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Just what we need.....

I couldn't afford Sunkissed lavenders at Rich's Daytona prices then, and I can't afford them now. I got very lucky and purchased some awesome hets to eventually produce my own. I went over my budget and snagged a pair that I couldn't resist from Rob and Louise. I had a credit with Jeff and chose an older snake with feeding issues to take care of that.

I only produced about 1/3 of the hatchlings that I did last year, and was lucky enough to sell most of them at Out-of-egg or wholesale prices. I don't like that I couldn't guarantee them, but at those prices, something had to go. The rest I've kept or euthanized. I look at the classifieds daily on this site and see adult snakes offered at prices that I would have jumped at a couple of years ago, but today, I'm thinking of how much, or how little, I'll be getting for the few surplus adults I'll be trying to sell soon, just to make some room.

Would you prefer to see the Sunkissed lavenders and golddust stripes sold to a wholesaler and show up at Petco for $59 each? With luck, Rich's remaining hatchlings will all go overseas.

It's been said many times on this site. The value of any snake is what the consumer is willing to pay for it.
 
The value of any snake is what the consumer is willing to pay for it.

That is true but if the consumer fells that their will be a slow drop in price over time. They will be more willing to pay a higher price for their snakes. The sharp drop in market price is why I've stayed out of BP's for the most part. A few years back i paid $2200 for an albino female. This year i could have picked up a pair of albinos and still have $1200 in my pocket. I see corn snake following the same path.

On the other hand maybe this slow economic times will weed out alot of breeders. This could make some morphs rare again.
 
Walter,
I hate to say this but you are wrong, I think a person has the right to sell their animals at what ever price they want. It doesn't matter what time and money anyone else has put into a project.
Let me give you an example:
Two years ago I bought a Striped Goldust from Steven Wagner for $1,000. at the same time I bought a striped Butter from Don (SMR) for $325.00. I paid that much cause they had perfect stripes and so I thought that the babies would be more valuable cause of it. That's two years of room and board for them to breed this year.
I did not expect to get that much out of them but set the prices at $400.00 for a goldust stripe and $200.00 for a striped butter.
But I got lucky this year and a fellow breeder was wholesaling some Motley Charcoals for $40.00 a piece. I bought them and since I don't have much into them as soon as I get them I will be selling them for $65.00. That may be well below what some here are selling them for but who cares I didn't put alot of time into them and it wasn't a project that I worked on for years.

See what I mean?
LOL
John
 
Walter,
I hate to say this but you are wrong, I think a person has the right to sell their animals at what ever price they want. It doesn't matter what time and money anyone else has put into a project.
Let me give you an example:
Two years ago I bought a Striped Goldust from Steven Wagner for $1,000. at the same time I bought a striped Butter from Don (SMR) for $325.00. I paid that much cause they had perfect stripes and so I thought that the babies would be more valuable cause of it. That's two years of room and board for them to breed this year.
I did not expect to get that much out of them but set the prices at $400.00 for a goldust stripe and $200.00 for a striped butter.
But I got lucky this year and a fellow breeder was wholesaling some Motley Charcoals for $40.00 a piece. I bought them and since I don't have much into them as soon as I get them I will be selling them for $65.00. That may be well below what some here are selling them for but who cares I didn't put alot of time into them and it wasn't a project that I worked on for years.

See what I mean?
LOL
John

I hear ya John. I'm glad you feel that way because I will be selling stuff alot cheaper too now. As a matter of fact, I'm having a great sale now !!;)

I just hope everyone else feels the same as you do about selling snakes for what they want and not so much what they should be worth.

Thanks man,
Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
what they should be worth.

I believe that is the key. "What they should be worth." Who answers that question?

Sure, we all know the buyer determines what a snake will sell for, but ultimately who decides what it should be LISTED for in a sales ad? Someone says a "Bodunk Corn" - made up name to not single out any morph - is worth $500, but another breeder says it is only worth $200. Whether they sale or not, who is "RIGHT?" Obviously, there is no right. If you can't justify a price (I'm talking market analysis here as you would in ANY business), any price claimed to be RIGHT is just smoke up our mutual butts. Right, right, right....I'm tired of hearing a snake is worth X dollars without any justification behind why THAT particular number was chosen.

Take the charcoal motleys for less than $100. Sure, that "pisses" me off since I think they are still a $250+ snake......but I'm not going to hold a grudge or get mad. This is free enterprise. If John sets his bar at $65 and never wants to make more than that on them, he can go for it. I compete or I can't. Free enterprise. I wish him well. On thing to remember is that I am not responsible for his actions, but I am responsible for mine. If I sell a snake for $200 and someone else has it for $20, then I can look my buyer in the eye and say they got a snake worth $200 in my opinion. ...and mean it.

However, if I sell it for $200 to one customer and $20 to another, that first customer is likely NEVER going to come back and buy from me again. I lost their trust. THAT is one thing I won'ty do. If I buy a high end snake from a breeder and THEN see them drop the price big time, that is a breeder who will never get my money again. Actions have reactions. I don't care if someone else drops it because I didn't buy from that person.

Another topic...Someone mentioned backdoor deals and show specials. The idea that these don't drop prices is ludicrous. If someone gets it cheap, they have no reason to keep the snake high. Show specials hurt the average price just like low internet prices. It is a lie when someone says otherwise. I don't mean Rich's retirement. Sure, that'll have an effect, but that isn't like everyone at every show doing it - and THAT is happening! How can someone have the nerve to post a classified ad for $300 and then have it for 4100 at the show the next week...and NOT think that hurts the price? I have my theory on why some people are proponents of high internet prices and then drop them LOW at shows, and it isn't nice. I'll just leave it at that....lol.

Backdoor deals and prices under the table (I do NOT mean friend prices, of course) are the same thing as the above. I don't mean the wholesale lots, of course. I mean when this is the NORM for seller's actions. It's basically the same as a show price above.

Even the idea of "wholesale so they raise the prices when they sell them" isn't a valid statement any more. Not to pick on Tremper, but he buys a lot cheap...and then resales it for MUCH less than "retail" to the public. Again, I'm not mad. I'm just pointing it out. He's had EXTREMELY high white reverse Okeetees for something like $40/each. These have been actually selling for in the price range of $100 each for a while. Sell him those for $17/each, and he flips them (made up example) them for $40 less.........instead of the original breeder selling them for $40 himself...or even $50 (i.e., more than Tremper). Again, I'm just using Tremper for an example - I'm not meaning this as an insult and he may not actually buy this particular morph. Anyway, the person who sold them is a price dropper if they sell them for $50, but should they take $17 so someone else can sell them for $40?

Too many people don't understand business, but try to pretend they are runni9ng their snakes like it was a business. It's....so.....dang....funny, sometimes.


Oh, and do you know what may hurt prices more than someone else dropping prices? Keep talking about how much everything is hurting prices! It is like when you have a cut. It hurts the more someone keeps asking you how much it hurts....lol
 
I can barely give a cold away much less sell a snake for a reasonable price.. This past year I cut the breeding in half, so I didn;t produce some many babies.. Of course there was a couple big shots proclaiming last year that they indeed were ramping up their production for 09, instead of slowing things down.. Its called supply and demand, there is very little demand and the supply seems to be getting bigger.. It would not bother me to completely scrap any breeding plans for next year, although my very few breedings has never made any difference in the market place what so ever..

Regards.. Tim of T and J
 
Another topic...
How can someone have the nerve to post a classified ad for $300 and then have it for $100 at the show the next week...and NOT think that hurts the price? I have my theory on why some people are proponents of high internet prices and then drop them LOW at shows, and it isn't nice. I'll just leave it at that....lol.

Oh, and do you know what may hurt prices more than someone else dropping prices? Keep talking about how much everything is hurting prices! It is like when you have a cut. It hurts the more someone keeps asking you how much it hurts....lol

So I'm not the only one who thinks that doesn't make good business sense. Show buyers don't have to shell out the extra $35 + for shipping, so they are already saving, and I'll just leave out what the seller is saving, but it's a win/win for both parties without the need for a huge price reduction....

Oh, and by the way, that looks infected? :sidestep:
 
Let's just be honest here. When the following quotes reference "the person" or "someone" let us not pretend it is not obvious. And for those who don't get it, I am that person.

I've debated getting involved in this thread but I feel I should at least have my two cents contributed to the pot so everyone can hear the change jingle.

First off, I'd like to address the following:

I've had this meassage deleted by someone once already in the forsale section, simply because they can't handle the truth. If this one gets deleted, you will see who it's by and will know.

I listed a FOR SALE ad...not a post looking for commentary. I deleted Walter's reply as I found it quite disrespectful and because I can. No, not because I'm a moderator, but because I have that shiny little circle thing that entitles me to post for sale ads, edit them, and delete them if I feel so included. Now, this truth you speak of....let us address that.

Rich's low prices were set in Daytona for one reason and one reason only, because of his retirement and hopefully people understand this, at least I pray to god they do, and this WAS NOT a reflection of the future prices of cornsnake, however with someone else (no names mentioned) continuing these rediculous prices just because they spent more $$$ than what they should have, that IS what people will see and think.

my post is about someone who purchased alot of Rich's stuff and apparently spent more than they should have and are CONTINUING to offer these high end cornsnakes for REDICULOUS low prices......

...having to sell them a these low prices becuase someone decided they spent to mush $$$ in Daytona and now need to try and recoupe it.

You are right, my ad does claim I need to recover some money because I bought a bunch of Rich's stuff and had a bunch of show expenses. I did and I do. However, I am not hurting for money right now and did not over extend myself. In fact, this Daytona show was the best Daytona Show I ever did. I sold and adult pair of blacktail cribos, several albino blood pythons, just about all my kingsnakes and some nicely priced adult corns, kings and ratsnakes as well as a couple wholesale lots. Considering the cornsnake competition from Rich, I did well. Plus, if you've read any of my ads before....I like to razzle and dazzle. It is advertising and it is my shtick. Am I going broke. Nope. I could sit on everything I bought and still be fine. Do I want to sell animals? Sure I do....who doesn't? That being said, my prices are not an indicator of my desperation. They are an indicator of what I believe they are worth in the market in this day and time.

But, in the interest of full disclosure, I did buy the butters stripes and golddust stripes because I got them for a good price and I think I can make a few bucks on them. Is making money a bad thing? I also have at least two more shows left and people love these morphs. Conversely, the reason I bought several sunkissed lavenders is I have a very big vested interest in sunkissed morphs. You may call my prices ridiculous, but the sunkissed lavenders are priced ABOVE the starting price Rich had 2008 animals listed for on FRIDAY! Maybe that in and of itself is the ridiculous thing.

...it's hurting the breeders who have spent years working on these projects to produce these high end morphs...

Joe,
This is totally about NOT CONTINUING selling our corns at Rich's retirment prices and have some pride in the years of work we all do to produce those special high end morphs.

I'm trying to explain that selling high end snakes for example Sunkissed Lavender $150, Golddust Stripe $100 etc... is hurting those that spent 2 - 4 years producing these and the actual value of these snakes.

Let's play these quotes out. The poor people who worked so hard at producing Sunkissed Lavenders only to be outdone by Jeff who is selling them for MORE than Rich Z was selling them at Daytona. How about we take names of all the people crushed by this current sale. In fact, let us time travel to 2008 and see who produced sunkissed lavenders. Hmmmm....well, publicly it appears we have three winners Rich Z, Chuck Pritzel, and me. There might be others, but certainly nobody that is very public about it. Let's fast forward to 2009. Again, the people producing Sunkissed Lavenders.....Hi Rich, Hi Chuck....oh...and there is me again. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Again, there may be others but my current understanding is that it is these three.

NOW....let's come back to the super sale going on. Who is really getting hurt here?

I'll help you out.....
Sunkissed Lavenders at Serpenco's Daytona table in 2008: $1000
Sunkissed Lavenders at Serpenco's Daytona table in 2009: $100
Having to change your price stickers from $700 to $100 because of someone's retirement sale: Priceless.

With the amount of sunkissed lavenders that hit the market due to Rich's sale, there are going to be few people left who want them. Am I supposed to price them at $700? Sure, those will sell. :poke:

It should not go without saying, however, that I did produce and purchase several other sunkissed morphs....sunkissed caramel, sunkissed motley, sunkissed blood, sunkissed anery, etc.....do you see THOSE on my sale list? Nope. I value those quite a bit more and I believe the market will too. There are just too many people out there now with sunkissed lavenders that they will become a cheaper sunkissed morph. As much as I want to see high prices on them, it is not going to happen. On the other hand, the other morphs were not as plentiful on Rich's table so the market will still have some demand for them. Not everybody and their friend got the other sunkissed stuff.

The sunkissed lavender ship has sailed but the other sunkissed morphs are still tied up in port and some are even still in the dry dock being built.

Go forth and conquer.
 
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It's been ten months and a few hours since I got my first pet snake in close to 3 decades. Today I have 79. Fifteen of them are not corns. In the interum I've had the Internet/mail-order rare plant nursery, and done some antiques/collectibles/hardware sales online, done a few flea markets, and an assortment of other venues.

A friend of mine who's passed away (GRHS) once said to me "Loose lips sink ships". Bearing his words in mind, and finding websites like this, are sharp contrast. I suppose when a new morph appears from a particuliar breeding, and one has the opportunity to brag (human nature), that is a good thing to do from a business perspective, to generate interest in the "new thing"; to create fervor; to create interest in it from persons with wallets.

All the same, the persons whom develop these new morphs should know when to quiet themselves. But they cannot. They feel compelled to respond to every online question; and give away the information regarding how the new morph was developed, FREELY. Even though they spent years, decades, time, money, personal investment to develop a new thing, somehow it is suddenly all worthless information, to be given away for the asking, to gain some instantaneous "feedback", or "rep points". Perhaps if they were able to ask themselves first "Is this a question I should respond to?", then so many of these new morph varieties would not plumet in realized profits so rapidly. Perhaps by typing words that stay online forever, some breeders have enabled many newbies on the block (thank you very much, by the way) to get into the breeding biz. So now they have more competition than ever before. There are many pro-breeders whose names I do not see here, giving away priceless information for free. Maybe they like their feet without gunshot holes in them. I really do not understand the rush towards "diffused" or "washed out colors". But then I'm not as cultured in cornsnake madness as my mentors. Perhaps 'dull' is fashionable for the moment?

Is it in my best business interest to sell hatchlings, or should I raise them awhile and let their colors develop? A few dozen 12-14 cent pinkies might pay off better, and provide some reassurance to potential customers that the baby snake is indeed feeding, especially if they've had a bad experience in the past of their own, or their human child had an unfortunate occurance.

I've seen on other threads that some persons feel that purchasing a bulk load of snakelets from RichZ, and reselling them on this site would be "wrong". It is a statement of consideration, and that is a commendable thing. It is also presumptious. Has anyone corresponded with him, you know...actually "asked him"? Yes, I bought 2 snakes from RichZ at the Daytona show. I also bought 10 others from 7 other breeders/dealers. Not counting the 3 prepaid "pickups in daytona" from 3 other equally swell peeps. Just because someone has something for sale at a live event for WAYless than the advertised online price is-- does not mean I necessarily want it.


I understand how retail works. So if this person bought up his stock and then came on his site and sold them for hundreds of dollars more that would be the definition of tacky.
Are you absolutely certain?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tacky

you certainly cannot expect Tesseras to sell at $1200 per male forever...

One might fit into my breeding plans, but I am not interested in producing copies of what another breeder is producing.

Walter, one snakes value to you will be completely different to someone else. People will only pay what they think a snake is worth.

But in all honesty, who is the one to set the bench mark and publicly dictate what the worth of one particular animal/morph is?

Should breeders not be setting the prices based on the buyers and what they can and can't afford. After all... it's just snakes.

For example I think CB candoia are worth hundreds for the time and effort put into establishing babies and considering the difficulty in keeping them alive. But I know buyers don't want to pay hundreds when they can get WC for pennies.... Taking this into consideration I would be one of these people to shoot myself in the foot and hold my ground and accept nothing less than my original asking price. Whether I sell those babies or not is another question. I just know know that whoever has the money to buy them knows what they are, feels they are worth the same as me and will enjoy them as much as me...

All buyers are different. They do not all think alike. They are all individual morphs, in their own individual specialized ways. I've often wondered why so many wild caught snakes are still imported, when there are sufficient numbers of them in captivity, successfully breeding. Perhaps the breeders want the imoprts to continue to come in, to help to keep the prices down on the captive bred ones. Frankly, it is my personal opinion that if importation was severely regulated, with regards to thousands of kinds of animals being bred in captivity, then there would be more demand (vs supply) for those kinds, and higher prices could be realized. However, cornsnake morphs are not wild collected; merely produced until the market is flooded and the bottom falls out for a particuliar morph variety. Well said, btw.


I am shocked that a sunkissed lav is going for $150. To me that animal is worth sooooo much more. Heck, lavender stripes are tripple that price (from some sellers) in the UK nevermind sunkissed combos...

As I staggered thru the Daytona show, experiencing visual orgasms, I looked at words written on deli cups, and then compared the words on the cups to the actual item in the cups. It seems to me that many persons never learned the correct names of colors. If that lavender snake actually is Lavender, sure, it's worth every penny of 350 or whatever. But so many of them are some other color; however "SwampMuckBrown" ain't a good retailable name and'll never be a good seller. Perhaps "Burnt Mauve" or "Petrified Turd" would be a better color description for what's actually in that bucket. But if they mis-spelled Lavenrer, then it was no more than a Guci Style Knockoff. Some remedial English, and a visit to the Crayola Factory may be in order here, but far be it for me to say who should be on that Denure Tours bus.

But then I'm the newbie, so much yet to learn about this new biz-adventure.
Thanks for sharing, and warm regards. dave
 
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I have heard from quite a few breeders and hobbtists that these prices are hurting them. Just sayin.
 
All the same, the persons whom develop these new morphs should know when to quiet themselves. But they cannot. They feel compelled to respond to every online question; and give away the information regarding how the new morph was developed, FREELY. Even though they spent years, decades, time, money, personal investment to develop a new thing, somehow it is suddenly all worthless information, to be given away for the asking, to gain some instantaneous "feedback", or "rep points".

Ummmm, that might work in plants, but there is NO SECRET about how morphs are produced in cornsnakes. You don't NEED to tell people how to make a sunkissed lavender.....lol. On new morphs (like the origin of the sunkissed gene), you do need to tell people where it comes from. If not, people start yelling hybrid, etc....and THAT drops the price faster than anything if there is doubt added to breeder secrecy.

Soooo, things are different in diffeent businesses. The time to shut up would have been 15-20 years ago when they were first learning to breed them. Of course, the demand only exploded BECAUSE the average person could now breed them. Hmmmm, maybe the "market crash" is the inevitable result of any such business as this. Anyone research the trend in parakeet breeding? If not, do so...and see the state of the breeder's market today.
 
One of my customers breeds the most beautiful English Budgies I have ever seen!! I'll have to ask her how much she is able to sell them for next time she's in.
 
I've already told myself I don't want any more budgies...but if I could get my hands on an anthracite one I'd have to rethink my position.
 
On new morphs (like the origin of the sunkissed gene), you do need to tell people where it comes from. If not, people start yelling hybrid, etc....and THAT drops the price faster than anything if there is doubt added to breeder secrecy.

Soooo, things are different in diffeent businesses. The time to shut up would have been 15-20 years ago when they were first learning to breed them. Of course, the demand only exploded BECAUSE the average person could now breed them. Hmmmm, maybe the "market crash" is the inevitable result of any such business as this. Anyone research the trend in parakeet breeding? If not, do so...and see the state of the breeder's market today.

This is GREAT. Now I have a new tool in my box! One which can manipulate priceless information out of pro breeders by simply saying "It's a hybrid". Just mention the thumbscrews and they'll sing like a budgie. This is incredibly excellent free information. Thanks for sharing!

In China.... out of lead......

I'd assumed they were made of Melamine. I stand corrected. Again. Whoa is me.
 
I hate to say this but you are wrong, I think a person has the right to sell their animals at what ever price they want. It doesn't matter what time and money anyone else has put into a project.

Funny, only a couple months ago, you had different notions on who sets prices.

I think that posting a price list with $20.00 for an Ultramel blood is a poor joke, some of these people look at you guy's price lists as the price set for the season.I know it's been a tough year for price cuts but it's not going to be to long at this rate when there are going to be no corns over $200.00 and the breeders that rely on selling snakes as their only source of income will be out of business.
John

Of course, you had edited that post that post you made back in February. I do not remember exactly what had been said, but you were quite certain that prices are set by friends of yours. Now breeders can set their own price?
Why the change of attitude/idea?

I am confused.


Let me preempt a response of "it's your fault the prices have dropped". I was not at Daytona and was not envolved in any way with Rich's retirement, and thus the release of many "high end" animals on the market. Also, if you look at any price list that I have you will see that I have not changed my prices. So John, what say you, why the change?

The fact is you vehemently defended "price setting" then.
 
People change. They may change the way you want them to. Maybe not. You can't make them change. Change is something which comes from within their own selves. Try not to take it personally, unless it is you who is doing the changing. And you'll have my unconditional support. And respect.
 
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