Live Feeding

[HaisseM]

Yup, like I said, being "humane" is not a concern with certain.....people.

Seriously you're 45 and choose to make the most childish attacks on people. I feel like i'm in the 5th grade and my teacher is trying to trick me into doing something their way.. Come on dude, if you can't respond to a post without that nonesense... (i'll leave it at this for now)

 

[batwrangler]

Again, I don't mind the difference of opinion. I have not once said I'm right you're wrong and you have to do it my way (not directed towards you just in general)

I've never once asked a mod to delete a post that challenged my position

All I've said about post are, NO PERSONAL ATTACKS/INSULTS. Trust me I want to strike back, but I'm trying to act like an adult.

You said earlier, "It's really not necessary and should be stopped or MOD's should warn the person... "

I took this statement, and others like it in other threads, to be a complaint intending to cause the moderators to take action. I'm sorry I misinterpreted your intent.

 

[HaisseM]

You said earlier, "It's really not necessary and should be stopped or MOD's should warn the person... "

I took this statement, and others like it in other threads, to be a complaint intending to cause the moderators to take action. I'm sorry I misinterpreted your intent.

Here is my entire post

Without getting too off topic here..... If someone ask a question, their is no problem in giving your opinion on the matter, but is it really necessary to try and insult the person when you don't agree with their outlook. I mean serious I try and ignore certain responses because I can tell they are looking to get a raise or to catch attention, but truth be told. It's really not necessary and should be stopped or MOD's should warn the person... :-offtopic

Like i stated before, I don't mind other opinions, and I think its been stated before I don't have the majority position on certain topics so I would expect people to disagree. What annoys me are the insults people tie to their post when they don't agree with someone.

Damn, and I was soo hoping not to hijack this thread with stuff like this

 

[hartsock]

1) live prey, mouse or rat, can injure snake.....
2) stunned prey can "wake up" or gain their senses back....see #1
3) live prey can have parasites which have not been killed off by freezing for 28 days

I could go on, but three top reasons to not feed live if you don't have too....those are enough to say to the original poster don't do it. They wanted to feed it more or less as a treat or thinking there might be some benefit to it....there is none, if your snake is eating okay, don't mess with it. Doing that is irresponisble ownership, IMO (actually I truly believe that goes on my opinion but had to put that there so some of you don't freak out!)

Now with that said and me stating that I am against live feeding...I have two sand boas who had not eaten since I got them in Feb. Of the three I got one on f/t after 4 months of refusing, now not a problem. The other 2 I just got to eat last week by offering them live. which I will do another 3 or 4 times and then start to switch them over to f/t. If you can avoid feeding live, you need to do that, better for the snake all around, but sometimes you can't. However, make sure it is the snakes choice and not your own....I know plenty of people who feed live that are just too lazy to attempt the f/t and they make us excuses.

 

[starsevol]

The one who started this thread stated that his corn was over 5 feet long.
Obviously, if it had never eaten a live mouse before, it had to be eating something.
He asked how to feed live safely, OR IF HE SHOULD DO IT AT ALL.
I said, don't do it! Besides the bite-risk there is the risk of the snake not going back to thawed.
No reason to do it, really.

And my opinion about people who purposely hurt an animal FOR NO REASON, stands.

 

[hartsock]

1) live prey, mouse or rat, can injure snake.....
2) stunned prey can "wake up" or gain their senses back....see #1
3) live prey can have parasites which have not been killed off by freezing for 28 days

I could go on, but three top reasons to not feed live if you don't have too....those are enough to say to the original poster don't do it. They wanted to feed it more or less as a treat or thinking there might be some benefit to it....there is none, if your snake is eating okay, don't mess with it. Doing that is irresponisble ownership, IMO (actually I truly believe that goes beyond my opinion but had to put that there so some of you don't freak out!)

Now with that said and me stating that I am against live feeding...I have two sand boas who had not eaten since I got them in Feb. Of the three I got one on f/t after 4 months of refusing, now not a problem. The other 2 I just got to eat last week by offering them live. which I will do another 3 or 4 times and then start to switch them over to f/t. If you can avoid feeding live, you need to do that, better for the snake all around, but sometimes you can't. However, make sure it is the snakes choice and not your own....I know plenty of people who feed live that are just too lazy to attempt the f/t and they make up excuses.

There I fixed some of my typos....LOL

 

[starsevol]

^^^ eh compared to some of my posts, that was a walk in the park

 

[HaisseM]

1) live prey, mouse or rat, can injure snake.....
2) stunned prey can "wake up" or gain their senses back....see #1
3) live prey can have parasites which have not been killed off by freezing for 28 days

I could go on, but three top reasons to not feed live if you don't have too....those are enough to say to the original poster don't do it. They wanted to feed it more or less as a treat or thinking there might be some benefit to it....there is none, if your snake is eating okay, don't mess with it. Doing that is irresponisble ownership, IMO (actually I truly believe that goes on my opinion but had to put that there so some of you don't freak out!)

Now with that said and me stating that I am against live feeding...I have two sand boas who had not eaten since I got them in Feb. Of the three I got one on f/t after 4 months of refusing, now not a problem. The other 2 I just got to eat last week by offering them live. which I will do another 3 or 4 times and then start to switch them over to f/t. If you can avoid feeding live, you need to do that, better for the snake all around, but sometimes you can't. However, make sure it is the snakes choice and not your own....I know plenty of people who feed live that are just too lazy to attempt the f/t and they make us excuses.

So how do you feed them live? Do you just drop the rat/mouse in the cage or do you take certain precautions? What precautions do you take when you have no choice but to feed live?

 

[ssmith_1187]

HaisseM,

For me at least, it's not personal. What people have an issue with are your husbandry practices (see the "Corns living together?? Yes or no?" thread).

You talked about risk and how we assume risks each and every day in our lives…yada-yada-yada.

What people are seeing, by you letting them, are those risky practices. I'm sorry but on this board you WILL be called out on them.

Regards,
Steve

 

[jazzgeek]

I agree that feeding live may be necessary in rare situations and I don't object to that at all.

As I mentioned up-thread, my snakes are all too happy to constrict f/t mice, so the exercise argument doesn't work for me.

Some of mine do, some of mine don't. As I see it, it's dependent on the individual snake.

If you're breeding, or your breeder female is double-clutching, I certainly can see the advantage of "extra exercise". But again, as I previously stated, I feed F/T; constriction is the ONE advantage I can see in feeding live in "normal captive conditions".

I also have no objection to some creatures dying to feed other creatures, but I do strenuously object to unnecessary cruelty, and barring the absolute need to feed live to an otherwise non-feeding snake, I believe feeding live, even feeding stunned live, is unnecessarily cruel.

I've seen similar arguments in "hunting v. non-hunting" threads. I encourage anyone who believes that hunting is cruel to tour the Tyson chicken or Oscar Mayer slaughterhouses.....if you'd be allowed in.

That said, the "degrees of cruelty" you claim - "unnecessarily cruel" (as opposed to "necessarily cruel", I would presume) - are subjective to the individual.

As distasteful as cervical dislocation is, it is an approved, humane way to dispatch feeder mice, and if one is not feeding frozen thawed (which will have been humanely euthanized with CO2), it is the most responsible way to go.

I'm always curious as to what governing body proclaims such methods - ANY methods, even - as "approved". Approved by whom? The Council on Cornsnake Relations? The American Veterinary Association?

To go off on a tangent, why are the "approved" methods given such innocuous terms? Would stunning be more acceptable if it were coined "thumping" or "neurological interruption"?

After all, "cervical dislocation" is just a pretty way to say "I broke its neck".

Cervical dislocation is usually performed with a hemostat or some such device to secure the rodent.

<Ahem> "Neurological interruption" is usually performed with the flick of the forefinger or middle finger.

I'll leave the question of which method is more "humane" open to debate.

regards,
jazz

 

[starsevol]

It's not personal for me either.
Not really.
But acting like a know-it-all does tend to rub people the wrong way.

 

[HaisseM]

HaisseM,

For me at least, it's not personal. What people have an issue with are your husbandry practices (see the "Corns living together?? Yes or no?" thread).

You talked about risk and how we assume risks each and every day in our lives…yada-yada-yada.

What people are seeing, by you letting them, are those risky practices. I'm sorry but on this board you WILL be called out on them.

Regards,
Steve

Yes I have risky practices compared to others on this board, and thats understandable. I do understand some people take things more seriously than others and have no problem with that. Heck like i said before I don't mind being called out, but what do you mean called out? By saying their are other options? or by saying i'm a horrible person, because to me, saying their are other options is closer to calling me out then saying i'm a horrible person

 

[ssmith_1187]

and thats understandable

Actually, it's not...but OK.

some people take things more seriously than others

When you're responsible for the care of another living creature (parent, spouse, child, dog, cat, snake, mouse, etc.)...that's about as serious as it gets.

Regards,
Steve

 

[starsevol]

^^^ wish I could rep you for that!

 

[hartsock]

So how do you feed them live? Do you just drop the rat/mouse in the cage or do you take certain precautions? What precautions do you take when you have no choice but to feed live?

Well with these ones, here was the thing....I threw the mouse in without doing a thing to it. Yes, that is more risky, much more than stunning it or freshly killing it, but it was one way or another.

The boas were at the place of loosing weight rapidly, one had been gravid, but due to care before I got her, she had trouble with the clutch and all the eggs were lost, so she hadn't eaten in some time. They were also wild caught from Africa (I didn't know that at the time, was lied to) so it was hard to tell when their last meal was, and finally, they are sand boas. They are secretive, they hunt by being under the substrate and the prey walking over or near their heads. Having one laying there twiching wouldn't have helped, dead ones laid all night, trap them in a seperate bin with a dead one and it stayed all night as well. I tried every trick I heard of. But the boas were at the point that in a few more weeks, there would have been no turning back, so I took the risk of a bite. What I hope is to jump start their feeding response so I can get them on F/T. The female first refused live as well, when I tried her the second time, I had to cover the cage completely alone, very risky, but I was at no choice. So far I haven't had a corn refuse f/t and while I did have a stubborn feeder, we came to see eye to eye on the matter, lol.

 

[HaisseM]

Actually, it's not...but OK.



When you're responsible for the care of another living creature (parent, spouse, child, dog, cat, snake, mouse, etc.)...that's about as serious as it gets.

Regards,
Steve

That's where we disagree, I don't consider a dog/cat/snake/mouse etc to be on the same level as a parent/spouse/child (human being) And I would assume you feel the same way unless you are a vegan and even then their are points to disagree on, but thats a another conversation.

 

[jazzgeek]

When you're responsible for the care of another living creature (parent, spouse, child, dog, cat, snake, mouse, etc.)...that's about as serious as it gets.

So are you saying that you're as serious in taking care of your snakes as you are in taking care of your child? Does the fact that I'm two days late in feeding my yearling corns imply that I'm more serious in taking care of my Lab than my snakes?

Just curious.

regards,
jazz

 

[batwrangler]

I've seen similar arguments in "hunting v. non-hunting" threads. I encourage anyone who believes that hunting is cruel to tour the Tyson chicken or Oscar Mayer slaughterhouses.....if you'd be allowed in.

That said, the "degrees of cruelty" you claim - "unnecessarily cruel" (as opposed to "necessarily cruel", I would presume) - are subjective to the individual.

I'm always curious as to what governing body proclaims such methods - ANY methods, even - as "approved". Approved by whom? The Council on Cornsnake Relations? The American Veterinary Association?

To go off on a tangent, why are the "approved" methods given such innocuous terms? Would stunning be more acceptable if it were coined "thumping" or "neurological interruption"?

After all, "cervical dislocation" is just a pretty way to say "I broke its neck".

Cervical dislocation is usually performed with a hemostat or some such device to secure the rodent.

<Ahem> "Neurological interruption" is usually performed with the flick of the forefinger or middle finger.

I'll leave the question of which method is more "humane" open to debate.

regards,
jazz

I have no problem with responsible hunters either. Nor really with calling a spade a spade: breaking a mouse's neck causes almost instant death, which is why it is deemed "humane". I suppose if you can guarantee that your stunned mouse is unconscious and isn't going to regain consciousness before it's dead, I'd consider stunning humane, too, but you can't.

The people I know who break feeder's necks, do it by hand, and don't use hemostats.

As for who determines the humaneness of killing methods: vets, anti-cruelty laws, and government and laboratory guides to the humane keeping and killing of lab and food animals.

Possibly "cruel" has such negative connotations that "necessary cruelty" comes across as an oxymoron, but yes, I believe that sometimes causing pain is necessary or at least unavoidable.

 

[ssmith_1187]

And I would assume you feel the same way

Indeed I do...would I put my snake before my children, no. However, the care and well being of my snake is something I do take very seriously, unlike others.

Does the fact that I'm two days late in feeding my yearling corns imply that I'm more serious in taking care of my Lab than my snakes?

Apparently so...geeze Dale :grin01:

Regards,
Steve

 

[HaisseM]

I have no problem with responsible hunters either. Nor really with calling a spade a spade: breaking a mouse's neck causes almost instant death, which is why it is deemed "humane". I suppose if you can guarantee that your stunned mouse is unconscious and isn't going to regain consciousness before it's dead, I'd consider stunning humane, too, but you can't.

The people I know who break feeder's necks, do it by hand, and don't use hemostats.

As for who determines the humaneness of killing methods: vets, anti-cruelty laws, and government and laboratory guides to the humane keeping and killing of lab and food animals.

Possibly "cruel" has such negative connotations that "necessary cruelty" comes across as an oxymoron, but yes, I believe that sometimes causing pain is necessary or at least unavoidable.

Can you guarantee that when you try to break its' neck, it do it on the first try? and ALMOST instant death still means the animal feels some type of pain