Glades Herp Farm owners found guilty

[dave partington]

I avoid buying WC due to exploitation but also understand the necessity of it at times. Do it responsibly and legally !

I bought a WC adult female from them, she arrived and took 2 f/t meals, regurged 3 times and died. She also turned into a male during shipping. I do not blame Glades. I blame myself for not having taken the time in advance to learn about gut cleaning/ de-parasitising w/c stock. But I felt s/he was distinctively different looking enough of a locality to work with, to test out for new/unknown recessives, & possibly a carrier of traits worth having in our hobby. One simply never knows what new mutations or morphs may come from w/c stock, from loosening up the overall genomes of w/c localities X other localities, to see what odd/unusual/new looks might pop up. These days the majority of corn hobbyists work with what is known and predictable.
Every morph in our hobby goes back to w/c stock. Unless someone is exposing clutches to cesium?
I feel the words "responsibly" and "exploitation" are subjective. Far more cornsnakes and their entire habitats/ecosystems have been destroyed by bulldozers (and the prevention of fire, which is crucial to maintaining habitat) then have been wild collected.
I'd read somewhere that there would have been only 8 snakes in the case but one of them gave birth to 15 after crossing state lines, though being born in another state (or country) for humans means those babies would be citizens of the state they are born in, not conceived in.

My 2p.

 

[daddio207]

I feel the words "responsibly" and "exploitation" are subjective. Far more cornsnakes and their entire habitats/ecosystems have been destroyed by bulldozers (and the prevention of fire, which is crucial to maintaining habitat) then have been wild collected.

I agree with you. Without going into writing a book on the subject here I just tried to keep it simple although it would be very subjective.

Back in the day before the internet opened up the reptile market to buyers and sellers, Glades Herp, Crutchfield, flukers, NERD amongst others were the go to guys for your herps and yes most of them were WC. and I bought a lot of them.
Some I had luck with treating their parasitic infestations and others I didn't.
Now that captive breeding is so prevalent, I find, for me, it's not worth buying WC UNLESS it's it's something that's going to add to that species genetics or help keep it from extinction or something along that line of thought. The thought of capturing wild caught just to flip just doesn't appeal to me. That said, there is a couple of species I want to work with and I know that I'm going to have to start with WC (that are legally collected)
The herp world owes a lot to the old time reptile importers for the morphs available and what now is captive bred. To bad some went astray.

 

[EVILMORPHGOD]

Wow...... You have just stepped on a Bees NEST Mike!

Not surprising.. I have a fairly certain belief that a reptile distrubiting business from my state has done the same. A bunch of NERD's if you ask me (<--name drop).

I am rather shocked that you have said the above and below in other post. A Bunch of "NERD's"? Well, you capitalized that referring to New England Reptile Distributors, Inc.. That is not the same as saying a bunch of "nerds" Secondly, the " ' " is what possessive? A Reptile distributing company? Clearly you are speaking of NERD.

So NERD has done the same by illegally dealing in Indigos and Rattlesnakes?????

Where oh WHERE did you come up with this one????? Are you kidding me? What you are claiming is VERY SERIOUS by my thoughts. You are clearly stating that MY company does things like this w/o ANY knowledge of the subject and w/o ANYTHING as proof!!!!

I have NEVER sold a Rattlesnake!!!! I do not plan to be selling Rattlesnakes. I do not trade such snakes with Europe, I do not deal in Eastern Indigos. It is shocking to see what you have stated here. How on EARTH did you come up with such and accusation?

What you state in your followup post is even further troubling. You write about my reward for any unknown populations in my state regarding Timber Rattlesnakes. This is your version of proof? We do that to help us and our states search for any other unknown populations of Timber Rattlesnakes. Without going into critical information you are WRONG! This has nothing to do with the trade or the detriment of Timbers here in New England.

NERD is VERY involved with Timber Conservation and EVERYTHING we do is done within the good graces of the local entities involved.

The story about a snake being traced to here with a transmitter is OVER THE TOP..... That accusation is unreal!!!!!!

Due to sensitive aspects of this protected species(Timbers) I will not clarify beyond to stomp this accusation into the dirt. This is not true.

As far as leaving it to the experts and others....... We are actually part of that too.

My hobby is the protection, conservation, study and hope for this species. I spend a great deal of money and effort working on this with a few others that are also incredibly dedicated to the cause.

As far as the Snake Fungus - SFD. I am the actual person that discovered it and pointed it out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHat you have stated is unfounded and you should know your subject before you lay such claims. Remember, I have a company that has been around for nearly 20 years and you are directly attacking my company's reputation stating that we conduct illegal animal trafficking and far worse.

You and I will need to talk to make sure you understand your error to come into a public forum and lash out at NERD stating that we too dabble in such illegal activities.

Kevin

 

[Crotalus3]

Complete Garbage

Not surprising.. I have a fairly certain belief that a reptile distrubiting business from my state has done the same. A bunch of NERD's if you ask me (<--name drop).

michael823, I am the venomous keeper at NERD and you statements are garbage... Yes we keep Venomous. Yes we keep Timbers... Yes we have a $500 reward poster. This is for the location of any New dens. There is only 1 known Den in NH. This is sad. We believe there are others that Fish and Game do not know about. We hope to find new dens and protect them... We work very closely with Fish and Game.. We use the snakes we have for education. Come any sat or sun at 4pm and do the tour. I use Timbers, Wagler's, cobras, puff adders, and other species to educate the public.. We are also permitted to keep these animals and others.We are a well known and established business and to say we would break the law and ruin our name by selling Timbers is crap. Timbers go for $45-$125 or so. We sell snakes that go for Tens of Thousands.. You think we would take a risk of loosing it all for $45?...... Thats Crazy....Feel free to come here anytime on a Sat or Sun and I can Educate you on our Venomous....

 

[Chip]

Welcome to the forum, Kevin and folks from NERD. Sorry your introduction to our community was over this. I don't think anyone but that poster felt the way he did or believed his suggestion. For what it's worth, I'm not even sure that poster believed what he was saying.

I know colubrids aren't your specialty, with all the members of the Python genus you work with, but there's some neat stuff here. I hope you'll consider continuing to make appearances after the dust settles.

 

[rich333]

Kevin,

Off topic.... But...

Was at the tinley show in August. Loved your "table".

Ok.... Back to the regularly scheduled mud slinging...

Carry on.

 

[Michael823]

This is all I'll post.. human nature tends to really flare up at things that are threatening. If my insinuation on a relatively obscure forum was a threat to livelihoods, I would appreciate that my posts be deleted.

However, I can't change my opinion on both my observations, and sources, that at the very least point to a larger issue of the snake-breeding culture, which has put such a materialism on animals, that now rare/endangered species (everywhere.. not just NH) are being pursued (and often collected) by folks looking to make a buck or save one at the expense of nature.

Now, I have the opinion that rewards are in no way something that responsible conservationists should do. This is a forum, and if it's a new welcoming to disagreement in approach for anyone here, I'm not sure where I've been.

I respect that this may not fall on any one particular person. And I have had a great experience with one of the workers there, Mike (black hair and goatee).. I've also had some not so pleasant, typical oafish teenagers who have not impressed me. Point is, I understand that every business has it's share of both good and bad employees. I never once said that it was an establishment that needed to be looked into, or looked down on. But if I'm wrong, I apologize.

And as a future reference, for others.. the whole "oh my God, did you just say that?".. " naw, he didn't know what he was saying" thing is just, well.. ugly. If we're grown men, I can be wrong on a forum, or be free to share my opinion if I have one. Perpetuating what I said 3rd hand, in order to ingraciate with a 3rd party is just unflattering, to me. Don't quote, draw out in no uncertain terms and drag it through the mud, and then act like it was inappropriate to share. If it was of no importance, it should have had no buzz.

That said, if I have to reconcile for my wicked postings, take the lashings and then have a scarlett S tatted on my cheek.. I'm sorry forum.

Aside from that, without sarcasm.. I'm sorry, Kevin. It is not, and was not my intention to slander for the sake of creating a stir. I'm passionate about my beliefs, and if I'm wrong, I hope we can have a cheers to a virtual beer and break virtual bread together.

For the rest of (some) of you.. just come on. Don't be hypocrites. We can compare Obama to Hitler without a single raised eyebrow on here, and yet, I am just some forum jackass who spouts presumptions and misinformation over a post on rewards for rattle snake dens.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. If I'm misinformed, please inform me. But if I'm ever such a hypocrite, to exploit a thread or post as a means of ruining the good credibility of one, by defending another, just to seek some sort of glorified 3rd hand praise and affirmation, please just slap me.

 

[EVILMORPHGOD]

No matter, you dance around and you defer from what you said. In no uncertain terms you refer to NERD, suggest that we too are doing what this entire post was about and clearly put it out there. This was not about your interpretation of what NERD does as far as ethics and breeding mutations. The reward thing....... how does any of this throw us into the same sack as the above post subject?

You were quite clear about your thoughts and you openly aired this fiction as founded.

I am still at a loss over why you did this, your source of fiction and how you determined this by your observations in my Pet Store (not even NERD which is upstairs). You took tid bits of information and surmised enough to openly state that you think NERD also partakes in such illegal activity. To the point that we would poach snakes that we are trying to save and sell them for money?

You sarcasm is falling on my deaf ears. You still don't make an argument to point fingers at NERD and claim we are nefarious.

A plate, a can, a table cloth does not make a restaurant!

Kevin

 

[EVILMORPHGOD]

Kevin,

Off topic.... But...

Was at the tinley show in August. Loved your "table".

Ok.... Back to the regularly scheduled mud slinging...

Carry on.

Thank you very much!!!!!!!

I remember years ago being in Florida - Daytona and having Fish and Wildlife show up at my table and search all of containers under the tables. They were looking for RATTLESNAKES!!!! Someone told them I was evidently selling Rattlesnakes at the table.... a "reliable source" told them.... I do not get what the fascination is with NERD selling Rattlesnakes! Evidently due to the fact that I love them so much people can not understand that I do it because I care about the species.

Kev

 

[Nanci]

I had a dream about rattlesnakes last night, I wonder why?

 

[Michael823]

Egos is what I'm battlimg.. not the truth. Truth is, I have no proof, nor determination to carry this further. I certainly question the reasoning for those ads, which yes, were downstairs, but were (as I interpreted) a part of the business. And if you would like honesty, they read as nothing more than rewards for treasure. If someone finds a den, I'm certain Fish and Game would be the ones to handle it (or other INDEPENDENT organizations). And if people are unaware of any dens, a reward will certainly get them put there looking, prauding and violating nature.

I see my state's wildlife going down the drain, and it can all be blamed on humans invading natural habitats and changing them. If you don't believe that offering a reward for dens, in a state where collection and endangering these animals IS illegal, then I guess I have absolutely no foundation for bringing this up.

I just don't understand the cobra hoods coming out.. honestly. You all know that this site contaons various opinions, observations and interpretations.. we could label quite a bit slanderous. But why was my comment, which was actually just going to pass unnoticed if no one dragged it out, such a 'threat'?

Typically, the longer the explanation or more defensive the response.. well..

But I won't be dragged through an onslaught of egos and all that, just to create this perception that I'm so off base that you all can't possibly find me reasonable. You can use sensationalism about slander, but there is truth to some of my observatiobs and opinions. Otherwise, no one would try to extinguish my opinion. We often ignore rudeness to others quicker than we allow the truth..

Not further speculating, but if the objective now, for having shared my opinions, is now to create a perception of me being the bad guy, when I know in my heart where I'm coming from, than I'll just accept it. If it ain't true, it ain't true.

And there is nothing that I could say, even if I was correct in my suspicions over those signs. People convince themselves in ways that I can't. But, as a person, I have no shame in my judgements and gut feelings.. those reward signs for the dens came to mind when I read this article. If I brought it up in a thread about Christmas shopping, it would be an unfounded comparison. But, even if I'm completely misreading the intentions of those signs, there is a founded comparison to be made, about the plundering of nature at the expense of the world we give future generations.

So, yeah, call me guilty.. you may have the most beautiful, well taken care of, friendliest business in the world. And I may not have a person in the world who agrees. But I think it's as much of the world that I live in as you all, and I'll proudly speak up for a perceived injustice that can't speak up for itself and be wrong, before I go along with the Okey Dokes and hand shakers to feel comfortable.

We expect it of our politicians, to be able to use personal judgement and integrity in helping the greater cause, and not accepting smiles, handshakes and business cards just to feel content.. yet, what do we as humans always do in our own constituency.. take the easy, non-speculative approach, call the speaker a conspiracy theorist, and go back to business as usual. It's apparent my opinion was stupid, ignorant, far from the truth and a threat to the very fabric of our entire hobby. And it's apparent that there is NO statement that will take out these claws anyhow. It's a tyoical mob scene, in which you've got the town holding torches to me in a corner, and I'm just hoping I float when you test me for being a witch.

 

[rich333]

Kevin,

Again.... Off topic.....

The "calico" dwarf retic was out of this world HOT!!!

An incredible animal for sure!

Actually... Because of this animal...I was unable to view all you were offering! LoL!!

Just couldn't seem to take my eyes off the retic!

Kudos to the NERD group for a fantastic bunch of animals!

 

[EVILMORPHGOD]

This is RIDICULOUS

Egos is what I'm battlimg.. not the truth. Truth is, I have no proof, nor determination to carry this further. I certainly question the reasoning for those ads, which yes, were downstairs, but were (as I interpreted) a part of the business. And if you would like honesty, they read as nothing more than rewards for treasure. If someone finds a den, I'm certain Fish and Game would be the ones to handle it (or other INDEPENDENT organizations). And if people are unaware of any dens, a reward will certainly get them put there looking, prauding and violating nature.

I see my state's wildlife going down the drain, and it can all be blamed on humans invading natural habitats and changing them. If you don't believe that offering a reward for dens, in a state where collection and endangering these animals IS illegal, then I guess I have absolutely no foundation for bringing this up.

I just don't understand the cobra hoods coming out.. honestly. You all know that this site contaons various opinions, observations and interpretations.. we could label quite a bit slanderous. But why was my comment, which was actually just going to pass unnoticed if no one dragged it out, such a 'threat'?

Typically, the longer the explanation or more defensive the response.. well..

But I won't be dragged through an onslaught of egos and all that, just to create this perception that I'm so off base that you all can't possibly find me reasonable. You can use sensationalism about slander, but there is truth to some of my observatiobs and opinions. Otherwise, no one would try to extinguish my opinion. We often ignore rudeness to others quicker than we allow the truth..

Not further speculating, but if the objective now, for having shared my opinions, is now to create a perception of me being the bad guy, when I know in my heart where I'm coming from, than I'll just accept it. If it ain't true, it ain't true.

And there is nothing that I could say, even if I was correct in my suspicions over those signs. People convince themselves in ways that I can't. But, as a person, I have no shame in my judgements and gut feelings.. those reward signs for the dens came to mind when I read this article. If I brought it up in a thread about Christmas shopping, it would be an unfounded comparison. But, even if I'm completely misreading the intentions of those signs, there is a founded comparison to be made, about the plundering of nature at the expense of the world we give future generations.

So, yeah, call me guilty.. you may have the most beautiful, well taken care of, friendliest business in the world. And I may not have a person in the world who agrees. But I think it's as much of the world that I live in as you all, and I'll proudly speak up for a perceived injustice that can't speak up for itself and be wrong, before I go along with the Okey Dokes and hand shakers to feel comfortable.

We expect it of our politicians, to be able to use personal judgement and integrity in helping the greater cause, and not accepting smiles, handshakes and business cards just to feel content.. yet, what do we as humans always do in our own constituency.. take the easy, non-speculative approach, call the speaker a conspiracy theorist, and go back to business as usual. It's apparent my opinion was stupid, ignorant, far from the truth and a threat to the very fabric of our entire hobby. And it's apparent that there is NO statement that will take out these claws anyhow. It's a tyoical mob scene, in which you've got the town holding torches to me in a corner, and I'm just hoping I float when you test me for being a witch.

Michael? Are we speaking the same language here?

You are dancing around and saying literally NOTHING. You made ACCUSATIONS....... PERIOD. Now you bible about non-sense that makes no sense.

You have pointed a very scraggly hand of injustice towards NERD and your response to my need for clarification is to dance around saying literally NOTHING.

If you base this on me having a reward for Timber dens then you are completely unsound in your avenues of logic. I'll tell you one thing, I am fully ingrained in Timber research/conservation and I will not explain what exactly we do regarding that. Your random babble about it does not expalin a single thing.

Michael, lets get back to the point shall we/ I was brought here by another member that told me I was being accused of being some kind of animal smuggler, breaking laws, dealing on the black market, stealing snakes from study sites.... You know, things that have got some other people in legal nightmares. You decided to include my company and its reputation with your version of "inside information".

Please, let's talk about what you claimed and more importantly, how did you come to decide this was a good place to CLEARLY STATE FALSE ACCUSATIONS about NERD?

So, if I saw you in public doing something that I did not agree with... I could then invent a story after I assumed what type of person you are?

Are you kidding me?

Your apology.... if you even call that one...... is POINTLESS....... it says nothing. Hmmm should I go through these forums and deem what you do based on your post and how others react to you? As far as humans wreaking havoc on the Environment as part of your argument.....

Well, leeches do it, lampreys do it, Morays kind of do it...... Michael, ? Do I need to say it?

EMG

EMG

 

[EVILMORPHGOD]

Rich... you are speaking of the COW Retic

Kevin,

Again.... Off topic.....

The "calico" dwarf retic was out of this world HOT!!!

An incredible animal for sure!

Actually... Because of this animal...I was unable to view all you were offering! LoL!!

Just couldn't seem to take my eyes off the retic!

Kudos to the NERD group for a fantastic bunch of animals!

Yes...that is actually not a Calico at all. It is a genetic Paradox Blue Eyed Leucistic Dwarf Retic..... A compound Heterozygous expression of the Orange Ghost Stripe The Phantom Stripe and Golden Child thrown on to create the black blotches.

You know, if I would only breed and sell some of those I wouldn't have to think of ways to smuggle black market timbers into Europe for what, $900.00( I am not sure I believe that actual price)! Plus...I need to breed and sell some snakes so I can take a course on how to actually get snakes out of this country and into Europe while evading the very finite eye of the TSA.

Boy, this story is lovely.

K

 

[EVILMORPHGOD]

Yes, Michael....

To imply NERD may be involved with the illegal possession, transportation, propogation etc. on a public forum based on your belief that it is so is pretty slanderous. Whether or not it's true saying something like that based just on feelings...JMHO uncalled for man, it's alright to dislike them for what you perceive them to be, but to imply they're breaking law is just hearsay, rumor, gossip bs. I don't know them, and I don't approve of folks breaking the laws either, but nothing ever good comes from spreading rumors without truth or proof.

You based these accusations on speculation?

WOW. That non-sense about egos? What are you even talking about?

EMG

 

[Nanci]

Okay, so I'm pretty sure Rich Z is not going to think this is the place that this kind of subject ought to be discussed- please correct me if I'm wrong, Rich Z. So everyone has had their say- I think Kevin has explained the "rewards for dens" flyers to everyone's satisfaction except perhaps Michael- and if he chooses to believe that explanation or not- that's up to Michael.

I'm suggesting that if people want a Q & A about NERD's rattlesnake conservation interests or anything else, without any more personal back and forth (while not making light of the accusations- just saying that I don't think the site owner is going to allow more discussion along those lines) that is fine.

Thank you for your input, Kevin & Crotalus3. (Blue text denotes me speaking as a moderator of this site, with no personal opinion expressed).

 

[rich333]

Yes...that is actually not a Calico at all. It is a genetic Paradox Blue Eyed Leucistic Dwarf Retic..... A compound Heterozygous expression of the Orange Ghost Stripe The Phantom Stripe and Golden Child thrown on to create the black blotches.

You know, if I would only breed and sell some of those I wouldn't have to think of ways to smuggle black market timbers into Europe for what, $900.00( I am not sure I believe that actual price)! Plus...I need to breed and sell some snakes so I can take a course on how to actually get snakes out of this country and into Europe while evading the very finite eye of the TSA.

Boy, this story is lovely.

K

Kevin,

Yeah! Wasn't sure what to call it! Calico just seemed the best way to describe what I remember seeing.... Without the knowledge of the genetic make-up.

Somewhat resembles what is called a "palmetto" here in the colubrid world.
( I'm certain you are aware of this animal.)

 

[Nanci]

Yes...that is actually not a Calico at all. It is a genetic Paradox Blue Eyed Leucistic Dwarf Retic..... A compound Heterozygous expression of the Orange Ghost Stripe The Phantom Stripe and Golden Child thrown on to create the black blotches.

Oh how I loved that snake! You might remember me- I'm the one who slung the big male over my shoulders and ran out and was stopped by security guards with tasers. Oh wait- that was just my imagination! ;-)

I really loved how he was so gentle, even with all the hundreds of people hovering over him, petting him, drooling on him. He was the highlight of Tinley, for me.

 

[Michael823]

I'm satisfied with the explanation, and I'm done. I think the larger issue is neglected, but I would be happy to have this conversation end, because this is not a healthy discussion, and there is no level in which I could be a little right, or admit to being a little wrong, and still be part of the discussion.

But before I leave this thread, I'll say my only peace, my opinion.. I've purchased reptiles there even after seeing those signs. And it's not like I grabbed a microphone and started spouting.. my insinuation may have sounded bold, and I do apologize for that. Sincerely. But I have such a disdain for any community which gangs up on someone for sharing an opinion, that I continued in a not-so appropriate way. All it does is justify the opinion to that person.

But some people can be so unwilling to be a little wrong, or allow someone to be a little right, that we end up with this.

Apologies fuel the ego of any unjust man that hears it, but it would be unjust of me to not apologize for the sake of those. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for using the internet to share an opinion that could not be proven. I'm sorry that I hijacked the thread. I'm sorry Kevin, if you take personally what I do not wish to be personal. I apologize for letting my ego interrupt the better part of me, which just would have kept low and not responded back at all... basically, I take accountibility for this one. I have the power to not stir up negativity, and to create a positive view of people, and I chose skepticism and doubt. Then let the remarks of others reingage me into a conversation I'd rather have just avoided.. for ALL this, I'm sorry.

 

[EVILMORPHGOD]

Ok Michael. Thank you, just remember opinions and what you said are different. What you said was not stated as an opinion... it's like saying Charles Manson is kind of not a murderer.

If you look at the 'reward' poster you will also notice all of the other things about it is illegal to kill, hurt or take this Endangered Species. Then we have all the stuff about Rattlesnake Roundups and what harm they really cause. The entire area has that stuff up and how you must have a permit to have Venomous Species and we use them for education..... all that stuff. It is sad that you somehow were able to take a negative out of all this attempt to educate.

I am reactive because you were so off base and was rather shocked to even see it posted.

Thank you - - Kevin