Culling 'side product' hatchlings

[Roy Munson]

You won't be surprised I think but I hope my fellow breeders would feel that giving a high end non feeder a second chance as a gift/lower priced animal to someone with the time and passion to try to get it to eat, is a nice idea/gesture. To me it would add to your reputation as a breeder... and do you really think that this would occur in amounts that would threaten prices on the market?

I'm unlikely to complete an analysis at any point, but yes, I think the market is affected by this sort of thing. You're thinking of "the market" as being the corn snake market as a whole. I'm thinking of the lav-blood market, the cinder/aneryc market, the golddust-stripe market, etc.. Think about the cinder market. For '06 and '07 the market has been Carol and Rich Z. and their cinder buyers. If there are other sources, I'm unaware of them. But I'll be a seller in the next wave of that market, and Carol and Rich might not like it if I start throwing around free or discounted cinder culls while they're trying to sell top-notch specimens at a reasonable market price. And don't think Carol and Rich won't care, and remember that I won't be the only breeder in the next wave; they won't like it either. If you don't think that reflects real market attitudes, keep in mind that I've been on the receiving end of some sweet deals where discretion concerning publicizing the details was practically a condition of sale.

 

[SnakeAround]

I'm unlikely to complete an analysis at any point, but yes, I think the market is affected by this sort of thing. You're thinking of "the market" as being the corn snake market as a whole. I'm thinking of the lav-blood market, the cinder/aneryc market, the golddust-stripe market, etc.. Think about the cinder market. For '06 and '07 the market has been Carol and Rich Z. and their cinder buyers. If there are other sources, I'm unaware of them. But I'll be a seller in the next wave of that market, and Carol and Rich might not like it if I start throwing around free or discounted cinder culls while they're trying to sell top-notch specimens at a reasonable market price. And don't think Carol and Rich won't care, and remember that I won't be the only breeder in the next wave; they won't like it either. If you don't think that reflects real market attitudes, keep in mind that I've been on the receiving end of some sweet deals where discretion concerning publicizing the details was practically a condition of sale.

But how many really top not notch corns will end up as cull candidates anyway? Not enough to be able to throw them around as you state it.... of course the top notch market is also very small in amounts though. Well, probably you are right but in that case, keep the animal as a pet, give it away to someone who does not breed and/or does not have anything to do with the high end breeders... how big is the change Carol is gonna find out you gave away a blood lav to your neighbours' young kid, starting off in reptile keeping?

 

[Roy Munson]

With high end morphs, there is another solution, one that few breeders consider...

That's a cool idea, but I have to be honest, it's not something I would do. If I remember correctly, your deal is with Joe Pierce, and I'm not in Joe's league by a looooong shot. Your snake must be valuable to him. Being in the very minor leagues, if I hatch a non-feeder that is that valuable to me, I'll be doing everything I can to convert it myself. I don't like dealing with non-feeders, but I've converted a couple in my time.

You are right that the cost and inconvenience of shipping low-end or common morphs might not make sense for either the breeder or the prospective owner. Which animals are "worth saving" is a judgement call, and there are no black or white answers. Each person has to decide where their resources are best used, whether that be their time, their money or their living space. I've decided to use my resources to give problem hatchlings a fighting chance. The healthy offspring won't go begging for homes in any case. The options to breeders don't have to be either "give away" snakes or euthanize them. There are other choices, other arrangements that can benefit breeder, snake and hobbyist, all at the same time. I'd call it a "win-win situation" except I hate that stupid expression! :laugh:

Great points. :cheers:

 

[Roy Munson]

But how many really top not notch corns will end up as cull candidates anyway? Not enough to be able to throw them around as you state it.... of course the top notch market is also very small in amounts though. Well, probably you are right but in that case, keep the animal as a pet, give it away to someone who does not breed and/or does not have anything to do with the high end breeders... how big is the change Carol is gonna find out you gave away a blood lav to your neighbours' young kid, starting off in reptile keeping?

Barbara, you might have missed the part where I said that I don't want to run a snake adoption agency. I don't really know my neighbors or their kids, and I like the arrangement.

 

[tyflier]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Roy Munson again.

Dean, I completely understand what you're saying as regards the high-end non-feeders and market impact. If everyone in this business/hobby were as honest and considerate as you, the "hybrid markers" threads wouldn't exist...:cheers:

Blutengel--

One problem with giving away a high-end non-feeder to a kid starting out is that ultimately, that snake will probably suffer and die. It takes experience to turn around a non-feeder, and most kids and their parents are not going to be able to do it without ALOT of help.

Another problem with it is, if the person you give it to is experienced enough to be successful at turning around the snake and getting him feeding willingly, that person probably has what it takes to be considering breeding, if not now...soon. Market saturation is inevitable with any new morph, but to do so with no profit is VERY business foolish, for yourself, AND your fellow breeders.

Jaxom-

Great post. If two people can work out a situation like that and make it feasible without being a tremendous loss for either party, that's fantastic. If it can be worked out, it is definitely an option I would consider.

However, there would really need to be a LOT of details worked out. And the higher the value of the morph, the more details there would be...

But IF those details can be agreed upon, it's a fantastic idea...

 

[toyah]

Since the food a snake will take is genetically determined to a degree, I'd prefer to buy any snakes from a breeder who culled off non-feeders, not spent ages getting them started. Harsh, but surely for the best in the long run...

 

[SnakeAround]

Blutengel--

One problem with giving away a high-end non-feeder to a kid starting out is that ultimately, that snake will probably suffer and die. It takes experience to turn around a non-feeder, and most kids and their parents are not going to be able to do it without ALOT of help.

Another problem with it is, if the person you give it to is experienced enough to be successful at turning around the snake and getting him feeding willingly, that person probably has what it takes to be considering breeding, if not now...soon. Market saturation is inevitable with any new morph, but to do so with no profit is VERY business foolish, for yourself, AND your fellow breeders.

...

In that case I was thinking of a kinked, but healthy high end morph.... I would not give non feeders to a starter of course :sidestep:

 

[jaxom1957]

If two people can work out a situation like that and make it feasible without being a tremendous loss for either party, that's fantastic. If it can be worked out, it is definitely an option I would consider.

Our agreement was very simple: if the snake was converted to feeding, she would go back to the breeder and I would receive babies from her when bred. If she died, photo proof would be provided to the breeder.

Sadly, the second came to pass this afternoon. I'd successfully fed her twice since she arrived, and she was due to be fed today. When I went to remove her from her viv, I discovered she had passed away. She was active last evening, so her death occurred withing the last twelve hours or so. I've sent email and a photo to the breeder, with my apologies.

The biggest draw back to the arrangement is the grief. Even having her here for one week, I was very fond of her, and wanted very much for her to prosper. I am very sad for her and frustrated that my efforts on her behalf weren't enough. The grief will pass, and I still believe the effort was worth making. I hope this breeder, as well as any other who's read this thread and considered placing nonfeeders with someone willing to try to turn them around, feels the same.

 

[Hypancistrus]

Our agreement was very simple: if the snake was converted to feeding, she would go back to the breeder and I would receive babies from her when bred. If she died, photo proof would be provided to the breeder.

Very sorry for your loss. But... just out of curiosity... how would such an agreement be enforced??

We have all seen how even people we THINK we know (Rich and that fellow that took a whole clutch from him and never paid!!) agree to one thing and then fail to follow through.... :shrugs:

 

[Roy Munson]

Sadly, the second came to pass this afternoon.

Sorry to hear that.

 

[jaxom1957]

Very sorry for your loss. But... just out of curiosity... how would such an agreement be enforced??

We have all seen how even people we THINK we know (Rich and that fellow that took a whole clutch from him and never paid!!) agree to one thing and then fail to follow through....

This was something not often seen anymore, a gentlemen's agreement. I didn't give much thought to how he could enforce it because I never gave any thought to violating it.

Had the snake survived and I'd not returned her, there would have been little Joe could have done to get her back. However, what would I have done with the snake? Were I Joe, I would have publicized far and wide that the snake had, for all intents and purposes, been stolen from me. Who then would have anything to do with me? Who would sell me a snake or buy one from me?

If you look over my posts, one thing should become clear: my reputation matters to me. I am an honorable man, and I have a low tolerance for shame, so I do everything in my power not to attract it to myself. Apparently that was enough for Joe. I do agree with the point you are trying to make: there is too much that can go awry, and a verbal agreement is impossible to enforce. When items or animals of value are involved, it is best for all concerned to get the agreement in writing. I feel honored that Joe didn't find it necessary to do so in this case, but would have signed such a contract without hesitation.

 

[tyflier]

Honesty and integrity are two used that get used alot more than they get shown...which is very unfortunate in this day. If a few more people had a word you could trust, there would be FAR fewer problems...especially between two people who SHOULD have enough in common to be considered "friends".

Jaxom, I'm sorry for the loss. I know it's hard, but at least you tried, and I am sure Joe appreciates every effort you made...

 

[suecornish]

What an individual breeder decides to keep or cull from their own clutches is their own personal business. In the example of jungle corns, if the breeder only wanted to perpetuate the look of a hybrid that showed the characteristics of both the kingsnake and the cornsnake, culling those that too closely resembled either species, that is just fine by me.

There are more than enough normal, amel and anery cornsnakes on the market. My 50 - 75 will not be missed, and my kingsnakes will be well-fed as a bonus.

I haven't voted yet. Susan, two questions - Kingsnake and cornsnakes can interbreed? Do the kingsnakes take f/t after they had hatchlings to eat?

 

[Susan]

Corns and kings (and milks) can interbreed, but usually they have to be "tricked". I've never raised any kingsnakes or hybrids from hatching and all of mine were already on rodents when I got them. I haven't fed my kings any snake hatchlings...yet. But from what I've heard from other breeders, they usually have no trouble going back and forth between rodents and snakes for food. They are basically "garbage disposals" and will eat just about anything. I know my male has tried to eat me as well as my snake bag, and then ate his mouse when he realized everything else was not his dinner.

 

[suecornish]

You know, there is a lot of ethics and morals that go into any type of animal breeding and selling from dog to horses to snakes. Some people never think what they would do if the offspring they are producing to sell are not sellable. How many snake breeders got out of breeding because they could not cull and ended up with more snakes that they could afford to feed.

Reading this thread has helped me. I plan on retireing in nine years and will probably try my hand at snake breeding. Not large scale like some of you but enough to, if nothing else, pay for the snake upkeep. While I would be able to cull out those to far gone to be anything other than kingsnake food, I wonder what I would do with those who are healthy but have some non-life threatening deformity. Sell them half price with the promise not to breed? :shrugs:

And non-feeders - what of those? All these situtations could happen and probably will happen but how I will handle them I will only know when I get there what to do.

Those with experience know what they will do because they are doing it. Those of us with no experience will only know what we'll do when we do it. Reality has a habit of settling in very abruptly and when a newbie finds themselves surrounded with kinks and non-feeders they will gear into action and be suprised by their actions.

After all, look at all the excitment raised by that two-headed snake. What if that snake was culled?

 

[Shade]

IMO, culling due to a defect that would otherwise limit the quality of life the animal has is acceptable. Culling because the animal did not look the way the breeder had intended, or because of a very minor defect (kinked tail that doesn't interfere with digestion and expulsion of waste, for example) is not. It's still a life, and until it starts harming something, it should be treated with respect.

There's always gonna be some kid who wants a pet snake, if you look hard enough.

 

[cornmorphs]

I have only been a snake owner for a little over a month but am already planning on buying more snakes and hopefully attempting to breed them next season.

The one thing i have thought about many times is what to do if i am ever in the position of having 'defect' hatchlings. I am not sure if i could cull them without feeling really bad about it. Obviously if i decide i could not bring myself to cull off any defect babies then i would make the decision not to begin breeding.

Thanks for the poll, will be interesting to see the results in a few days.

:cheers:

most people over here put them in the freezer, but no one will admit it.

 

[tyflier]

most people over here put them in the freezer, but no one will admit it.

It's a small world...happens alot around these parts, too...but no one wants to admit it...

 

[suecornish]

Freezing is inhumane. It's better to CO2 them. Read the thread "Euthanasia Chamber".

 

[tyflier]

Freezing is inhumane. It's better to CO2 them. Read the thread "Euthanasia Chamber".

How do you figure? How, exactly, is it more humane to suffocate an air breathing animal than to allow it to simply fall asleep and never wake up? Unconsciousness through CO2 saturation takes as long if not longer than unconsciousness through freezing of an ectothermic animal. And I don't care what anyone says...choking to death MUST hurt...suffocation cannot possibly be painless, no matter what anyone would like to think. You're brain is active and aware of what is happening until unconsciousness is achieved. Even after unconsciousness IS achieved, brain activity continues for 1 to several minutes.

We aren't talking about mammls or other endotherms, here. We're talking about snakes...ectotherms...unable to produce their own body heat. They fall asleep and never wake up...simple as that. As far as the snake is concerned, it is going into winter brumation, just like any other winter. The only difference is this time it doesn't wake up.

So how is that worse than being conscious and unable to breathe, and feeling your lungs burn from the freezing vapor of CO2 entering them??? I would really like to hear your explanation...

For these very reasons, I do not use a CO2 chamber for my mouse culling. I use cervical dislocation, which immediately ceases all brain function and pain senses, due to a quick severance of the spinal cord...

Just one more thing...have you ever actually USED a CO2 chamber? Regardless...are you aware of how long snakes are able to hold their breath for? Watch your snake when it is relaxed one night...count how many times per minute you see your snake breathe. Then tell me how long you think it would take for that snake to inhale enough CO2 to suffocate and lose consciousness, and eventually die...