It's just corn snakes!

[Tula_Montage]

If they just came in normal, the challenge would be to see if they *could* come in other colors/patterns. At least, that's what's happened with ball pythons and boas and kings and water dragons and crested geckos and you name it.

Of course, then you could concentrate on improving that one form of the species, for example look how we have defined the ultimate okeetees from locality parents. IMO people should concentrate on defining morphs rather than flinging every double/tripple recessive they have together to make new morphs.

I think if you have the skill or the dedication and a good grounding in what's already been tried and failed, and taking the animals from the wild isn't endangering the species as a whole, that this is a noble effort. It's jut not for me.

I understand its not for everyone

Here's where you and I differ a lot. I get really invested in my animals, and even if I were doing great, ground breaking husbandry work, I couldn't deal with the emotional cost of having an animal completely fail to thrive. Chaulking it up to experience, even when that experience is an important addition to pool of knowledge about keeping a difficult species, is too hard for me.

No, we don't differ. I have "invested" a small fortune on racks, cages, stats etc... Its very hard to provide optimum care for a species that has almost no documented husbandry information. Sure theres one or two breeders in England we can ask, but they don't understand how our girl is the size of their adults even though shes only a yearling. Does that not mean shes really thriving? Apparently not, which we do not understand.

This may also be the difference between living in a relatively small country where it is difficult to get many species and one actually has the chance of breaking new ground, and living in a large country where the groundbreaking work has mostly already been done by people with way more resources than I have!

The thrill of being the first in my country has already been claimed by others in most cases. And with my budget and the availability of interesting, inexpensive hets, I'm far more likely to get near the cutting edge with corn morphs than with anything else. And the challenge of combining multiple recessives without paying top dollar for someone else's hard work is very satisfying. It's like a chess tournament: charting multiple moves in advance and holding your breath while the snakes (and Murphy) make theirs.

But you know that in the end you are still reproducing corns?! :grin01:

 

[Nanci]

I don't care about difficult care requirements, but I _do_ care about feeding difficulty. Nothing is more satisfying than filling 5 feeding bins with snakes and mice and removing only snakes. I can deal with the springtime hunger strike after experiencing those snakes starting to feed again. I am not enjoying dealing with the chronic regurger- every feeding and three days after if fraught with anxiety- will it stay down, am I increasing the size too rapidly, is he losing weight because I am not increasing the size (back to near normal) fast enough, why did he refuse this time, when every meal counts, etc. I am also not enjoying the constant worry of will my Eastern Hoggy ever switch to mice. Sure, she's simple to assist- she even opens her mouth! But I want her to be normal. I don't think I'd deal well with a finicky royal who'd stop and start feeding on a whim.

I was reading in some magazine how eyeless red-earred sliders are highly prized by collectors- that's why that turtlesale.com or whatever it is has them for sale. Weird.

As my dragon gets more difficult to feed by the day I long for a lizard who just eats what's put in front of her...I don't mind the expensive lighting and exacting temp requirements and all that- I just want her to eat! Anything! By herself!

Nanci

 

[jazzgeek]

Interesting topic!

As I see it, people engage in a pastime for a whole breadth of reasons. I have a Labrador Retriever because I get no greater thrill (for dogs, at least) than watching a field-bred retriever do its work. Others own Labs because they're great family dogs and "good with kids". Still others enjoy showing their Labs at Kennel Club events.....and yet others enjoy training Labs for "service dog" work.

And many of those who have Labs for those purposes other than mine view my "morph" as hyper, lacking focus, and a general "spaz". To each his own.

I see keeping corns no differently; some will enjoy the relative ease of breeding, others the large genetic palette from which to create, others for the broad conditions under which they thrive, and so on.

For you to say that you'd prefer to be "challenged" by a snake is just that, your preference. Again, to each his own.

I have enough challenges in other aspects of my life - professional, familial, yada, yada, yada - to be content with keeping corns as a very addictive hobby. Simply put, I want to make pretty animals for those who appreciate their beauty.

I can still appreciate other snake (and reptile) species - I would love to keep a Green Tree Python, a Hogg Island boa or two, a Red Tegu, and more bearded dragons. I would also love to have an intimate relationship with Scarlett Johansson as well, but I've realized the constraints in my life with regards to pursuing these choices.

And coming to terms with these "roads not taken" is merely the maturation process.

regards,
jazz

(Cripes, I just read Dean's post, and just realized this was pretty much a rephrasing of it. Mea culpa.)

 

[batwrangler]

But you know that in the end you are still reproducing corns?! :grin01:

Yup! I suppose anything non-venomous has the potential to become widely available and commonly kept and get relegated to "just x" status.

Why do some gardeners specialize in trying to make blue hybrid tea roses? At the end of the day, they are just reproducing more roses.

 

[starsevol]

I realized that I am a cornsnake person the moment that cornsnakes were not a "just a " to me, but everything else was!

No matter how beautiful, rare, huge, venomous, special,hard-to-care-for, nasty-tempered etc. a creature is, to me if it is NOT a cornsnake, "it's justa whatever"!

 

[Snake Dave]

Very interesting Tula, but what you have to understand is that not everyone owns snakes to be a challenge, especially novices. I'm sure that everyone on this forum owns a snake because they love them, but most people are content with just that. Do parents keep children for their diversity or because they are a challenge? No, they do it because they want to see their children thrive because they love them.

Now, I, like many others on this forum love Corn snakes. As you rightly put, even though I may be contradicting myself here, raising different species of snakes is much more interesting than just keeping one (my previous paragraph was for those who don't share this view lol), hence why I'm getting a Royal Python on Tuesday after owning only one Corn.

In my opinion, you were right when you said that at the end of the day that Corn snakes are Corn snakes. All the morphs and colour changes are spectacular sometimes, but yes, they're still just Corn snakes. From a breeders point of view this may not be comprehendible, but they're the same snake with often similar temperaments, feeding habits and size. For us to truly love and understand snakes, we must broaden our horizons to keep and study different species.

 

[Roy Munson]

I think this is a great thread too, and I commend you for posting it Elle. :cheers:

And I understand your perspective, and I've felt the way you do before, albeit for only VERY brief amounts of time. I mean, one day I'm wholesaling gorgeous coral snows to the pet store for $12 per snake, and the next day I'm sending off $1000 for a single cinder. It makes you think.

And no, if corns didn't come in a variety of appearances and possess the potential to produce unlimited new appearances, then I probably wouldn't own that many. Thankfully, this isn't the case. A painting is nothing but pigment on canvas. A symphony is nothing but vibrations carried by air. I'm not saying that by throwing two snakes in a tub I'm the artistic equivalent of Rembrandt or Beethoven, but you can reduce any beautiful thing down to its base components and question its value. :shrugs:

 

[Roy Munson]

For us to truly love and understand snakes, we must broaden our horizons to keep and study different species.

I don't know about that. To truly love and understand corn snakes, we don't need to keep and study other species. I could say that to truly love and understand animals, you must broaden your horizons to keep and study different species. How much do you know about rhinoceroses? Are you planning on keeping one soon or engrossing yourself in their study, or do you NOT truly love and seek to understand animals?

 

[starsevol]

Very interesting Tula, but what you have to understand is that not everyone owns snakes to be a challenge, especially novices. I'm sure that everyone on this forum owns a snake because they love them, but most people are content with just that. Do parents keep children for their diversity or because they are a challenge? No, they do it because they want to see their children thrive because they love them.

Now, I, like many others on this forum love Corn snakes. As you rightly put, even though I may be contradicting myself here, raising different species of snakes is much more interesting than just keeping one (my previous paragraph was for those who don't share this view lol), hence why I'm getting a Royal Python on Tuesday after owning only one Corn.

In my opinion, you were right when you said that at the end of the day that Corn snakes are Corn snakes. All the morphs and colour changes are spectacular sometimes, but yes, they're still just Corn snakes. From a breeders point of view this may not be comprehendible, but they're the same snake with often similar temperaments, feeding habits and size. For us to truly love and understand snakes, we must broaden our horizons to keep and study different species.

Royal pythons are nice snakes. I've had them before. I have my rosy boas and in the past I have also had a garter and a variety of kings (cali, grey band and desert). As much as I loved them, they never came close to my first cornsnake. A dirt-common sunglow-style amel named Calvin.
I got TRULY hooked after a friend of mine moved out of state. He had to get rid of his collection, but I agreed to keep his 3 favorites for him until he settled in. He was thrilled and told me I could keep or sell any offspring they produced. That was how I got my very first bloodred and fire!
Oh, and after all this time, Calvin is still goin' strong! I LOVE that boy!

 

[starsevol]

Oh, and one more small point...
The older I get, the more I try to "buy American".

How much more American can you get than a cornsnake?

Cornsnakes, hot dogs, apple pie, oh yeah!

 

[Tula_Montage]

A painting is nothing but pigment on canvas. A symphony is nothing but vibrations carried by air. I'm not saying that by throwing two snakes in a tub I'm the artistic equivalent of Rembrandt or Beethoven, but you can reduce any beautiful thing down to its base components and question its value. :shrugs:

Very nice analogy Dean... If I could rep you I would.

It all come down to personal preference. Some see chondros as a breeze, some see corns and royals as a total challenge. Its down to our individual needs and wants from this hobby. But most of all I think a lot of us don't want to leave the comfort zone...

 

[starsevol]

Tula, I would rep him if I could, too.

At my advanced age, I prefer my comforts

 

[Joejr14]

How can you get bored hatching out cutting edge snakes? Blizzard sunkisseds this year---a potential first. Even if it's not, it's something that 99.9% of cornsnake owners have never seen before---nevermind hatched out. How cool is that?

3 years down the road hatching out lav blood stripes and opal blood stripes. Hypo sunkisseds? Phantom Sunkisseds? Etc etc.

I have no idea how in the heck they'd become boring...

 

[Snake Dave]

Wow, that really is a wonderful analogy Dean...

 

[Tula_Montage]

How can you get bored hatching out cutting edge snakes? Blizzard sunkisseds this year---a potential first. Even if it's not, it's something that 99.9% of cornsnake owners have never seen before---nevermind hatched out. How cool is that?

3 years down the road hatching out lav blood stripes and opal blood stripes. Hypo sunkisseds? Phantom Sunkisseds? Etc etc.

I have no idea how in the heck they'd become boring...

What happens to amels, snows, anerys and normals when they are no longer "worth" anything to breeders? Surley these big fancy projects produce many unwanted side products. Are we not being completely shallow valuing or putting a price tag on the same species of snake by what colour its skin is? I don't see why a lavender bloodred should be any more expensive than an anery stripe or an amel motley as they both take as much effort to "manufacture", they are both only double recessive mutations.

I don't think you understood the point I was trying to make, no matter howexciting or "cutting edge" these cultivars are, they are still corns. They have the same care requirements. A million corn snakes only give you the skill to look after corns.

IMO Being an experienced or advanced snake hobbyist means trying and failing with many different species. You cannot claim to be an expert if all you have kept are corns? This is what I do not understand.

 

[Snake Dave]

IMO Being an experienced or advanced snake hobbyist means trying and failing with many different species. You cannot claim to be an expert if all you have kept are corns? This is what I do not understand.

I totally agree.

 

[starsevol]

But I for one don't want to be an "expert".
I have nothing to prove.

 

[jazzgeek]

I don't see why a lavender bloodred should be any more expensive than an anery stripe or an amel motley as they both take as much effort to "manufacture", they are both only double recessive mutations.

The simple economic principles of "supply and demand" are at play here...the earlier recessive mutants (amel, anery) have been around - by that, I mean in a homozygous state - much longer than lavender and cinder, as it were. More supply, less demand, lower price.

I don't think you understood the point I was trying to make, no matter howexciting or "cutting edge" these cultivars are, they are still corns. They have the same care requirements. A million corn snakes only give you the skill to look after corns.

I disagree. You then have the skills to look after similar species - practically all colubrids, essentially.

IMO Being an experienced or advanced snake hobbyist means trying and failing with many different species. You cannot claim to be an expert if all you have kept are corns? This is what I do not understand.

You'd have to further define what you mean by "expert", IMO. An expert in corns? Rat snakes? Colubrids? All snakes?

And as it's been said among IT professionals, an "expert" is a person that management brings in from out of town.

regards,
jazz

 

[texastailfeathers]

But I for one don't want to be an "expert".
I have nothing to prove.

Then that part of the conversation probably doesn't apply to you. She's not trying to ruffle feathers here. It's perfectly normal and acceptable to get bored with one species/breed of [insert animal here] and this is simply a discussion of opinions on why people do or do not get bored with corn snakes. Your reasons for not getting bored may not be the same as someone else's, just as Elle's reasons for getting bored are unique as well.

 

[Roy Munson]

But I for one don't want to be an "expert".
I have nothing to prove.

Yep. And if I want to make myself feel better, I can consider myself a corn "specialist". I have a dog, and I like him, but I don't care to be a dog expert. And I picked his breed because they're small and manageable. I don't need to challenge myself with an aggressive, abused pit-bull rescue or a giant Newfoundland to prove that I love dogs and that I'm a capable dog keeper.

I don't see why a lavender bloodred should be any more expensive than an anery stripe or an amel motley as they both take as much effort to "manufacture", they are both only double recessive mutations.

It's all supply and demand. There are fewer lav-bloods out there. You lump anery stripe with amel motley, but anery stripes are more expensive than amel motleys. Bring it down to the single homozygous level. Should a cinder be priced the same as an amel? Why are Corn Island BCIs so much more expensive than run-of-the-mill Central American BCIs?

And it doesn't take the same effort to "manufacture" a cinder as it does to make an amel. It is more difficult to acquire the cinder "ingredients". I had to put in a lot more hours at my job to acquire the cinder ingredients than I would have to acquire amel ingredients. It takes the same effort to grill a low-grade hamburger as it does to grill a Kobe beef filet mignon. Why don't they cost the same?