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How do you feel about God.

You make a very good point though, there are some very fine nuances to be looked at as well when one is simply looking at what horrendous things we are capable of doing by blindly following anyone or getting caught up in a role.
 
I simply feel that adding in blind faith does not help the cause. You will always have groups that remind one of phelps, hale bop, holy crusades, witch hunts, etc. unless the root... blind belief in authority is looked at. And there is no greater authority than gods, magical deities, etc. in many peoples minds so when it comes to things like the milgrams experiment, etc... we have only to look at the mighty power that those who profess to have gods ear really have with their followers.
 
No, I believe that many good people can be lead to do evil when blind faith in an authority figure is involved. There is no greater authority figure for many than their god, which is why you have people that will kill, commit suicide, torture, etc. in the name of their god.
 
http://www.prisonexp.org/

Check out some of the video clips on that as well as some of milgram and you can see for yourself some very horrendous stuff that college kids are capable of, good kids..... simulated sodimy acts if memory serves me and much more.
 
I'm sticking with people who commit atrocities in the name of anyone, or no one, are solely responsible for their actions. Either they are moral, or they are not. If they do it in the name of God or any other higher authority, that is just an excuse for what is deep inside the person anyway.
 
Ah, an interesting question has risen.

How do we define good and evil?

Is it based upon the acts of the person, what they hold in their hearts (which of course only they know) or something else?

Maybe it a ratio of the sum of good acts to bad acts. That is, as long as you do more good than bad, then you're considered good?

:shrugs:

Oh crap again, I have more questions than answers.
 
Carpe, it sounds like you would enjoy some Bakunin. Here are some quotes from him. I have not read his works, but my friends have, and they have shared bits with me.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.
--Man, Society, and Freedom (1871)

A jealous lover of human liberty, deeming it the absolute condition of all that we admire and respect in humanity, I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, and say that, if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him.
--God and the State (1871; publ. 1882)

I hope I am sourcing these correctly as I am not familiar with his work. I grabbed the quotes from here.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin
 
Some of us have been many places, seen many things, observed greatness, some have even bred 1000's of a species giving said person great knowledge. I can believe in Science those things proven through testing trials, my concern is the one time out of 100 the test does not prove the theory? I can have faith in a creator/god, I can concern at the one time that creator/god lets me down. I can gather knowledge from science, creator/god or person who has bred 1000's of a species and feel blessed, enlightened. I would rather look deeper see what is unseen use others knowledge to enhance mine but never to replace what I feel in my heart. If I gather information and use it to the best of MY ability then if I fail, I can blame only myself. Since I am a tad chicken (not the one who raised 1000's) if I believed creator/god, science... I won't have to shoulder my fall alone.
So yes I believe in a greater power and science, but more my own ability to decide how I use this knowledge.
a note by author: I do not respect people who dribble on and on, who can only speak eloquently when citing others work and even more those who forget to cite. So my dribble is my own any resemblance to someone else's dribble pure error on my part
 
susang said:
Some of us have been many places, seen many things, observed greatness, some have even bred 1000's of a species giving said person great knowledge. I can believe in Science those things proven through testing trials, my concern is the one time out of 100 the test does not prove the theory? I can have faith in a creator/god, I can concern at the one time that creator/god lets me down. I can gather knowledge from science, creator/god or person who has bred 1000's of a species and feel blessed, enlightened. I would rather look deeper see what is unseen use others knowledge to enhance mine but never to replace what I feel in my heart. If I gather information and use it to the best of MY ability then if I fail, I can blame only myself. Since I am a tad chicken (not the one who raised 1000's) if I believed creator/god, science... I won't have to shoulder my fall alone.
So yes I believe in a greater power and science, but more my own ability to decide how I use this knowledge.
a note by author: I do not respect people who dribble on and on, who can only speak eloquently when citing others work and even more those who forget to cite. So my dribble is my own any resemblance to someone else's dribble pure error on my part
Click to expand...

It is an obvious stab at me, I get that. For everything I have done, there is someone else who has done far more and I really don't feel like I have done that much as this is a very short life so far. What little I have accomplished however was on the backs of others who shared with me their trinkets of information. As for some of the greatness you may think I have seen, I am sure the two of us might differ on what that greatness was as what you may see as greatness, I recognize for the cheap parlor tricks they are as I can duplicate them and know them to be just that. If a single fact was to be discovered that disproved evolution we would have to accept that fact and revamp that theory. Science is falsifiable and always will be. There is a difference between being falsifiable and actually hurt however. Religion however does not lend itself so easy to being falsified as it is dogmatically true.

I do not say the person who kills in the name of his god out of sincere belief that he is following his god is evil anymore than many of you would if you were to read the bible and see that many places in the bible god commands just that... to kill. I would never label a person for such acts as evil. I can see the goodness in his heart even though I may consider it misdirected by his desire to blindly follow the guidance of those who would claim to have gods ear or otherwise and if that man instead listened to his own heart, I think many times what you may see might be different. How many people would suicide bomb... if they thought there was no hell or heaven... if there was no 72 virgins waiting for them for their deed?
 
"...You will always have groups that remind one of phelps, hale bop, holy crusades, witch hunts, etc. unless the root... blind belief in authority is looked at. And there is no greater authority than gods, magical deities, etc..." (Carpe S.)

"Blind belief in authority" is the key! It is true that God would command the most authority, but that hasn't stopped other authoritative leaders trying to usurp His place, lol! And sometimes, quite successfully, from the perspective of garnering lots of blind loyalty!


"... when one is simply looking at what horrendous things we are capable of doing by blindly following anyone or getting caught up in a role..." (Carpe S.)

Exactly! But it doesn't require religion or God to follow blindly...

I think that in at least some of the cases of "evil dictators", a charismatic individual may get the masses to completely believe in him. He may become almost like a deity to the people, so of course he doesn't want any religion around to compete with him. But some of the despots probably rule just by being ruthless, or may even combine the two traits. Many of the indoctrinated people will follow their leader blindly out of reverence or fear, and it has nothing to do with religion.

So, while their subjects are not exactly "praying to atheism" or "following atheism" while carrying out the dictator's orders, that leader has basically taken over the religious position. I guess you could call his reign a cult, or just an atheistic dictatorship. Whatever you call it, an atheistic dictator can command the same blind loyalty as any religious deity might command.

Although religious beliefs tend to be highly emotional and personal, and some people might unthinkingly share a belief simply because their parents did, I think that some of the dictators in the poster collage prove that an atheistic leader can drum up blind loyalty as well as many religious leaders have done. Any circumstance that is highly emotionally charged is more prone to abuse than ordinary, logical events. And many political and religious leaders have learned to take advantage of that fact of human nature. Probably their ability to tap into that facet of human nature is what gave them leadership abilities in the first place. Whether they whip up fear of pythons overtaking the country, or the devil taking souls, SOME leaders of ALL stripes probably have much in common in their abilities to manipulate people into following their agenda. But as long as their followers are doing no harm to anyone else, I can respect their right to believe as they do, and I am open to the fact that some of them may turn out to be correct in their beliefs while I am wrong in mine.
 
Any charismatic individual, position in authority, etc. can drum up followers and there will always be those who follow blindly as many studies have proven out. The difference is that simply being an atheist means without gods. One does not garner any special power from being without a god/gods as one would garner from having a special relationship with a god.

That is the difference. Much of your other statements however, I agree with Kathy. Show me where you have ever seen a person sway others simply because of the power inherent in their nonfaith to kill, torture, or commit suicide.
 
There is no divine power of atheism to sway people to commit attrocities in the same manner that there is a perceived divine power of god directing attrocitities in the minds of those that follow blindly those that have the ear of god.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
It is an obvious stab at me, I get that. For everything I have done, there is someone else who has done far more and I really don't feel like I have done that much as this is a very short life so far. What little I have accomplished however was on the backs of others who shared with me their trinkets of information. As for some of the greatness you may think I have seen, I am sure the two of us might differ on what that greatness was as what you may see as greatness, I recognize for the cheap parlor tricks they are as I can duplicate them and know them to be just that. If a single fact was to be discovered that disproved evolution we would have to accept that fact and revamp that theory. Science is falsifiable and always will be. There is a difference between being falsifiable and actually hurt however. Religion however does not lend itself so easy to being falsified as it is dogmatically true.
Click to expand...

Not everything I said was aimed at you. Yes I believe we are very different, but that is not a bad thing it would be boring if we were all the same. I have no idea what you have or have not seen, nor you me. The issue I have with you is that you feel you are great for all the greatness you have done, seen, observed... You quote others without giving credit. You inject your opinion into so many discussions adnauseum. I have not blocked anyone and refuse to start with you. I enjoy others opinions and want to give mine, but I want what they really feel, think in their own words. Your constant force fed truth (the truth of others really) makes me gag.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
It is an obvious stab at me, I get that. For everything I have done, there is someone else who has done far more and I really don't feel like I have done that much as this is a very short life so far. What little I have accomplished however was on the backs of others who shared with me their trinkets of information.
Click to expand...
You seem to possess tenacity. Thanks for being a good sport
 
Any circumstance that is highly emotionally charged is more prone to abuse than ordinary, logical events. And many political and religious leaders have learned to take advantage of that fact of human nature. Probably their ability to tap into that facet of human nature is what gave them leadership abilities in the first place.
Click to expand...

I like this, and agree with it. It seems as though that the way for some people to rise to the top is through exploitation. Exploitation and despotism seem to go together. I bet a healthy dose of charisma doesn't hurt either.

And I second Dave....thanks Carpe for being such a good sport.
 
"There is no divine power of atheism to sway people to commit atrocities in the same manner that there is a perceived divine power of god directing atrocities in the minds of those that follow blindly those that have the ear of god." (Carpe S.)

I agree! Those who want to abuse power know that they have to give people something emotionally powerful to believe in to sway them. Or maybe something to scare them - whatever it takes and whatever that power monger feels comfortable with. Of course it is much easier to get people follow you if they think you have God's ear than if you tell them there is no God. Or you can scare them with "Wars" against drugs, guns, gay marriage, or pythons. You might drum up a few followers with militancy against religion, but that will not be nearly as effective as the other strategies.

So I do agree with you that it is easier to get followers FOR a religion than AGAINST religions (atheism). But since you can also get blind followers using various scare tactics or with a non religious charismatic leader, I don't understand how this potential power abuse method is more of a black mark against religion than it is against non religious politicians or other power abusers.
 
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