Golddust X Creamsicle

[Tara80]

I think we know Walter. Amelanism is a trait found in all sorts of species (albino).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelanism

What people are referring to here, is an amelanistic cornsnakes, which has never had a trade name applied (or a generally accepted one) to it other than "amel". Thus when people use the term 'amel cornsnake' they are referring to a pure cornsnake exhibiting amelanism, because that's the only name to refer to it as. I would imagine that almost everyone here, with a basic knowledge of cornsnakes understands this; and what the terminology use means.
The same applies to an 'Anery Cornsnake'. Anerythristic works the same way. Charcoal is also "Anerythristic" but ... hey, we've got a name for it. (it just resides on a separate locus)

We are not talking multi-species genetics here when the term amel cornsnake is used imo, it's just reference to a plain 'amel cornsnake'.
(creamsicle is a trade name for a snake of that species lacking melanin consequently, cornsnakes do not have such a thing)

 

[Walter Smith]

Still, I consider someone selling a creamsicle as an amel very unethical.
They are not interchangable.

No where in this entire thread have I mentioned or suggested selling Creamsicles as Amels :shrugs:

I'm just simply, well thought it was simply, :headbang: trying to say that a Creamsicle IS a form/variation of Amelanism........in short AMEL.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Walter Smith]

Thank You Tara.
Taken from the link Tara provided:

Amelanism (also known as amelanosis) is a pigmentation abnormality characterized by the lack of pigments called melanins, commonly associated with a genetic loss of tyrosinase function. Amelanism can affect fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals including humans. The appearance of an amelanistic animal depends on the remaining non-melanin pigments.

What's most important when speaking of "Creamsilces", which falls in this catagory, is what I highlighted in red.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[dave partington]

Posts 24 & 30 on this (9 year old) thread may be enlightening.

Post 13 on this 8 year old thread.

And the 2002 version of this thread

and more...

Thanks for sharing the term "amel trait".

This post has some amusing remarks which could be applied to the c-sicle.

Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

 

[Mark Dwight]

Sorry, but I've got to side with Walter on this one.

Amelanism is a genetic trait, REGARDLESS of what the gene is exhibited within concerning the species, genera, hybrid, intergrade, or whatever. "Amel" is just short hand in the context of corn snakes for "Amelanistic Corn Snake". Just as "Amel" in the context of Burmese Pythons would indicate an "Amelanistic Burmese Python.

"Amel" by itself doesn't indicate anything pure or impure, and actually nothing else, for that matter, about the animal itself that the genetic trait exhibits itself within.

In my opinion, of course.

Yes.

Amelanistic is a cover all term for any gene that removes all melanin. There are many amel genes in the reptile world. ANY reptile that lacks all melanin can be called a amel no matter if it is a hybrid or not and no matter which form of amel gene they have. For example a beast corn that has two copies of a amelanistic gene is a AMEL beast. A jungle corn with no melanin is a AMEL jungle. And a creamsicle is a AMEL corn x emoryi (rootbeer.)

Walter is 100% correct.

 

[airenlow]

Corn site...corn genetics section. They will not get Amel corns from this pairing.

Again .

 

[Mark Dwight]

Again .

I must defend Walter here because words are being put in his mouth. Walter never said you will get amel corn snakes. He said you will get a "AMEL variation" and "AMEL rootbeers." And AGAIN he is 100% correct.

 

[airenlow]

And were we wrong for saying they would get creams?

 

[Mark Dwight]

And were we wrong for saying they would get creams?

Yeah, Creamsicle.......

No matter how many times you say Creamsicle, it's still a variation of AMEL



Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Correct!

 

[dave partington]

Amelanistic is a cover all term for any gene that removes all melanin. There are many amel genes in the reptile world. ANY reptile that lacks all melanin can be called a amel no matter if it is a hybrid or not and no matter which form of amel gene they have. For example a beast corn that has two copies of a amelanistic gene is a AMEL beast. A jungle corn with no melanin is a AMEL jungle. And a creamsicle is a AMEL corn x emoryi (rootbeer.)

This is excellent Mark, thanks.

Again .

When I bred a caramel amel anery X cremesicle, many amels hatched.Only 75% though. The cremesicle came from linebred background. And amazingly, they were all cremesicles. :shrugs:

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Creamsicle is a type of amel, yes, but these babies being discussed in this thread need to be labeled as Creamsicles. Yes, they have no melanin which means they are amelanistic, but simply calling them "amels" can be confusing.

To the average joe, the term "amel" means an amelanistic/albino corn snake, within the scope of corn snake purchasing. These need to have the proper name of creamsicle applied, so that the average joe knows they are not just typical amels.

They are hybrids, we as responsible breeders need to make sure the people purchasing them are fully informed. Just calling them "amel" and not noting that they are creamsicles/hybrids is not an ethical way of doing things.

 

[bitsy]

If some perfectly reputable breeders are selling hybrids honestly labelling them "Amel", under the impression that all buyers will automatically know they're meaning it as a technical term for the colour instead of an expression of ancestry, then we might as well all go home.

 

[Tara80]

If some perfectly reputable breeders are selling hybrids honestly labelling them "Amel", under the impression that all buyers will automatically know they're meaning it as a technical term for the colour instead of an expression of ancestry, then we might as well all go home.

Exactly. I think this is what most were trying to say.
The majority of people know and/or understand the terminology of what amelanistic represents. It was a silly thing to make a big deal about imo.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

If some perfectly reputable breeders are selling hybrids honestly labeling them "Amel", under the impression that all buyers will automatically know they're meaning it as a technical term for the colour instead of an expression of ancestry, then we might as well all go home.

Exactly. I think this is what most were trying to say.
The majority of people know and/or understand the terminology of what amelanistic represents. It was a silly thing to make a big deal about imo.

Yes on both accounts. That is hitting the nail right on the head.

 

[bitsy]

Exactly. I think this is what most were trying to say.
The majority of people know and/or understand the terminology of what amelanistic represents. It was a silly thing to make a big deal about imo.

If a small number of breeders/sellers have quietly decided that the term "Creamsicle" is now redundant, on balance, I'd rather have it out in the open.

 

[dave partington]

If some perfectly reputable breeders are selling hybrids honestly labelling them "Amel", under the impression that all buyers will automatically know they're meaning it as a technical term for the colour instead of an expression of ancestry, then we might as well all go home.

I ran into this exact situation this year at an expo, there was a table with some corns on one side, cremes on the other side. There was a corn I really liked the looks of, and after ten minutes of convo with the breeder, he mentioned the corn I was interested in (good color, unusual pattern), was "from the same clutch as this cremesicle" (he picked one up from the other side of the table). Needless to say, I did not bring home that labeled cornsnake.

Asking LOTS of the right questions is always important

 

[Mark Dwight]

If a small number of breeders/sellers have quietly decided that the term "Creamsicle" is now redundant, on balance, I'd rather have it out in the open.

Who are these breeders that have decided quietly that Creamsicle is "redundant?" Who is labeling creams as just amel corn snakes? Where are you guys coming up with this stuff?
It's obvious many of you are missing the point of what Walter, Rich Z and myself are saying.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Who are these breeders that have decided quietly that Creamsicle is "redundant?" Who is labeling creams as just amel corn snakes? Where are you guys coming up with this stuff?
It's obvious many of you are missing the point of what Walter, Rich Z and myself are saying.

It's obvious you are missing the point of what we are saying.

We are making a general statement toward the labeling of creamsicles.

I ran into this exact situation this year at an expo, there was a table with some corns on one side, cremes on the other side. There was a corn I really liked the looks of, and after ten minutes of convo with the breeder, he mentioned the corn I was interested in (good color, unusual pattern), was "from the same clutch as this cremesicle" (he picked one up from the other side of the table). Needless to say, I did not bring home that labeled cornsnake.

Asking LOTS of the right questions is always important

I have ran into this as well. It's happened more than once at local expo. Cream crosses being labelled as typical amels with no mention of the creamsicle lineage.

 

[Tara80]

Who are these breeders that have decided quietly that Creamsicle is "redundant?" Who is labeling creams as just amel corn snakes? Where are you guys coming up with this stuff?
It's obvious many of you are missing the point of what Walter, Rich Z and myself are saying.

Actually, my good sir, YOU are missing the point by bringing the definition of Amelanistic into this discussion to begin with. That wasn't the topic what-so-ever but was made to be so by a clash of personalities, it seems.
As I said before, most people here know and understand the definition of "Amelanistic". End of story. What was I missing there?

 

[Mark Dwight]

No where in this entire thread have I mentioned or suggested selling Creamsicles as Amels :shrugs:


Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

But I imagined you did and that makes you a bad bad unethical breeder.

And because I imagined you said something you didn't I now think we need to have a discussion on the proper way to label Creamsicles. :roflmao: