just how fast does it take snakes to get scale rot anyhow?

[Lyreiania]

To the OP....

In your Original post.... you describe the enclosure as being 6 ft long By 18 Inches wide. Can I assume the Height dimension is either 18 or 24 inches?

Now...I'm Not sure what you paid for said enclosure.....But i'm rather Positive you could have bought a 10 tub rack system with belly heat...for $440.00 Shipped from Animal Plastics. Add an Extra $100.00 for the 10 tubs, and your total...is $540.00.

I'm Almost positive...unless you built the enclosure....the price tag was comparable to the rack system i described.

My point is....

They don't Miss one another...they don't "Love" one Another...and the Darned sure don't "Love" You...or me...or anyone else who keeps snakes.

This whole thread is a classic case of a person wanting to keep animals to fill a personal need or void in ones life....And the Needs of the animals in question fall by the wayside.

On a side note......

I've kept Corns, Bp's and Kingsnakes.... I've never once seen scale rot.

In closing....

I'm not saying I'm better than you....or better at keeping snakes....or that your a Horrible keeper, Just that those of us who have responded to this thread saw the red-flag. Co-habbed Snakes, suffering some form of disease.

Did you honestly think you wouldn't ruffle a few feathers?

Separate the Snakes.

keep'em clean, & Dry.

Far fewer issues.

My two-cents.... for what it's worth.

Hi...height of cage is 20 inches. Custom made. But even that cost far less than $540. And, I would be appalled to have my snakes in what looked like tupperware containers, snakes unable even to look outside. Snakes unable to stretch out full length. I am not about quantity of racks, but of the quality of their environment. I would not tell you though that you are awful, wrong to do such, as I well know that perceptions differ. I think my snakes need to be able to stretch out fully, to climb and to bask.

And no, how could I imagine that cohabiting snakes would set off this war of the words? I could understand the anger and outrage had I said I ran a few snakes through the kitchen blender; I could understand the ire if I said I swung them by the tail like a lasso. This response I am getting is far far out of proportion to the imagined provocation.

I do agree with you, in that they should be kept clean and dry, and I endeavor to do so. But, even with the best of intent to do so, accidents do happen...like a spilled / overflowed water bowl. That reflects on my water basin, not on cohabitation. I dont see a reason I feel is valid to separate the animals, and to deny them the spacious home to which they are accustomed. I read your concerns. I do not agree.

 

[DragonsDenSerpents]

If the area is so spacious, then why would dividing it be too small? If that space is "plenty big enough for two" then why couldn't it be divided? It's still the same space, it just gives each their own secure area.

 

[Lyreiania]

Lyre, answer this please.

It is obvious to anyone reading this thread that what I said is true. You really don't care about them. You say you know the pros and cons....well please enlighten me. Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE?? I seem to have missed that part.

Its obvious to anyone reading the thread that I maintain my snakes in great surroundings and conditions, and care about them deeply....or I would not be posting on a snake forum regarding them. Its obvious that your arrogant condescension is very misplaced. Of course I care about them; they are beloved pets. Its absurd to believe I do not because I dont house them as you desire. Benefits to the snake are that the snakes have a large spacious cage...big benefit to them. They have multiple hides, climbing apparatus. They are gentler, tamer, and I believe that is due to cohabitation, as I mentioned upthread. I think their increased gentleness and tameness indicates where they are benefits them...as they are not aggressive, striking, or acting as unhappy displeased animals...as they were when in quarantine.

You are not required to agree, you are not required to approve. But do try to drop the insults...they do not help your so called position.

 

[Chip]

Would you mind answering the question, then?

Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE??

 

[Lyreiania]

If the area is so spacious, then why would dividing it be too small? If that space is "plenty big enough for two" then why couldn't it be divided? It's still the same space, it just gives each their own secure area.

Let us go over some basic math. The snakes are 5 to 6 feet long. That translates to 60- 72 inch long animals. Their cage is 72 inches long. If I divided their cage in half, half of 72 is 36. They would then have only 36 inches by 18 inches to stretch out in. THAT would be an enclosure that is FAR too small for a 6 foot...or even a 5 foot long animal. I know some people think its OK to have a snake in a small cramped enclosure. I am not one of them. Diving the cage horizontally instead would only give them 9 inches in width, not enough space even if they had the 72 inches in length.

So, the cage works just fine as it is...for two. Its plenty big enough for two as it is; dividing it and the subsequent loss of space...as its not the same space if they lose access to half of it... would make it too small for one.

 

[beautifullywild77]

I did find some articles on stress with snakes. Some of them are about stress of male snakes during mating season. (This was just a quick search on google, I am sure there are even more in depth studies on snakes and stress)
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...a=X&ei=CvxUUa-hOq7viQLTooH4CQ&ved=0CC8QgQMwAA

Here are a couple of articles I found that list the signs of stress in reptiles and how stress can cause ill health.
http://www.anapsid.org/signs.html This article even states to take in consideration if there are multiple inhabitants.
http://www.netvet.co.uk/snakes/stress.htm This one states how easy it is to miss the signs of stress in snakes.

How stress gets missed

Many owners have expectations of the behaviour of their snake which means that they miss the early signs which, if addressed, can prevent a lot of distress for the animal. Because snakes do not ‘snack’ on their food and need feeding three times a day like a cat or dog, it is easy to miss growing anorexia. This is often one of the earliest signs. Weight loss is also not such an easy symptom to spot, especially in a small snake which may only weigh a pound or less. Two ounces is over ten percent of its body weight and so is a significant loss, but is less than the weight of a small hen’s egg, so very difficult to notice when handling the snake. The other main symptom of stress in a snake is increased lethargy. Some snakes are quite active but many are slow moving and in the case of nocturnal snakes this sign can be missed altogether. Stress can result in death, as the snake stops eating and will become prone to other conditions as it weakens, so it really pays to watch out for it.

Prevention of stress

Stress is easily prevented by providing the correct conditions for the snake, taking thought and time to make sure that it has what it needs and mainly to provide what the snake wants, not what you as an owner wants. If your snake happens to be a species which prefers to live quietly, eating in a hide and sleeping all day, then you must let it.

Also, I did find this article on scale rot

What is scale rot?
Scale rot is a bacterial infection often found in captive reptiles, especially snakes. It is caused by the conditions being too moist and also by improper husbandry practices involving failure to properly clean the animal’s enclosure. Basically they slither around in their own excrement and come down with an infection on their stomachs. Which shouldn’t surprise anyone.

http://pet-snakes.com/scale-rot-pet-snakes

Personally, I have seen the stress and illness that can happen to corn snakes when they are cohabbed for a prolonged period of time. (They were kept in a rather large, multilevel viv). I took them in and gave them each their own vivs. It makes all the difference in the world.

 

[DragonsDenSerpents]

Pretty sure if half the space is not big enough for one, then twice that isn't big enough for two. Just y'know, basic math.

 

[starsevol]

Lyre, I know you think you are doing well with them, but you are not. Space is not really a huge issue with snakes. Sure, they shouldnt be crammed into something teeny, but they also don't need to completely stretch out either. Most snakes seem to feel secure in a closer surrounding.

As far as water causing scale rot, like I said before, 3 of my males...no make that 4 are wallowing in their water bowls, as in emptying them allll over their bins. I try to keep up but they keep doing it. I check them in the morning, go to work, and come home and their bins are swimming pools.

They have never ever had scale rot, nor have any of my animals.

Honestly, those bins you seem to think are so horrible are really the best things, as long as they are clean and heated and dry.

One of the very best breeders (and people) I know has been weighing in on this. Her snakes are cherished pets, and her babies are the biggest and healthiest you will ever find. If you don't listen to me, please please listen to Nanci. When I die I want to come back as one of her snakes.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Its obvious to anyone reading the thread that I maintain my snakes in great surroundings and conditions, and care about them deeply....or I would not be posting on a snake forum regarding them. Its obvious that your arrogant condescension is very misplaced. Of course I care about them; they are beloved pets.

If you care about them so much, then please tell me how co habbing benefits the snake?

Pretty sure if half the space is not big enough for one, then twice that isn't big enough for two. Just y'know, basic math.

Can't argue with that at all.

If the space is not large enough to divide, it is not big enough to cohab in.

 

[starsevol]

Pretty sure if half the space is not big enough for one, then twice that isn't big enough for two. Just y'know, basic math.

That's what I was trying to say before! Thank you!

 

[Lyreiania]

Of course half the space is not large enough for one...but the whole tank is just fine for two. Its really simple. They can stretch out in the whole tank, they cant in half the space. I should think that would be obvious; I explained the math behind it. As for how a large cage benefits an animal, well, I should think that should be apparent as well. I explained that one also, upthread. I am happy none of your snakes have had scale rot. Maybe mine were on the damp for far longer than I realized. No one is perfect, after all. In the well over 10 years...actually come to think of it, its about 15 years... I have had snakes, all happily cohabiting, this is the 2nd bout of it. My snakes have lived for many many years, and I have no personal evidence their housing has shortened their life span.

"Space is not a huge issue for snakes". I am seeing the opposite; my snakes do better in larger enclosures. One of my special needs crew is eating far better now that he is in a 55 gallon rather than the 20 long that everyone says is just fine for an adult corn/rat. (He is a rosy rat snake; hes been with me 8 years). I see my guys climb, slither, bask on their "loft". They do indeed seem to enjoy the large space provided.

As for Nanci, she has given me great advice before on a few topics. I do not doubt her wisdom or font of knowledge in many areas. But, I am not in agreement with her on this one issue.

 

[Nanci]

As far as water causing scale rot, like I said before, 3 of my males...no make that 4 are wallowing in their water bowls, as in emptying them allll over their bins. I try to keep up but they keep doing it. I check them in the morning, go to work, and come home and their bins are swimming pools.

I solved this problem by putting the water bowl (large, heavy ceramic dog bowl) in a 9" deli. I cut two holes in the lid; one in the center, which goes over the bowl, and one out at the side, which goes over the open space. The snake can wallow and spill all he wants, and the substrate stays dry.

(Replacing the bowl with a smaller bowl just makes the snake run out of water faster- you still need to change the aspen within hours of a water bowl fill).

 

[starsevol]

I solved this problem by putting the water bowl (large, heavy ceramic dog bowl) in a 9" deli. I cut two holes in the lid; one in the center, which goes over the bowl, and one out at the side, which goes over the open space. The snake can wallow and spill all he wants, and the substrate stays dry.

(Replacing the bowl with a smaller bowl just makes the snake run out of water faster- you still need to change the aspen within hours of a water bowl fill).

Thanks you Nanci, from me, Stark, Mojo, Twix and Syko. They will be singing "How Dry I am" in no time!!

And sorry Lyre, but if half is too small for one, then it is too small for 2 whether they can stretch out or not. They need to not even see each other at all. Simple math. If you are short of space, have you considered building up and not out? I mean can you put another cage the same size on top of the one you have now? That would be really good for them. And I would bet cash money that if you did that and seperated them, you would never ever see scale rot ever again....

 

[Chip]

Let us go over some basic math.

One more time. Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE??

 

[Isoldael]

One more time. Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE??

She has told you repeatedly that her snakes are calmer and seem a lot more relaxed when cohabbed. That, to her, is a benefit to the snake. I agree that an environment in which a snake seems to be less stressed might actually benefit the animal.

I know I'm going to hear the "OMG BUT YOU CANT SEE STRESS" argument again, but that's the whole point here - we don't KNOW what makes a snake happy and what stresses them out, so all we can go by is their behaviour.

As for the "solitary in the wild" argument - Sure. They are solitary in the wild. That is usually related to limited food resources - each snake needs a large habitat to hunt and capture enough prey to sustain itself. You will notice that in areas where food sources are abundant, even solitary animals will often share habitats without any issues whatsoever. I know that doesn't mean that we should definitely cohabit our snakes, but it does prove that solitary animals in the wild apparently aren't always bothered by sharing space with others.

@Nanci - I got replies from most of the people I contacted, and most of them don't want to be dragged into a discussion they're not a part of (and especially a very heated one). To be honest, I don't blame them. Barbara, however, allowed me to use her name here. I know certain people here have already had some arguments with her, but among all dutch keepers I know in person, she's quite respected

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Yeah, Babara did herself no favors when she posted pictures of her enclosures. She also admitted what she did to her boas was wrong. That's not going to help the cause much. There is a thread where all of that is posted right out in the public view. She has also openly admitted that she cohabs for her benefit, not the animals.

Barbara listened to us when were telling her about her boas being stressed and did the right thing by separating them. Barbara and I have clashed on more than one occasion, but I have a lot of respect for her because she did the right thing and stopped cohabbing the stressed out boas.

That's what we are telling this OP to do. Her males are displaying stress behaviors. She needs to separate them. If a well respected dutch keeper can see that and do the right thing, this OP can as well.

 

[Nanci]

Did Barbara happen to mention how her cohabbing led to inadvertant death by cannibalism? I didn't think so.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Did Barbara happen to mention how her cohabbing led to inadvertant death by cannibalism? I didn't think so.

True.

That is also publicly posted by Barbara herself on the forums.

I have NO ISSUE with cohabbing, if it is done properly. So far, almost none of the people posting about it do it correctly, Barbara included.

 

[Isoldael]

That's what we are telling this OP to do. Her males are displaying stress behaviors. She needs to separate them. If a well respected dutch keeper can see that and do the right thing, this OP can as well.

The thing is, nothing I see written in any of the OPs posts proves that the snakes are under stress. So they are trying to have sex with each other. That is not necessarily stress related (as I pointed out earlier, I have a male snake who was trying to mate with a piece of wood). Yes, they have scale rot, but that's not necessarily stress related. All you need for scale rot are the unfortunate conditions of moist and some bacteria. Of course there are things that could make a snake more susceptible (high overall humidity, low environmental temperatures, poor nutrition, thermal burns and injured skin (1)), but you can't conclude just from the fact that she's cohabbing her snakes and they have scale rot that it MUST be the cohabbing causing the scale rot. You can speculate, but it's FAR from a certainty.

1) Dermatology in Reptiles, Emily Hoppmann, DVMb, Heather Wilson Barron, DVM, Dip. ABVP (Avian)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1557506307001516)

 

[Isoldael]

Did Barbara happen to mention how her cohabbing led to inadvertant death by cannibalism? I didn't think so.

You must be referring to a different case than the one I heard of - the only case of her that I heard of was where she was breeding a king snake to a corn and - stupidly - left the room while they were at it. She knows that was a grave mistake, but that doesn't have much to do with cohabbing. If it was another case, please correct me.