Ethics - Leopard Geckos

[Serpwidgets]

Giant x Giant = Super Giant
Mack x Mack = Super Mack

:shrugs:

What do you mean by super giant? Is the super giant even bigger than the giant? Do you also get normals and giants?

Same for the super mack. How do you tell by looking at them which is a mack and which is a super mack?

 

[Joejr14]

You're dodging the question. Not everyone has the room or the time to raise entire clutches. What if the female double clutches, you hatch 50 eggs and you cannot keep all of them?

I could come up with 100 hypothetical situations where you are selling some. (Your wife gets pregnant, you lose your job, your home is destroyed, your state passes a law, yadda.) Don't make me do that, just answer the question: "how do you choose to label them?" :grin01:

Okay okay Mr. Pretzel!

I would label them as "Normals from 'golden okeetee' x normal (possible het golden okeetee)."

 

[Serpwidgets]

I would like to answer your question, Serp. I would label them from "from blah blah blah lines. unproven mutation."

I would do the same. You can bet I wouldn't sell them for $20 each, either. :cheers: (I dunno about $500 though, LOL)

But from what I can see in the stuff you quoted in this thread (I haven't read anything outside of this thread) it seems like he is saying that in not so many words. He says they are unproven and listing them as "hets" with quotes around it, which to me says he's not saying they are actually het, but "for lack of a better term..." which is pretty much what everyone in the hobby is doing with the rest of the jargon, like "codom."

Or is the quote just what he said after being questioned about selling them as hets?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

www.leopardgeckos.com (RT's site)

He doesn't use het in quotations except for in the line I quoted.

Yes, you definitly can tell which is which with the Macks! Super Macks hatch out almost solid, patternless grey! They're pretty neat!

As for the Giants, couldn't answer your question. I've never seen a Super Giant...Just going but what others say (which I guess, at this point isn't a good idea).

 

[Serpwidgets]

Yes, you definitly can tell which is which with the Macks! Super Macks hatch out almost solid, patternless grey! They're pretty neat!

Ok, so the mack gene is codominant to its wild type allele. A mack gecko is not codominant, it is heterozygous.

Also, mack X mack would produce 1/4 normal, 1/2 mack, 1/4 super mack. :cheers:

 

[Serpwidgets]

Heh, the site http://www.leopardgeckos.com/ has been down all day. :sobstory:


Here are a few examples that may or may not be comparable, but food for thought...

What are your feelings on Rich selling anerys and/or hypos het silverqueen?

What about Don's pieds? They are proven heritable but it is still unknown if it is an allele on the diffusion locus. Does this compare to selling "Golden Okeetees" (assuming they prove recessive) without having tested them against the caramel gene?

What about the "Christmas" hypos sold by Gourmet Rodent with that label for years, without having been tested against other hypos?

What about the "Strawberry" hypos that have been sold by Jim at SWR with that label for years, without having been tested against other hypos?

Cubes, anyone? :santa:

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Ok, so the mack gene is codominant to its wild type allele. A mack gecko is not codominant, it is heterozygous.

Also, mack X mack would produce 1/4 normal, 1/2 mack, 1/4 super mack. :cheers:

Ok, Serp...Now you lost me! With %'s in clutches, it's a lot more difficult with Leos since only 2 eggs are laid every 3-6 weeks. However, I do know that Mack x Mack doesn't produce 100% Supers.

 

[South.African]

My fiance and I are building up a Reptile breeding facility in South Africa. We are mainly concentrating on colubrids, leopard geckos and crested geckos.
The reason for the choice in those species began with the versatility you got out of one species of animal. The sad thing is that the reptile industry in South Africa is even in worse shape than in Europe and North America.
I know I might be out of topic but I am just trying to find similar minded people to gain experience from.
The right way that is.

I joined a South African reptile forum recently and am pretty angry at the out come of the whole experience.

I will explain in detail in the next post what my experience was like.

 

[South.African]

South Africa is far behind the rest of the reptile breeding world and only have had 2 leopard gecko breeders ever import morphs into our country. For example the Radar and Mack snow mutations are brand new to us and the Total eclipse mutation is like the Black pearl project for you guys.

I am not new to leopard gecko genetics and have studied and researched what I can from the correct people.

A few months ago I watched most of Matt Baroneks you tube videos on Leopard geckos which taught me a great deal of what the top breeders in our country are hiding from the less experienced and educated.

The way he explains Leopard gecko breeding ethics by test breeding all your animals, avoiding breeding certain strains together and how he explained how negative it could be for a breeder to sell you a Leo without explaining their full genetic composition to you.

The problem I experience is Leopard gecko morphs are extremely difficult to acquire. I am struggling to buy a Bell albino female at the moment lol. Earlier this year I got my second half dozen breeders from the Ron Tremper of South Africa. Firstly I got my Leopard geckos well over priced. For example I paid around 180 dollars for a Hypo Tangerine 50% het for radar. .The Tangerine quality is about a 4/10 quality to the Tangerines you are breeding in the States. It is nowhere near the electric or tornado lines. Anyways the breeder lied to me when he sold me that Leo by saying that if I breed that specific Leopard gecko with any Bell or Bell lined Leopard gecko 50% of the offspring have the probability of hatching out as radars which I found out by researching means my hypo tang has only a 50% chance of carrying the Bell and eclipse gene.
So to cut a long story short whew I joined this local forum I tried to educate anyone interested in breeding leopard geckos that breeding a rainwater and a Bell just ruins the hobby as you guys in America are at least in agreement with. I got verbally attacked and was told by a mod that I don't have a right to tell people what morphs not to breed with other morphs. In short they didn't like the fact that I was trying to teach less e experienced people than me not to make mistakes so early on in their breeding career. I was shocked at their comments and very hurt that people here will cross breed the eclipse and marble eye traits together and don't want correction even if it is done in a mature way. I was even told that the male snow I have is not a snow because I never acquired it from either one of the two breeders that imported the snow line here. The Mack snow line. Now what I have researched is that if your Leo hatches out with white and black bands and not the traditional yellow and black bands it is a snow not a normal.

Am I in the wrong for trying to explain why breeding the 3 albino strains is wrong? What has become of the hobby?I agree it is a money making racket and not about the love of the animals because if more people did it for the love the animals would be cheaper firstly and breeders would care about the genetic strength of their animals. I mean if you have been working hard at producing Mack Raptors it is inexcusable in my opinion to produce anything Bell or rainwater orientated. This is not the case in South Africa. For example breeders see nothing wrong with selling a Tremper hybino het for Bell as a Tremper sunglow. They Dont include the het Bell. What makes it worse is they are reputed here and the herp societies here protect them of all their wrong doings. How do I deal with These genetic scam artists in a mature way? I still have a lot to learn and don't mind admitting it.

 

[Kokopelli]

Hold up,
I have to disagree a bit.

It is true that quite a few Leopard Gecko morphs do not adhere to the classic hereditary "single gene" mechanism(AKA, not Co-dom/Dom/Recessive)- a good number of them is line-bred, polygenic: Tangerine, Super Hypo, Emerine, Jungle etc... BUT, many of them also hail from very solidly based lines- these have been around the block for ages, and usually acquiring a pair will yield babies of the same look.

This is not unique to Leopard gecko morphs... line bred morphs exist in tons of snakes.

The "het" thing is a problem, yes- since if the particular animal does not express the trait, its capabilities of passing on the "right" genes is in question- the term "het" in this case is wrong, but none-visual offspring that hail from a based line does have a good chance to yield the desired results when paired with the right partner.

The RAPTOR project is not "unproven", it never hid behind false statements- RAPTOR stands for Red eyed Albino Patternless Tremper ORange- All of these, save for Tremper, are line-bred.
It is up to the buyer who wishes to get into the project to be aware of the nature of the morph- expecting negative marketing from a breeder about a given project he is dealing with is not very sensible.

Breeders who have no idea what they are doing, and lies, exist anywhere... I am not advocating it, but it's also up to the buyer to learn and be educated on the topic prior to choosing to buy.

Also, I found MACK Snow to act very consistently with the Co-Dom definition- there's a het, and homozygous, consistent Phenotype for each Genotype.

 

[Chip]

Just FYI, this is a 7+ year old argument, unless you were responding to S.A.

 

[Kokopelli]

Oi

 

[South.African]

You guys think that is scary. Visit www.sareptiles.co.za and search for a 2014 Enigma debate: To breed or not to breed. My username is Rabid.Evo8691

South Africa has a limited amount of Leo breeders. Being around 5 "serious" breeders myself included. I am the only breeder that has not made 1 cent profit that has not been reinvested into our facility. I am a waiter by living.

I have been restricted and made a fool of because of my strong ethics against crossing albino strains and breeding Enigmas with such a limited gene pool (illegal to import Eublepharis spp into our country since 2010 when only 1 breeder imported Enigmas into our country before the ban.) The prices are insane for example one of these unethical breeders is selling a W&y redstripe het Bell ph Tremper for 1250 U.S dollars (converted).

They are money hungry, trying to control the market and have tried ruining my name for good and valid points. This hobby makes me sick. Money is meant to come with the passion not vice versa.

It is so bad I bought a Super hypo Tangerine het Bell and Eclipse which turned out to be a pure white and yellow. Fortunately for me I scored but what if the role was reversed and I bought a w&y for 1000 U.S dollars and it ended up just being a C grade Super hypo.

Note all prices are for 1 week hatchlings.

I will not divert from further test breeding and not let a couple of money hungry chancers spoil the love I have for Leos. As such with Ron these power house gods here in South Africa will also be revealed for their true intentions.

If anybody is willing to get into contact as to how I can deal with this situation please contact me on my e mail address [email protected]
The hobby here is scary and peoples facilities are being burnt down here through spite and politics. I just don't want it to cost my wifes life over things that will never change.
Regards
Dylan
Rabid Evolution Reptiles.