Hognose owners?

[KJUN]

I meant PPA + Hypo...not PPH = Hypo. Sorry. Didn't hit shift. The images I have seen belong to someone else. I can't repost them. Email me privately, and I will give you his name. If the large breeder (Re: Leucistic hognose) is the one i think it might me, he had OTHER reasons (as I'm sure you know if it is the same guy) to not put up such a large fight. That shouldn't be brought up in details here, and you know why if you know the situation I am referring to.

On the re-importation, they would still technically be Lacey Act viiolations although it may be hard to enforce in that situation. Of course, depending on how MUCH they wanted to spend on testing it. I'm sure they could find enough similarities to convince the right group of people is is STILL decended from an illegal animal. It makes you wonder - is the USFWS going to allow the importation just to confiscate them when they hit American soil? LOL.

 

[FloridaHogs]

Here is a pic of the leucy western that was sent to me from the Colorado Zoo when I inquired about these animals last year (I think)

 

[Chip]

You mean to tell me a Colorado zoo has one (some)!?! Cheyenne Mtn, Denver Zoo, Pueblo, where?

 

[FloridaHogs]

I would have to dig through some old emails to find that. I know the gentleman told me they were not on display for the public, but kept in back.

 

[FloridaHogs]

Found it!!! Here is what the guy said.....and it was in Sept 2005 when I inquired....man time flies!!!

"Denver Zoo received snakes from a confiscation two years ago which included a leucistic hognose snake. The attached photo shows the snake shortly after we received it. (Although has grown since the photo was taken.) That male snake became the property of the Denver Zoo as part of the legal dispositions by the court. Although the snake is not on public exhibit, we do still have that snake in our collection. "

That would make the confiscation in 2003.

 

[DeadMouse]

And for anybody wanting to get the real story about the leucistics from the man who was the epicenter of it all, read this: Fauna Classifieds: Leucistic W. Hognose

 

[Chip]

Yeah, I read that searching for leucistics. Almost cryptic.

 

[Chip]

Okay, my albinos are being shipped today. Problem is, I can't find any other morphs! I'd prefer not to wait until 2009. If anyone is or knows a reputable breeder, I'd be much obliged. Thanks.

 

[KJUN]

Okay, my albinos are being shipped today. Problem is, I can't find any other morphs! I'd prefer not to wait until 2009. If anyone is or knows a reputable breeder, I'd be much obliged. Thanks.

I've already placed deposits with people for 2009 animals. At this point, "left overs" is all you seem able to find. The best hogs seem to sell FAST....hence the advance deposit needs.

 

[Chip]

I got the albinos today. Took some pics, but left my camera at work; try to get 'em uploaded tomorrow. I always shrug when I hear "unrelated" for same age hatchlings, but these two look quite different. The male is more orange, a bit larger and the female more red. I don't usually offer food to new arrivals, but it was feeding day, so I threw in a pink for each a few hours after putting them in their new homes, both ate frozen/thawed right away.
The search for female morphs continues.

 

[Chip]

Well, I couldn't wait. I had to run back to the store and check flexwatt (had a cage "burn" today! Had to go back and check temps so I could sleep tonight.) so while I was there, snapped a few pics.

Female:

Male:

Normal:

 

[Chip]

Sorry to keep on with the genetics questions, but I'm just not clear on a few things. If I get a pair of het axanthics, and crossed the male with a visual albino; wouldn't I get all visually normals that would be 50% het for snow (unless the axanthic was het albino)? The hognose info seems different than the corn punnet squares that I'm accustomed to. I see ads for double het for snow, etc., that no one would even bother mentioning if the animal was a corn. And is axanthic similar to anery? Is albino techincally amel?

 

[KJUN]

Sorry to keep on with the genetics questions, but I'm just not clear on a few things. If I get a pair of het axanthics, and crossed the male with a visual albino; wouldn't I get all visually normals that would be 50% het for snow (unless the axanthic was het albino)? The hognose info seems different than the corn punnet squares that I'm accustomed to. I see ads for double het for snow, etc., that no one would even bother mentioning if the animal was a corn. And is axanthic similar to anery? Is albino techincally amel?

For all practiocal purposes, axanthics and anerythristics can be two terms that are used almost interchangeably in snakes by hobbyists. Search out the old posts on technical differences if you care, but they are used for pretty much the same mutation in snakes based on if normals usually have more red or more yellow. In essence, use the "anerythristic" option instead of axanthic in any cornsnake progeny predictor.

If your bred a het axanthic to an albino (which is interchangeable with the term "amelanistic" for all practical purposes), all of the babies would be "het for albino and possible het for axanthic." So, yes: 50% would be het for albino and 50% would be het for "snow" since snows are albino axanthics. Either way, all of the babies would be normal looking as long as there are no surprise hets running around.

The reason you see people mentioning the hets and possible hets in hognose is because they are worth a lot more money. A normal corn het for snow is worth (at most) a couple dollars more than a regular normal non-het; however, a normal het snow hognose is worth many hundreds more than a normal hognose non-het. Same punnet square - different market values......lol.

 

[Chip]

Hmm, so it might not be so wise to go that route, bein' I'd have to "test" every single hatchling 2-3 years down the road. Visuals of anything but albino are so damn pricey, still! Even co-dom morphs. I see "yellows" and "greens" that look pretty much identical to my normals to me. Does $1,500 pr./$1,000 for lone female sound reasonable for het axanthics?

 

[Nanci]

Have you talked to Chad Fuchs to see what he has?

 

[DeadMouse]

Hmm, so it might not be so wise to go that route, bein' I'd have to "test" every single hatchling 2-3 years down the road.

Well, that's the problem. Dealing with hets and possible hets is definitely a cheap alternative but a long term project that may or may not even prove out. By the time you get into the morph game anyways, there's already a long line of people that have already been there and done that. That's why you have to have a long term plan instead of a quick fix short term plan and work with the animal you choose simply because you love working with them. Then the money factor, which is still a big deal, doesn't matter as much because you'll have the satisfaction of producing your very own morphs.

Visuals of anything but albino are so damn pricey, still! Even co-dom morphs.

What other co-dom morphs are you referring to? The only co-dom hognose morph I know of is the Anaconda. And yes, like I mentioned before, all hognose morphs other than the albinos are still in the $1k+ range. But look at it this way, by the time you buy that pink pastel or axanthic or anaconda hognose, you'll be paying a significant amount less than people such as myself have paid. Already this year, the price of axanthics have dropped 25% from what we paid for our pair last year. Talk about taking a hit on the chin considering our female still has another good year to go before we decide to breed her. By that time, they might have dropped another 25% with enough axanthics out in the market making it difficult to even sell my own :shrugs: But that's the nature of this game, unless you get extremely lucky like Brent did in producing the Anacondas by a mere fluke of luck. Watch the price of Anacondas fall sharply by next year!

I see "yellows" and "greens" that look pretty much identical to my normals to me.

While I agree that sometimes people seem to see more than what is there, especially when it comes to adding value to animal, if you are judging these animals based on shoddy online photographs, that might be part of the problem too. And I guess another problem is, what do you consider to be "normal"? There are definitely animals that exhibit more yellow or more green or more red than many others and that does make that animal exceptional enough to consider that if it is a passed down genetic trait that indeed it is a type of color morph and should be considered as such. But again, if someone calls it a yellow and you just don't see it, it's probably better to keep on walking. Imagine how this affects color blind people such as myself :headbang:

Does $1,500 pr./$1,000 for lone female sound reasonable for het axanthics?

That's actually been the standard price since last year and I think, considering that axanthics are still going for $3k+, it's still a fair asking price, especially $1500 for a pair. After all, you could spend $6000 for a true axanthic pair and still not produce any for the next 2 years until they are at a mature breeding size. There's already a good sized crowd producing these and furthering to drive down the price. So, you do the math and try to figure out what your long term plans are, only then will it seem if it's worth it to you to spend the money for what you want

 

[Chip]

Well, that's the problem. Dealing with hets and possible hets is definitely a cheap alternative but a long term project that may or may not even prove out. By the time you get into the morph game anyways, there's already a long line of people that have already been there and done that. That's why you have to have a long term plan instead of a quick fix short term plan and work with the animal you choose simply because you love working with them. Then the money factor, which is still a big deal, doesn't matter as much because you'll have the satisfaction of producing your very own morphs.

I am only keeping this species because I love working with them. I have never recouped my mice, time and additions to my collection breeding anything, and have no illusions that these will be any different. I just love these animals!

What other co-dom morphs are you referring to? The only co-dom hognose morph I know of is the Anaconda.

Anaconda and patternless (which is the same gene).

And yes, like I mentioned before, all hognose morphs other than the albinos are still in the $1k+ range. But look at it this way, by the time you buy that pink pastel or axanthic or anaconda hognose, you'll be paying a significant amount less than people such as myself have paid. Already this year, the price of axanthics have dropped 25% from what we paid for our pair last year. Talk about taking a hit on the chin considering our female still has another good year to go before we decide to breed her. By that time, they might have dropped another 25% with enough axanthics out in the market making it difficult to even sell my own :shrugs: But that's the nature of this game, unless you get extremely lucky like Brent did in producing the Anacondas by a mere fluke of luck. Watch the price of Anacondas fall sharply by next year!

I hope you're right about that. It would be a fun one to get into the price range of the average hobby breeder.

While I agree that sometimes people seem to see more than what is there, especially when it comes to adding value to animal, if you are judging these animals based on shoddy online photographs, that might be part of the problem too. And I guess another problem is, what do you consider to be "normal"? There are definitely animals that exhibit more yellow or more green or more red than many others and that does make that animal exceptional enough to consider that if it is a passed down genetic trait that indeed it is a type of color morph and should be considered as such. But again, if someone calls it a yellow and you just don't see it, it's probably better to keep on walking. Imagine how this affects color blind people such as myself :headbang:

I'm referring to animals on Internet classifieds and that I've seen at shows. "Red" is the worst for this. I've seen 'em almost gray enough to be axanthic and called red. One "red" at Columbia made me wonder if I was color blind!

That's actually been the standard price since last year and I think, considering that axanthics are still going for $3k+, it's still a fair asking price, especially $1500 for a pair. After all, you could spend $6000 for a true axanthic pair and still not produce any for the next 2 years until they are at a mature breeding size. There's already a good sized crowd producing these and furthering to drive down the price. So, you do the math and try to figure out what your long term plans are, only then will it seem if it's worth it to you to spend the money for what you want

I wish I could afford visual animals of all the foundation morphs. I'm just not used to colubrids costing thousands of dollars! I hope their popularity rises, they are a fantastic snake. I was happy with a small group of normals until I saw this photo Clay Davenport took in Daytona:

Now I pretty much want them all! :laugh:

 

[DeadMouse]

I am only keeping this species because I love working with them. I have never recouped my mice, time and additions to my collection breeding anything, and have no illusions that these will be any different. I just love these animals!

Sure! I wasn't actually referring to you specifically, I was pretty much generalizing about the industry as a whole. It's like corns and ball pythons, the only reason a person should want to get into breeding those would be solely for the love of the species because there's way too much competition out there. As much as I enjoy keeping both of those species, from a business standpoint, I just couldn't understand a person investing heavily into these animals and expecting to break even for several years if ever.

But for small time breeders/keepers such as you and I, it's got to be for the love of the animals and nothing else because you simply cannot compete with the other breeders that have that long term advantage. While I am totally realistic about the value of our morphs being driven down significantly over the next few years, I hope that we can at least break even on some of the more expensive ones we invested in such as the axanthics and anaconda. Those 3 snakes alone cost us a small fortune!!! I can't even imagine the amounts of money many have lost in the ball python game. I have spoken with people who have spent $20k on a snake that 2 years later is worth maybe $1k, maybe. Fortunately, hognose are still a relatively unheard of snake and slowly starting to catch on in the industry.

by the time you buy that pink pastel or axanthic or anaconda hognose, you'll be paying a significant amount less than people such as myself have paid.

I hope you're right about that. It would be a fun one to get into the price range of the average hobby breeder.

Well, I've no doubt that it's still going to take several years before all the other morphs drop down to prices that the average hobbiest could still reasonably afford. Especially considering the fact that the Anacondas have opened up a whole new pandora's box of possibilities. While albinos have surely dropped in price now in the $300-500 range, morphs like the hypos and pink pastels have stayed reasonably stable price wise. While it wouldn't surprise me to see axanthics and anacondas hit the $2k range by next year, I think that they will still stay between $1k-$2k for quite a while. But with the economy the way it is right now, some breeders might get desperate enough to lower their prices to insane levels and end up undercutting everybody else just to make a quick buck. I just hope it doesn't come to this as it really only hurts those of us that have invested a lot of time and money to work with these animals but I guess time will tell how it all plays out.

I'm referring to animals on Internet classifieds and that I've seen at shows. "Red" is the worst for this. I've seen 'em almost gray enough to be axanthic and called red. One "red" at Columbia made me wonder if I was color blind!

I totally agree. I've seen a lot of people claim an animal is such and such a color and when you really look it, you are left wondering wtf they are talking about. While I'm a lot more skeptical of the dubious nature of online ads, it's really something when you go to a show and see something labeled as one thing that it doesn't appear to be. When I said that it's really dependent on how you want to define what a "normal" even is, is because there's still a high level of variance between normal colors. I have several "normals" that vary between kind of a tannish color to your typical more brownish to even a type of forest green (to me anyways as I'm sure my wife will correct me as being wrong ). There's only one female I have that I referred to as a blond phase because not only was her body a light yellow color, but her spotting was almost hypo-ish in appearance as well. As she's aging, she's darkening up a little but still quite different from my other group of adults. But again, if I were to sell an animal such as that, I would probably still only to label it as a normal unless it was a gene that proved out to exhibit the same traits.

To me, that's a huge problem in a lot of these morphs regardless of species. Too many layman are trying to discern the exact genetics of an animal without any real study or even proving if the gene is heritable. Like KJUN and I conversed about earlier, one example is the so-called Toffeebelly/T+ Albino hognose. I see a few individuals trying to hype these up and yet even readily admit that they have not proven out the genetics yet. It's one thing to announce that you have a possible new morph and then coincide that with a few years of proving them out and studying the animals. But it's something entirely different when you get these animals, hype them up on forums (without knowing anything about them) and then try selling them for several thousands of dollars. I highly commend Brent Bumgardner for not only taking the time to prove out his anacondas but for the manner in which he informed the community without really trying to hype them up solely based on the money factor, at least that's how I saw it played out. Sure, he's made a ton of money selling anacondas this year, but he earned it and that's what it's all about when you have a spectacular animal that is proven out.

I wish I could afford visual animals of all the foundation morphs. I'm just not used to colubrids costing thousands of dollars!

Well, there definitely are several colubrid species other than corns that can and do cost thousands, the thing is they are often overlooked due to the popularity of corns and ball pythons. One example is Bob Applegates Striped Albino Sinaloan. He's just recently produced these and they are going for $3k a pair. And really, that's not his most expensive snake either. When we visited him this summer, we bought a pair of his hypo Greeri for more than his striped sinaloans. Do I think there's a market for $2k hypo Greeri? Not at all! But I love Greeri, they are really one of my favorite kingsnakes and we bought them just based on that alone, and also because I think they are totally beautiful in hypo form

I hope their popularity rises, they are a fantastic snake.

I agree and I do think they will get more popular as more breeders start getting into them and all the wild morphs start popping out. I used to be solely a corn/king guy until we bought a pair of western hognose. Those snakes turned our whole snake keeping world upside down, literally. I honestly don't think we would have gotten into the breeding game so deep had it not been for our love and admiration of these wonderful snakes. They are truly unique in the colubrid world!

I was happy with a small group of normals until I saw this photo Clay Davenport took in Daytona:

Now I pretty much want them all! :laugh:

Yeah, that was Chad Fuchs and Jeff Nemanius' table that that picture was taken from. The two of them together have quite a collection of hognose. Honestly, I was more impressed with their booth because of their hognose display than I was with Brian Barczyk's despite Brian having a most impressive collection himself. He just doesn't display or push them like he does his pythons which is a real shame since he produced the first snow hogs last year and yet has rarely showed them off :shrugs:

Like I said before, it's an exciting time for hognose and the next few years will show some very wonderful animals being produced

Hypo Female (2008)

 

[Chip]

That hypo Greeri is beautiful! As is your hypo female western. Unless I have a huge week at the per shop, I guess I'll live vicariously through your collection until next year!

 

[Nanci]

Ooooh, do I remember that case of hoggies at Daytona...