Getting tired of it...

[tyflier]

I got into snakes because I think they are cool in every aspect of the word. The way they move, the way they eat, the way they live such secretive lives, primarily out of view and out of the way of human contact. The way a snake can never be truly domesticated. Their desire for solitude, their hunting prowess...

I submit that domestication of a species is more determined by generations bred in captivity and selective breeding of that species done by humans, than "tameness." That is why some people are claiming that cornsnakes are nearly, if not already, qualifiable as domesticated.

Nanci

When I think "domesticated", I think reliant upon human interaction for life. Dogs and cats are perfect examples. Even the wiliest of alley cats doesn't survive on natural instinct in the manner of it's wild ancestors anymore. Once they become "wild" cats, they need to devleope new instincts to survive on their own, and many of them never make it to "old age". Most alley cats and stray dogs die much younger than there human-cared-for counter parts.

Yet snakes can escape our homes, and live out their lives just as they would had they never seen the inside of a human's house. Captive bred or wild caught, if a snake, even a cornsnake, escapes out into the wild, they will survive in the same manner as their ancient ancestors and their wild counterparts have for centuries, without a "glitch in their hitch", using innate instincts that have been out-bred from "domesticated" animals. This is, of course, providing the area they escape to is suitable for their survival. A BP isn't going to make it in Alaska...

Perhaps over another couple hundred years of captve breeding, those instincts will be outbred and snakes may become domesticated. But currently there is nothing that a snake needs that it can't still provide for itself in a natural way, should it escape the confines of our homes.

Another topic? :grin01:

 

[tyflier]

And by the way...is it really "tameness" or merely tolerance?

 

[Drizzt80]

Even the wiliest of alley cats doesn't survive on natural instinct in the manner of it's wild ancestors anymore. Once they become "wild" cats, they need to devleope new instincts to survive on their own, and many of them never make it to "old age". Most alley cats and stray dogs die much younger than there human-cared-for counter parts.

Unfortunately, a huge disagreement by me on these two points:
A. Ever been to North Dakota, Wisconsin, South Dakota?!? Huge populations/packs of feral cats and dogs living freely and eating wildlife . . . they all started out as abandoned animals and have easily reverted back to their wild counterparts.

B. Just how long does a wild dog live compared to a domesticated house dog? I'd say that a domesticated dog living a shorter life span because it was now wild would seem about normal. :shrugs:

D80

PS. I still like yellow jello . . . especially with whipped cream.

 

[desertanimal]

Is it that crazy old lady down the street that isnt married?

No, that's just a lesbian. :grin01:

 

[desertanimal]

Unfortunately, a huge disagreement by me on these two points:
A. Ever been to North Dakota, Wisconsin, South Dakota?!? Huge populations/packs of feral cats and dogs living freely and eating wildlife . . . they all started out as abandoned animals and have easily reverted back to their wild counterparts.

B. Just how long does a wild dog live compared to a domesticated house dog? I'd say that a domesticated dog living a shorter life span because it was now wild would seem about normal. :shrugs:

D80

PS. I still like yellow jello . . . especially with whipped cream.

Jello is gross, unless it's only hours old and has been made with alcohol. Then, jello is tolerable.

 

[Rich Z]

Thanks Sean. I doubt that Rich even read my post that SnakeNbake intentionally misrepresented.

Well let me point out the specific comments to which I feel were well said, then...

There isn't a troll or jerk poster out there that can make a new pet owner feel bad quite like an experienced owner/breeder can and this thread proves it.

Do you want to know what made this board great for me? It wasn't the people who left or the people who were serious all the time. It was the ones like Nanci, blckkt, Fender, Tyflier, etc, who took the time to answer my questions even though hundreds of people before me probably asked the same one. It was the people who laughed with me, encouraged me, and voluntarily offered more than enough support that made this site great.

There are going to be times when you hate the people here and think the threads are all stupid. You'll get annoyed by newbies like me but you know what? Deal with it because this site was created just as much for people like me who have no experience as it was for people like you.

Instead of complaining about the loss of the 'greats' why not do what people like Nanci and CornCrazy did and become one? The 'greats' earned their reputation by being people that everyone could go to for help. They don't complain about stupid things like 'boring threads' or 'silly' posters. They treat everyone with respect instead of sitting on a high horse looking down on people while pretending they aren't.

The bottom line is that this is a message board and if you want to make it better, adapt to the changes instead of expecting them to adapt to you.

I hope it makes why I approved of that post a little bit more clear to everyone. Personally, I know for a fact that some people left this site because of an obvious distain for the newbies. All I can say is "more power to you in that ivory tower you are building". :rofl:

 

[snake5007]

Are you threatening me???

I am if you don't change that haircut! :grin01: Go on, there's a free bowl of noodles for you if you do! :grin01:

 

[Phaedra]

I understood Drucifer's post to mean that maybe a lot of the new "pet owners" are the sort who buy snakes for their cool factor rather than through a desire to seriously keep snakes. I may be totally wrong, however.

What really annoyed me when I bought my snake was that some people reacted with obvious disdain, obviously thinking this was just a passing fad that I would lose interested in once the "hey! I have a snake!" factor wore off. I wanted a snake because I'm fascinated by them and have a great respect for them. I don't go around saying "I HAVE A SNAKE, HEY, AREN'T I COOL? HEY YOU, I HAVE A SNAKE!" but when people overhear me talking or somehow find out I have one (I don't shout it about) it's them that react with "wow, cool!" or a shudder. I would never buy a pet that will be with me for the next decade or so to look cool. People who say that are probably just jealous.

 

[Rich Z]

First off, it is pretty darned tough to keep up with this thread after being away for a day! Every page I would read there would be a new one added with posts. But some things, I think DO need to be addressed here.

Hmmm.... were you aware that Rich started this forum because he didn't like someone else's decisions on how they wanted to run their forum? And we all followed because we didn't like how that forum was being run either? Guess what? That forum has also been around longer and *may* have more members. (I didn't look it up) I still believe that place doesn't hold a candle to this site.

Hmm, are you aware that you are completely incorrect? This site (and FaunaClassifieds after first being HerpWantAds) BOTH had their roots in the forum I originally created on my SerpenCo.com website. HerpWantAds was started because I just got tired of people posting their FOR SALE ads on my SerpenCo site. Then FaunaClassifieds resulted when I got tired of people posting NON-HERP classifieds on HerpWantAds. CornSnakes.com got started when the KS discussion forums ALL got shut down and I since Jeff gave no indication that the forums were positively going to be reopened, I decided to take up the slack HERE. In no respect whatsoever were my decisions based on anything concerning how someone was managing their own web site. Matter of fact, Since I believe I had my SerpenCo.com message board up sometime in 1996 (I think), it may even predate the KS forum on cornsnakes anyway.

I think there were plenty of other legitimate reasons behind the new forum. And I think what personal aspects that ARE there run deeper than that. Unfortunately, as I've been saying, a select group of us have been labeled "juvenile" and thus everything we do from here on out must be motivated by something juvenile. It's obvious there are people here that promote the idea that we no longer do anything for "mature" reasons. (But don't worry those accusations don't hurt our reputations apparently.)

Labelling and action as being immature, does not necessarily mean that the person engaging in such actions must be immature, Carol. It simply means what it says. Some otherwise mature individuals engaged in behavior that could be considered as being immature.

With all due respect, I think comparing browsing a new site to "jumping through hoops" a little juvenile. As well as the use of the word "can't" instead of "won't" when discussing keeping up with the American Cornsnake Registry or some of our breeding plans.

Just out of curiosity, are you calling the person who made that statement "jumping through hoops" juvenile, or claiming that making the statement was juvenile? How does "juvenile" differ from "immature"?

Some have reasons for leaving, some have reasons for staying, some have reasons to visit both sites. I agree this conversation has needlessly gotten out of control. If people stopped throwing out the accusatory guesses on why who did what, the site could put things behind it and move forward.

Perhaps your accusations aren't helping things, Carol. Evidently this is a burr under your saddle and you are inclined to let the sores created by it fester, rather than just plucking it out and moving on yourself. You have taken a lot of things I said personally when they were not intended the way you interpreted them. You claim that I have turned a deaf ear on things where it is obvious that your hearing is not all that great yourself. You obviously WANT that chat issue to fester......

 

[El Jefe]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I know that people think snakes are cool. I'm one of those people. Maybe that's why I have sixty+ more of them than you do.

So the more snakes equals the more cooler you think they are, eh? So Dean thinks they are cool. I think they are cooler than Dean and Rich Z must think snakes are the coolest thing in the world...even more so than fancy cars since I know he only has one of them!

 

[Rich Z]

I just think threads like this should be

LOCKED!

Chill out guys, what we don't need is to "section" all the members from newbies to older more experienced members, what we need are some moderators to keep a eye on the forum all the time, i mean rich is a great guy and of course he knows how to mod, but with a forum as successful as this i think a few more mods would be nice..

anyways just my opinion hope i don't get flamed for it lol

Are you certain that moderators is what you all want here? That is a double edged sword, you know. People tend to think that moderators are the answer until they find themselves being moderated. Then it wasn't such a swell idea. Be careful about what you wish for. What you GET may not be what you WANT.

 

[Rich Z]

Seriously, some of those people believe that that incident damaged their entire reputation? "1% of inarguably unacceptable behavior wiped out 99% of good citizenship"? Sorry, but no, I just don't see it. So will anyone here chime in if THEY felt that the people engaged in that chat incident lost their reputation because of it? Maybe it's just me, but I certainly don't see it that way at all. And if anyone had reason to be disgusted and consider the perpetrators of that incident in a permanently unflattering light, I thing that would be me. And that certainly is not the case at al

I for one reading that would think twice about going into chat, as I would feel like I had nothing to contribute. Yes I did enter chat one nite, and sure enough soon as I got there everyone either left or I guess went private. Thats thier perogative, but makes it hard for newbies to get known for who they are..

Sorry if I have made people uncomfortable and not wanting to get to know me, but that again is your perogative, and no I probably won't enter chat again. Not because I dont' want to talk to fellow memebers, but because I felt "chat" was reserved for "long time" members only...take care!

Yes, that definitely was a problem, and I am well aware of that cliquishness taking place in there. Did this event you mention take place before or after the exodus of the "greats" here?

 

[jazzgeek]

No, that's just a lesbian. :grin01:

I'd check her shoes first.

regards,
jazz

 

[Rich Z]

The sad thing is that you still think this is what people wanted. I guess by "unjudging" I mean the situation should be judged and not the people. However, if the people were to be judged, judge them on a bigger track record than a couple of weeks. The fact is, due to the chat incident, you completely turned off your ears to anything anyone had to say about it and read post after post of people saying "I'm not justifying my actions, but we do need some help with the trolls in chat" and time and time again you interpreted these statements as "I'm just trying to justify my bad behavior".

Sorry, but in my opinion you are mistaken. I most certainly did listen to the suggestions made, and gave responses to them as well. Or did you miss that part? Just because someone wants something does not make it feasible. And just in case it escaped your notice, this was in mid September, if I remember correctly, when I am busier than a one armed paper hanger. As soon as I was able to get some free time, I did go on a search and found another chat system to install here in order to break the connection between the two site. Obviously I did not move quick enough and certain individuals felt that I should have abandoned my plans and preparation to do the Mid Atlantic Show and the rest of the care needed for my animals and put this at the topmost priority. Sorry, I guess I just didn't see it that way at all.

I made a few posts commenting on how bad the trolls had got, but apparently I was justifying bad behavior too, even though I had nothing to do with that log. Shortly after I left chat, you made sure to post in front of everyone that people left chat because theirr "knickers were in a knot" over being told to act like adults. This left a lot of us out there that had mantained our adult behavior the entire time with a bad label as "throwing a fit because we had to behave lilke adults" no matter what our reasons for leaving chat were.

Yes, and I believe my response was something on the order of "two wrongs don't make a right". Or am I wrong about that assessment of how to better handle such things? Basically, that entire thread was posted under the presumption that "if the shoe fits, wear it". I believe you made comment that you WANTED me to name names instead. Yet elsewhere I do believe I was soundly bashed for posting that chat log excerpt that DID name names. :crazy02:

I don't think they have lost their "cornsnake" reputation, but I think you and a few others here don't realize the impact you have on how people are viewed here. I'd be more than happy to drop this whole matter except for the fact that many of us that made adult decisions are still being called immature and labeled as throwing a fit. The whole reason I started this post was because people are still making unfair representations that others left because they were told to act like adults in chat. I've talked to the majority of people who have left and I know that's not the case. It's the fact that you wouldn't listen to anything anyone had to say about the matter without your prejudgement of "They are just trying to justify the behavior" in mind.

Maybe some people are just jumping to conclusions based on their interpretations of what they see. Pretty much what I see you doing in your interpretations of how I handled that chat matter, huh? Why is it OK for you to do so, but not for them? As for what those people left are saying, according to you, if there is one rule of thumb that I find most accurate in determining true motives, it is to judge people by what they DO, not what they SAY. This RARELY lets me down. Obviously some people may be employing that same rule of thumb...

Say you had a loyal friend for many years with a special trade that helped you build your house. Maybe they did the landscaping for a couple of years, maybe they repainted your home when you needed it or maybe did some house cleaning just because they liked you, they liked your family, they liked to be in your home, and they liked to help. Perhaps one day your friend comes over in a rage and punches a couple of holes in the wall. Now of course you are going to be upset and bring an end to it as soon as possible. You are more than likely to have a few choice words with your friend that this behavior is unacceptable in your home and they need to leave until they are under control.
Scenario #1. Any good friend is going eventually want to know what made this person act this way. Going over and giving your distraught friend a listening ear and trying to help them out if possible has NOTHING to do with justifying the holes in the wall. By listening to your friend, you may find something legitimate, you may not. You will definitely never hear anything that will justify the holes in the wall, but if you just listen without name calling or judging the person, likely that person will feel bad, apologize and repair your wall.
Scenario #2. Your friend leaves, cools down and then comes back. Every effort they make to contact you gets a "Nothing you can say will justify the holes in my wall, end of discussion", and any action they take after that you make sure you let everyone know that it must be a decision based on immaturity. You let everyone know that they stopped coming to your home because they were "pissed" they weren't allowed to punch holes in the wall. Even though your friend was sorry, he got tired of being unable to communicate with you and left. You announced that by their leaving, they must be going to a place where this is allowed because boy does this person like to put holes in walls.

Interesting.... So tell me Carol, how many of those people who obviously were behaving in an inappropriate manner apologized for doing so? I remember one (1). Maybe I missed more. From the arguments I was receiving, very darn few were truly apologetic about their actions. In fact, they gave the impression that they felt it was their due for a number of reasons. Top most being (1) the trolls MADE them do it, and (2) in their opinion they created the traffic in the chat, so they virtually owned it. Sorry that I didn't see things that way, and to be honest, I still don't. If you feel that is a failing in me "turning off my ears", then so be it. There is a difference in a discussion between not listening to counter arguments and not AGREEING with them

People left chat because the trolls were bringing out things in people nobody was proud of, and got the public "Rich Z" judgment above.

So? And because of that their actions are justified? My judgement was that it is not justified and I requested that it stop. That is not closing my ears, it is not accepting that sort of defense. Obviously those persons MUST agree with my assessment that it was not acceptable if they feel that their reputation has been impinged because of it. So that is MY fault that their behavior needed to be stopped and I had to make that effort to do so? If you want to play that "reputation" card, then what about MINE and that of THIS SITE if I had just ignored it and allowed it to continue without comment? Are they irrelevant in the equation? I was SENT that chat log excerpt by someone who was participating in that chat. It is nothing I snuck around to use against anyone. Just so happens, the reason it was sent turned out to be not the precise way I interpretted what I saw there. But regardless, it was SENT to me for me to do something about. Which I did.

Give yourself more credit. When you make accusations like the one above, it hurts people reputations on this site. I left chat. I don't condone the crap we saw in the log. I didn't get pissed that you asked it to stop. I'm sure the majority of people who left agree with those last three sentences. But it's quite apparent that no one will ever convince you of that. It will be the age old tradition on CS.com to dub thee immature fit throwers.

Sounds a bit theatrical to me, and of course I disagree. I have not seen such taking place, so have you?

And yet each time I see quotes like this:
I, the glutton for punishment, try to point out that this wasn't the case in anyone I know of.

Yes? And..........?

I donno why I've babbled on this far. I guess it struck a nerve that my name was put in the same post with statements such as "throwing a fit" and "immature". If that's what people want to call it. So be it. But for the rest who want my opinion... When you see someone pulling the rug from under people, you're likely to take one foot off the rug yourself.

What rug was pulled out? Again, I think you are blowing this way out of proportion. It was quite simply inappropriate behavior in a chat room. Nothing else. It was not appropriate, in my opinion, and I needed it to stop. Regardless of why anyone felt it WAS appropriate, I disagreed with those arguments, NOT closing my ears to it. An argument repeated over and over again and finally saying "ENOUGH!" is not closing the ears. It is putting an end to an argument that is not acceptable. Otherwise what? I would HAVE to accept the argument or keep on hearing the same thing over and over again for all eternity? Sorry, I just don't agree.

 

[Nanci]

When I think "domesticated", I think reliant upon human interaction for life.

What about horses? Pigs? Chickens? Pigeons? Pigeons have been domesticated for over two thousand years. There are very few truly wild pigeons out there. (Think Rock Doves in Europe.) But look at the zillions of feral pigeons- they are everywhere, and are definately not dependent on humans.

Nanci

 

[snake5007]

What about horses? Pigs? Chickens? Pigeons? Pigeons have been domesticated for over two thousand years. There are very few truly wild pigeons out there. (Think Rock Doves in Europe.) But look at the zillions of feral pigeons- they are everywhere, and are definately not dependent on humans.

Nanci

Really? You should visit Trafalgar square! :grin01:

 

[Nanci]

Opportunistic feeders. Take away the human supplied food- they move on. Kill them off- more take up the slack.

Nanci

 

[tyflier]

What about horses? Pigs? Chickens? Pigeons? Pigeons have been domesticated for over two thousand years. There are very few truly wild pigeons out there. (Think Rock Doves in Europe.) But look at the zillions of feral pigeons- they are everywhere, and are definately not dependent on humans.

Nanci

Horses, pigs, and chickens don't survive very long without human interaction. At least not those that have been domesticated. Horses end up lame from improper foot treatments, pigs end up food for other predators and chickens...well...chickens just die off. This is true in the U.S., to my knowledge. In other parts of the world, it may be different, such as Australia, where those particular animals have very few natural predators, especially when living inland and away from constant water supplies.

Pigeons? Are we talking about cage-kept pigeons of the homing variety? I don't consider them domesticated. They do what comes naturally, and it happens to benefit people. Release them, and they still do what comes naturally. If you don't think their are "wild" pigeons, go for a walk down Central Park West in June.

And I agree that "feral" is merely a domesticatred animal that has reverted back to a wild state, such as goats, dogs, cats, and sometimes pigs. But it usually takes several generations for this occure, doesn't it? The first generation to be released back to the wild after domestication doesn't survive for very long, does it?(and I am honestly asking. I don't claim to know the answers to those questions.)

I don't claim to be an animal husbandry expert. And I certainly don't claim to be "right" and you "wrong". Merely that this is my opinion of the term "domesticated" as it applies to pets. I accept that you may not agree, along with many, many other people. That's OK. We don;t have to agree. You're still my friend .

 

[BeckyG]

Are you certain that moderators is what you all want here? That is a double edged sword, you know. People tend to think that moderators are the answer until they find themselves being moderated. Then it wasn't such a swell idea. Be careful about what you wish for. What you GET may not be what you WANT.

NO! Please no.

I have visited heavily moderated forums, and been a part of heavily moderated e-mail lists and I for one appreciate the freedom we have on this forum. I'd rather put up with the occasional trouble maker or troll and the occasional heated argument than to have everything I want to say be approved or disapproved by someone else. I was on one list in which the moderator read every single post, and if she did not agree with it, she did not post it. So where was the discussion? Where was the exchange of thoughts and ideas? Where was the variety of opinion? Where was the freedom of expression? It just didn't exist.

What did exist was a lot of tension--a lot of wondering "will I get removed and banned for expressing my opinion." You had to agree with the moderator, or your views weren't heard. It wasn't a fun place to be.

I'd hate to see this forum become something like that.

 

[Nanci]

Horses, pigs, and chickens don't survive very long without human interaction. At least not those that have been domesticated.


No, you can't take a pet and let it go and expect it to survive. I'm talking the species as a whole.



Horses end up lame from improper foot treatments,

Wild mustangs?


pigs end up food for other predators


XXXX-load of feral pigs here where I live...


and chickens...well...chickens just die off.

Ever been to Key West? Or, for that matter, High Springs, FL?


Pigeons? Are we talking about cage-kept pigeons of the homing variety?

All the same species- just different breeds or varieties. And yes, escaped homers _may_ naturalize into feral flocks and live out their days in the "wild."


I don't consider them domesticated. They do what comes naturally, and it happens to benefit people. Release them, and they still do what comes naturally. If you don't think their are "wild" pigeons, go for a walk down Central Park West in June.

All were imported to the US as pets/'workers.

And I agree that "feral" is merely a domesticatred animal that has reverted back to a wild state, such as goats, dogs, cats, and sometimes pigs. But it usually takes several generations for this occure, doesn't it? The first generation to be released back to the wild after domestication doesn't survive for very long, does it?(and I am honestly asking. I don't claim to know the answers to those questions.)

I don't know how many generations it takes for a former pet to be considered feral.

I don't claim to be an animal husbandry expert. And I certainly don't claim to be "right" and you "wrong". Merely that this is my opinion of the term "domesticated" as it applies to pets. I accept that you may not agree, along with many, many other people. That's OK. We don;t have to agree. You're still my friend .

And you're still my friend!

Nanci