F/T vs. Live Debate

[Shiari]

iv been trying to explain for hours that they are in the same order carnivoria and under sub species of the wolves. but seems like no one cares. also i never said it will kill them but that most problems is caused by bad diet from dried food, great post!!!

All carnivores are not created equal. You know what else is listed under order carnivora? Bears. The majority of their diet is actually plant material, which directly contrasts to that of cats which is entirely prey items and wolves are inbetween.

Oh, and by the way, direct quote from you darksmoke:

Dogs have been evolving from millions of years ago but there evolution stoped at wolves, foxes, and other canines. the domestic dog was created by us humans from mix breeding of those canines.

This sentence outright states that dogs come from a mixture of the families under canidae, which means that you have outright stated that dogs were created from mixing wolves, coyotes, foxes and whatnot. And that in turn is so incorrect that it is painful.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Duh what now? Let's not paint all raw feeders in the same stroke, thanks. I do provide vegetable matter for my dog and would never suggest that they cannot or do not digest it, given their long history as scavengers. However, I do not believe that all kibble will kill your pets, or whatever. I have no affiliation with the meat industry, and to be honest, even the most radical raw feeders I know (who feed strictly meat, bone, and organ) have zero affiliation with the meat industry. Again, please bear in mind, not all raw feeders advocate the same things and there are a variety of diets toted on the web, some much more balanced and thoughtful than others. It's difficult to accurately say what "the raw feeders" say... Not everyone that feeds raw is constantly spouting pseudo-science, I promise.

Also, the taxonomy of dogs has been updated and they not an "entirely different species" from wolves - they are classed as a subspecies and the proper scientific name is Canis lupus familiaris and has been since 1993.

Of course not. I'm referring to the BARF advocates that Seamus has gotten his information from, which is a little... off. If the taxonomy has been changed then forgive me, I was going on memory from my textbooks at school, and lord knows they probably haven't been updated since 1893:nyah:

 

[gelshark]

i recently was doing some research on what to feed my new llama, since i do not have access to any scientific journal i came across a great site called youtube and found these gems of a video proof on how to get the healthiest llama for your buck

 

[gelshark]

#1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBuKWv9d8FE

#2http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSdVTPsNhbE

 

[wstphal]

Of course not. I'm referring to the BARF advocates that Seamus has gotten his information from, which is a little... off. If the taxonomy has been changed then forgive me, I was going on memory from my textbooks at school, and lord knows they probably haven't been updated since 1893:nyah:

One almost doesn't need to study the taxonomy. Wolves, coyotes & domestic dogs are all freely interfertile & the resultant pups are all freely interfertile when matured. These matings can & do occur in free-living canines as well as in captive breeding. They can't be any further apart than snakes who intergrade in the wild. That would indicate that their dietary requirements are mighty darn similar. I have read that all 3 have pretty much the same length of intestine & the same absorptive set up in the intestine.

And unlike the members of Felis, who are obligate carnivores indeed, all of the Canis species mentioned above will naturally include some plant & fruit type stuff in their diet. Or our snakes, who are obligate carnivores too. They may get something they need from the gut contents of their prey but they need any plant matter they ingest to be encased in prey animal.

Does this mean that a healthy raw diet for Canis can't be developed? NO, not at all. I think those who care for captive wolves feed a raw diet, IIRC. There are veterinarians who advocate for a proper raw diet (I would assume it includes a little bit of raw plant foods as a wild canine would eat).

We've come a long way from a discussed of feeding live prey to snakes. Actually, I think snake husbandry is kind of like owning a dog or cat who is fed raw whole foods. We do almost no modification, just heat & eat! It's making me wonder if I should convert my cats to a raw diet, or just thaw out some extra mice!:sidestep:

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

One almost doesn't need to study the taxonomy. Wolves, coyotes & domestic dogs are all freely interfertile & the resultant pups are all freely interfertile when matured. These matings can & do occur in free-living canines as well as in captive breeding. They can't be any further apart than snakes who intergrade in the wild. That would indicate that their dietary requirements are mighty darn similar. I have read that all 3 have pretty much the same length of intestine & the same absorptive set up in the intestine.

And unlike the members of Felis, who are obligate carnivores indeed, all of the Canis species mentioned above will naturally include some plant & fruit type stuff in their diet. Or our snakes, who are obligate carnivores too. They may get something they need from the gut contents of their prey but they need any plant matter they ingest to be encased in prey animal.

Does this mean that a healthy raw diet for Canis can't be developed? NO, not at all. I think those who care for captive wolves feed a raw diet, IIRC. There are veterinarians who advocate for a proper raw diet (I would assume it includes a little bit of raw plant foods as a wild canine would eat).

We've come a long way from a discussed of feeding live prey to snakes. Actually, I think snake husbandry is kind of like owning a dog or cat who is fed raw whole foods. We do almost no modification, just heat & eat! It's making me wonder if I should convert my cats to a raw diet, or just thaw out some extra mice!:sidestep:

I have one cat who's always verrry interested when I start thawing mice, and sniffs around feeding bins/tongs a lot. Next time I have a refusal I might offer him the mouse... but put him out on the porch with it, so he doesn't get gore on my carpet uke01:

 

[DarkSmoke]

All carnivores are not created equal. You know what else is listed under order carnivora? Bears. The majority of their diet is actually plant material, which directly contrasts to that of cats which is entirely prey items and wolves are inbetween.

Oh, and by the way, direct quote from you darksmoke:



This sentence outright states that dogs come from a mixture of the families under canidae, which means that you have outright stated that dogs were created from mixing wolves, coyotes, foxes and whatnot. And that in turn is so incorrect that it is painful.

ok i agree and admit that i was mistaken on this part, dogs were evolved from wolves not by cross breeding.

 

[DarkSmoke]

One almost doesn't need to study the taxonomy. Wolves, coyotes & domestic dogs are all freely interfertile & the resultant pups are all freely interfertile when matured. These matings can & do occur in free-living canines as well as in captive breeding. They can't be any further apart than snakes who intergrade in the wild. That would indicate that their dietary requirements are mighty darn similar. I have read that all 3 have pretty much the same length of intestine & the same absorptive set up in the intestine.

And unlike the members of Felis, who are obligate carnivores indeed, all of the Canis species mentioned above will naturally include some plant & fruit type stuff in their diet. Or our snakes, who are obligate carnivores too. They may get something they need from the gut contents of their prey but they need any plant matter they ingest to be encased in prey animal.

Does this mean that a healthy raw diet for Canis can't be developed? NO, not at all. I think those who care for captive wolves feed a raw diet, IIRC. There are veterinarians who advocate for a proper raw diet (I would assume it includes a little bit of raw plant foods as a wild canine would eat).

We've come a long way from a discussed of feeding live prey to snakes. Actually, I think snake husbandry is kind of like owning a dog or cat who is fed raw whole foods. We do almost no modification, just heat & eat! It's making me wonder if I should convert my cats to a raw diet, or just thaw out some extra mice!:sidestep:

i agree with you and thats what i was trying to explain that being carnivores doesn't make them obligate meat eaters but there digestive system is best suited for meat and for little amounts of fruits and veggies as long as its raw. Thats why i say that dried food is bad, first every thing is cooked both the meat and the fruit/veg second they contain some plant material and starches that they don't eat in the wild and is bad for them. raw diets can be created both in meat only and in meat and a little bit of veg/fruit and its always the best way to keep a healthy dog. well i think we came to an agreement? who knows. lol

 

[diamondlil]

The dogs digestive system is made straight, to quickly digest meat and bones so even the way there digestive system is shows they're carnivores unlike our digestive system which shows were omnivores. even their teeth shows they're carnivores unlike ours which show were omnivores.

the thing is this is subject were science won't help, this is a big buisness made by the dog food people.2days before i got him i started reading about them and when i was reading posts and blogs from 10year breeders and such people i was like what are they saying! i never heard of this. in my country its very rare to see raw diets they believe it makes them bloodthirsty animals. But i decided to give it a try since i tough its useless for all these people to lie about it. after a Week feeding him raw meaty bones and other meat there were the efffects : whitened teeth, mouth getting pinkier, doggy smell gone, bad mouth smell gone. I was amazed!!

from my part i dont have more to say im not a scientist nore a vet its just looking at a dog its common sense that they're carnivores. but instead of asking me question i can tell you that there are many vets supporting this and the internet is full of info, if im not wrong it was Dr Ian billinghurst who first started supporting this. as a fact i don't even know how this discussion ended up on dogs since from my original big long post there were maybe 2 sentences concerning dog., anyway thats the way i think it and its by proof so you can do your searches for info like i did,.

Kudos for raw-feeding your dog! Except for when she tries to give me a lamb neck or shinbone to look after, I'm glad I'm raising Rosie on a total RMB diet! My cats also get raw chicken wings and try to steal mice every time I'm thawing a batch.

 

[DarkSmoke]

Kudos for raw-feeding your dog! Except for when she tries to give me a lamb neck or shinbone to look after, I'm glad I'm raising Rosie on a total RMB diet! My cats also get raw chicken wings and try to steal mice every time I'm thawing a batch.

Cheers! glad you agree and you feed them RMB!

 

[diamondlil]

Cheers! glad you agree and you feed them RMB!

Yep, I know it's off topic, but after I read the RMB books it made so much sense. Same as my friend who has 5 ponies out on grass who has other owners asking what else she feeds them, the answer is nothing, they live on grass and a supply of hay in really hard winters, they are healthy as can be.
No supplements, no vitamins, just various meat and bones for Rosie! I won't pretend it's for everyone, she really makes a mess if she has lamb's hearts, but I buy the meat in bulk, freeze it and thaw out every night what she'll eat the next day.

 

[Nroc]

When you feed dogs and cats raw foods, do you clean them up afterwards? I can just see all sorts of raw meat products all over their faces and whatnot...

I wouldn't want that snuggling up to me...

 

[l0ck_0ff]

i have a co2 chamber for killing pinkies. but i havent yet. thats only if i absolutely have to. otherwise f/t for me

 

[starsevol]

i have a co2 chamber for killing pinkies. but i havent yet. thats only if i absolutely have to. otherwise f/t for me

Now you are a responsible and humane keeper. Darksmoke won't serve f/t or humanely fresh killed because it would take alllll the "fun" out of feeding day for him.....

 

[Kali]

Now you are a responsible and humane keeper. Darksmoke won't serve f/t or humanely fresh killed because it would take alllll the "fun" out of feeding day for him.....

Without any doubt at all I'm going to get heat for this... But aren't you beating a dead horse already? He clearly stated his vieuws on this and is not going to change that. You clearly stated your disgust for this (and him) and are not going to change that. I don't see how keeping at it is in *any* way constructive anymore.

Let the thread be a little peacefull now it had taken a turn away from all the animosity.

Please?

 

[diamondlil]

When you feed dogs and cats raw foods, do you clean them up afterwards? I can just see all sorts of raw meat products all over their faces and whatnot...

I wouldn't want that snuggling up to me...

Rosie cleans her face on either a towel or an old throw, it's instinctive behaviour to clean all the blood from their muzzle.

 

[starsevol]

Without any doubt at all I'm going to get heat for this... But aren't you beating a dead horse already? He clearly stated his vieuws on this and is not going to change that. You clearly stated your disgust for this (and him) and are not going to change that. I don't see how keeping at it is in *any* way constructive anymore.

Let the thread be a little peacefull now it had taken a turn away from all the animosity.

Please?

Sorry Kali, but no.
I want everyone to know.....so I will take every opportunity I can find to mention it.
Betsy had no idea earlier. I was glad I could tell her.....

 

[Kali]

Ok, I might not agree, but I understand you have a need to bring it out there.
But it has been repeated several times in this very thread. We get it. People are trying to talk and conversation is very hard like this.
Kind of a shame really...

 

[diamondlil]

Sorry Kali, but no.
I want everyone to know.....so I will take every opportunity I can find to mention it.
Betsy had no idea earlier. I was glad I could tell her.....

I thought the member you keep mentioning has been feeding frozen for a while now?

 

[starsevol]

I thought the member you keep mentioning has been feeding frozen for a while now?

No, fraid not. His baby corn that keeps regurging is on frozen only until it recovers, then it will be back to live.

He has another snake, a ball python, I believe. When he bought it it ate thawed food, but he immediately converted it to live. Said it liked watching it and that it's more "natural". When challenged on how it is uneccessary suffering for the mouse and a risk to the snake he laughed it off and said that it is natural for people to love to watch the kill.
That in China animal cruelty is much worse than what he does (as if that excuses it), and in town grown men like to throw scorpions and tarantulas together and take bets on what will kill what first.

I know his dog is on a raw diet, and applaud it. But he doesnt allow his dog to kill its food, so I can't see why his snake has to.