buyers...if a young kid comes to the table to buy a snake, they will not recieve one without my discussing the siituation with mom and/or dad. If they DO purchase a snake for junior, they will recieve as much education as I am able to provide and a card with my name, phone number and email address which they are welcome to use for ANY questions.

I really think that beyond that, morally I have done all that I can. Perhaps I may change my opinion on this in the future, or perhaps not...I can't predict that future.

Blutengel--

I'm glad to see that while we may not agree just yet, we can at least understand each other and accept each other's opinions as valid and responsible, even if we can't agree on them...:cheers:

 

[SnakeAround]

How would you know that the snakes that you sold actually went to good homes? Is it immoral or unethical to sell a snake to a person without knowing if they have the knowledge, will and means to take care of it? No seller has ever asked me if I knew how to take care of a snake they were selling me, and I've purchased from all the "big name" corn breeders. What about selling to pet stores, wholesalers, or reptile show attendees? I'm guessing that 50-75% of corns sold this way end up just as prematurely dead as a humanely-culled hatchling, many of them suffering slow deaths. Why? Because when we flood the market with low-end, cheap corns, they become disposable pets. Junior has only $20 to spend on his obsession of the moment, and we provide him his victim. Is this ethical? I don't know, and I'm not going to judge. But my own sense of morality tells me not to contribute to this situation.

With good homes I mean I would sell some higher end ones to serious breeders which give them what they need because of their value to their project at least. That way I would be able to take care of all hybrids myself, cause they have a chance of ending up in the wrong hands. But, to be honest this is theory since I am very fond of the snakes I have... not sure if I woudl be able to do so emotionally. That is why I did not breed the bairdi to the yellow rat... I would have to bring them to a pet shop or kill them... breeding snakes with that destination does not feel right to me.

Chris; :cheers:

 

[Roy Munson]

Dean--
I completely agree with what you are saying. However, as a seller, it is, in my opinion, part of my responsibility, to educate my customers as much as possible. That is still no guarantee of success, but really...what more can I do? I would still rather provide as much information as possible, as well as my cell-phone number for any questions or concerns, to help ensure that "my babies" are well cared for. I also plan to "screen" my buyers...if a young kid comes to the table to buy a snake, they will not recieve one without my discussing the siituation with mom and/or dad. If they DO purchase a snake for junior, they will recieve as much education as I am able to provide and a card with my name, phone number and email address which they are welcome to use for ANY questions.

I really think that beyond that, morally I have done all that I can. Perhaps I may change my opinion on this in the future, or perhaps not...I can't predict that future.

I admire with your intentions here, Chris, but they can only be reasonably carried out if you have either lots of time, or few hatchlings to sell. I guess my view on this is a little "colder" than yours. I think it is the responsibility of the buyer to know how to care for their purchases. Sure, I'll be available here or by email to answer questions, but I won't be fielding calls at home or on my cell phone. It's a sad fact that people are lazy. We see it every day on this forum. Why spend the whopping $15 on a book, or spend two minutes researching something when the answers are a phone-call or poorly-composed opening post away? I don't have time for those people. If I didn't have a full-time job other than snake-breeding, maybe I'd be more forgiving in my approach. But considering that this hobby has only been a vast money-pit so far for me, I don't see that day coming soon. :grin01:

 

[E.Crassus]

Usually I would of commented sooner but some of the comments made me hold my tongue (which is like a coiled viper at times).
To sum my views up basically:
1. As a breeder I feel it is my responsibility to take what comes to me, whether I get all normals, hybrids, all Lavas, deformed snakes or a mix of all of those i feel it is my responsibility to look after those snakes the same, the best I can.
2. However, if a snake is deformed to the point where life would not be worth living due to an inability to eat due to spine kinks etc then yes I would reluctantly kill the snake.
3. To me all snakes are equal and should be treated as such (conditions, size, housing the usual things not applicable, im referring to a snake is a snake whether its a hibrid or pure line)
4. Hybrids are snakes to, and should be treated the same as pure breds.
5. If a project of mine doesnt go to plan then that is my misfortune or mistake, I therefore sell the snakes I dont want, and keep the ones I do, simple as that
6. To me hybrids are a snake, how someone could be so cold hearted as to kill a snake because it is not pure is beyond me, some hybrids are gorgous animals and if I find a line of my snakes is hybridised then thats unfortunate but not a big deal, not worth killing the snakes.
I just really hope my opinions make sense and dont enrage anyone because these are my opinions not anyone elses and should be treated as such.
Killing animals is something I find dispicable in all cases and to think for commercial reasons someone could kill a living thing with as much right to live as you or I is beyond me, it actually makes me feel physically sick

 

[SnakeAround]

Crassus, no surprise but 100% agreed on

 

[Roy Munson]

Killing animals is something I find dispicable in all cases and to think for commercial reasons someone could kill a living thing with as much right to live as you or I is beyond me, it actually makes me feel physically sick

So you're a strict vegan, you don't use animal products, you don't receive medical treatment, you live in a place that was constructed without displacing or destroying wildlife, and you only purchase products that were manufactured at places where animal life was neither displaced nor destroyed in order to bring you the product? I love animals too, and I don't like them to be killed senselessly, but I don't see how a person with your convictions could live in a modern society. Are you physically sick all the time? :shrugs:

 

[SnakeAround]

Crassus, no surprise but 100% agreed on

Though dispicable might be a bit too harsh for me...

 

[E.Crassus]

So you're a strict vegan, you don't use animal products, you don't receive medical treatment, you live in a place that was constructed without displacing or destroying wildlife, and you only purchase products that were manufactured at places where animal life was neither displaced nor destroyed in order to bring you the product? I love animals too, and I don't like them to be killed senselessly, but I don't see how a person with your convictions could live in a modern society. Are you physically sick all the time? :shrugs:

Dean I was merely referring to myself having an inability to kill animals directly, with my own 2 hands.
I think my comments have been a little misinterpreted, needless slaughter is what I disagree with, but even I have to eat to live.

 

[E.Crassus]

Want some new blood? Ok I'll add my 2 pennies.

First of all I voted for reason 1. Why? Because an unhealthy, deformed, kinked defect of a snake is unsightly. Yes It may live, it may eat, hell it may even survive to become an adult, but I honestly wouldn't give that sort of snake the time nor money. Sure there may be someone out there with so much love to give and raise this poor defect, but I wouldn't want to put an animal through that. Would it be ethical to let it live for life's sake?

Secondly I cannot believe people are questioning culling snakes without the "right look". Thats almost like saying all ugly children shot be shot at birth. There is NO STANDARD in snake morphs. Unlike dogs and cats there are standards set by Kennel clubs of how that breed SHOULD be. We all know a bloodred is diffused and the best adults are considered nearly patternless deep red. However what about all those bloods that are fully patterned and brown in colouration? Are they defects? NO, because no standard has been set.

One thing about snake morphs (and the thing I love the most) is the variety in each morph. Consider this, is a brightly coloured sunglow BETTER than a broken patterend, white speckly common amel (vomitmel)? To some people maybe... but its still an amel. I can understand keeping the best looking offspring to linebreed or improve a particular trait or look. But I cannot understand culling apparently ugly hatchlings. Off topic a little yes, but the same goes to hybrids. I wouldn't cull a hybrid for looking too similar to its kingsnake mother, or corn snake father. Just the same as people don't cull babies because its too similar to its African American mother and Caucasian father.

I honestly believe it is unethical to act like god in producing life so easily, and taking it away with no consequences. These "surplus" hatchling are here because of OUR selfishness... For brighter morphs, for supplying petstores, for our own greed. Whatever the reason for these hatchlings to be produce, we do it and we have the responsibility to deal with it.

I 100% agree that sending hatchlings to petstores can be like sending them to the slaughterhouse... but at least they are given a chance. Not every snake that is wholesaled will die, some even end up in the hands of good people like Mr Mike who has purchased many a petstore corn, and even myself. My first two cornsnakes were from a petshop. A bad one at that. But I rectified that and now have two beautiful adult males, just an anery and a normal at that.

I am going to open a can of worms and say that it is utter snobbery to cull corn snakes for not being sellable or highend. Give them away... donate the surplus to class rooms or family's who are interested in reptiles yet would not take the plunge otherwise. Use them to educate others and maybe the common miserable overpriced petstore snake will become a thing of the past.
It may be a loss of money, but life is priceless... IMO.

Very well put Elle
There I replied :grin01:

 

[tyflier]

E.Crassus--

I just really hope my opinions make sense and dont enrage anyone because these are my opinions not anyone elses and should be treated as such.
Killing animals is something I find dispicable in all cases and to think for commercial reasons someone could kill a living thing with as much right to live as you or I is beyond me, it actually makes me feel physically sick

I find these 2 statements not only extremely contradictory, but just a little disheartening.

In one breath you say that you want your opinions to be treated as such, and without skipping a beat, you refer to other people's opinions as "despicable" and worthy of making you "physically ill". I don't get it...

How would you feel if I said that your last statement makes me physically ill for the sheer lack of logic and respect that it displays?

If you want people to accept your opinions and RESPECT your opinions, it only seems right that you provide the same respect to everyone else. Of course, as I have my entire life, people that don't SHOW respect don't GET respect... :shrugs:

 

[tyflier]

Oh, and...for whatever it might be worth to you, E.Crassus...

Your leather shoes, leather jacket, leather car seat interior, natural fleece pullover, steaks, chicken, bacon, burgers, eggs for breakfast and a myriad of other products that I am POSITIVE you own and/or use regularly are the product of animals being killed for commercial purposes.

It must be horrible to live your life in such a way as to despise yourself, and make yourself sick on such a regular basis...

 

[Roy Munson]

Dean I was merely referring to myself having an inability to kill animals directly, with my own 2 hands.
I think my comments have been a little misinterpreted, needless slaughter is what I disagree with, but even I have to eat to live.

Maybe this is what threw me off:

Killing animals is something I find dispicable in all cases...

You did write "in all cases". You may have used the wrong words, but I don't think I misinterpreted the ones you used...

 

[Eremita]

Somehow, no matter how many people try and fail to rep Tyflier, them high-minded yahoos keep popping up. But don't fret - he never tires!

All goofy interpretations of ethics aside (and Barbara, I did not mean to drag anyone into the very unprofitable realm of philosophy, but since that is where ethics came from, I thought it would help to clarify the meaning of it. Yet, we are an obstinate bunch), what many and perhaps most of the folks here keep wanting to convince me and others of is quite simply that in some sense All Killing Is the Same. And no matter how many times it comes up, we just haven't bought it. Dean is now trying to expand this to Many Sales Are the Same As Killing. In effect, not only does it not matter why you might force yourself to overcome your inherent love of these creatures to kill them, but it also doesn't even matter if you are directly present or involved in the deed.

Your intentions matter in all your actions. Period. Discussing whether your intentions are honorable if you are culling based on beauty is more to the point than claiming that it makes no difference. Next: if you try to expect the best from your customers, that is not poor ethics; it is optimism. However, there have certainly been threads here from people who refused to sell a snake to someone because they sounded like they were not even remotely motivated to provide proper care. I can dredge up some links if you like. So, perhaps it is good and right to draw a line in that realm also.

-Sean

 

[SnakeAround]

Good summary Sean!

 

[E.Crassus]

Maybe this is what threw me off:
You did write "in all cases". You may have used the wrong words, but I don't think I misinterpreted the ones you used...

Well yea im only 18 and passion for something often leaves me missing the point, what i should of put was "In all un needed cases where me, myself and I am involved in killing an animal with my own 2 hands"
think thats cleared that up

 

[E.Crassus]

E.Crassus--


I find these 2 statements not only extremely contradictory, but just a little disheartening.

In one breath you say that you want your opinions to be treated as such, and without skipping a beat, you refer to other people's opinions as "despicable" and worthy of making you "physically ill". I don't get it...

How would you feel if I said that your last statement makes me physically ill for the sheer lack of logic and respect that it displays?

If you want people to accept your opinions and RESPECT your opinions, it only seems right that you provide the same respect to everyone else. Of course, as I have my entire life, people that don't SHOW respect don't GET respect... :shrugs:

I have respect for other peoples beliefs and opinions, I thought this thread was about stating MY opinion? I dont find people that want to cull things dispicable, I find the action such, people can do what they like, its not my place to stop them, but the action itself that i have problems with

 

[E.Crassus]

Oh, and...for whatever it might be worth to you, E.Crassus...

Your leather shoes, leather jacket, leather car seat interior, natural fleece pullover, steaks, chicken, bacon, burgers, eggs for breakfast and a myriad of other products that I am POSITIVE you own and/or use regularly are the product of animals being killed for commercial purposes.

It must be horrible to live your life in such a way as to despise yourself, and make yourself sick on such a regular basis...

Ok I think this point has been bought up by Dean.
I did not explain myself or my opinions fully, sorry Im not the perfect public writer/speaker.
What I do not like is the needless killing of animals, all for the reason it doesnt look right, I am an animal, like every human on earth, and I have to eat, now my diet is not vegan or vegetarian I enjoy burgers as much as anyone else that does. What I could not do is go up to a cow with a knife and slit its throat, im not a blood thursty person which it seems like I would have to put to be logical on here. Yes my car has leather seats, yes I have leather jackets and eat the foods listed above.
But I did not kill these animals myself, that was what I was trying to get at.
I did not post for a long time on here as it is a very sensitive topic and now I have done I wish I hadnt as, as usual, my comments, through my fault, have not been fully explained, and therefore others have decided my comments as foolish and un thought out.
Maybe I just wont bother having an opinion anymore, or just keep things to myself like i think certain other people round here should do, no names mentioned

 

[JoannaD]

Somehow, no matter how many people try and fail to rep Tyflier, them high-minded yahoos keep popping up. But don't fret - he never tires!

All goofy interpretations of ethics aside (and Barbara, I did not mean to drag anyone into the very unprofitable realm of philosophy, but since that is where ethics came from, I thought it would help to clarify the meaning of it. Yet, we are an obstinate bunch), what many and perhaps most of the folks here keep wanting to convince me and others of is quite simply that in some sense All Killing Is the Same. And no matter how many times it comes up, we just haven't bought it. Dean is now trying to expand this to Many Sales Are the Same As Killing. In effect, not only does it not matter why you might force yourself to overcome your inherent love of these creatures to kill them, but it also doesn't even matter if you are directly present or involved in the deed.

Your intentions matter in all your actions. Period. Discussing whether your intentions are honorable if you are culling based on beauty is more to the point than claiming that it makes no difference. Next: if you try to expect the best from your customers, that is not poor ethics; it is optimism. However, there have certainly been threads here from people who refused to sell a snake to someone because they sounded like they were not even remotely motivated to provide proper care. I can dredge up some links if you like. So, perhaps it is good and right to draw a line in that realm also.

-Sean

You obviously don't have kids. Every time my kids break something, do something they were told they shouldn't , lose something, etc., the first words out of their mouth is "but I didn't mean to..." And you know what they didn't. Just like the seller who sells hoping his snakes will get a good life. In the end though the glass is broken or a snake is dead. The intentions might have been good but something bad happened and ultimately it is the child or the seller that is responsible or must claim part of the responsibility. It is their actions that are important since they lead to the consequences not their intentions!

Joanna

 

[kathylove]

"...I wish I hadnt as, as usual, my comments, through my fault, have not been fully explained, and therefore others have decided my comments as foolish and un thought out..." (E. Crassus)

It can be difficult to be articulate on a forum, and to say exactly what you mean. But it is an ability that improves with practice. I think that you will find it a skill well worth having, and you are young enough to have lots of time to develop it. Although I don't necessarily agree with your opinion, I think it is a very good idea for you to hone your written skills here into a great future asset. Much better to practice here than when you are trying to impress your boss that you need a raise, lol!