Miami Corns

[larryg]

I'll start a new thread about this, since I have new information...

First, Len Krysko sold a lot of his collection, including his Miami Corns. The Miami Corns were sold to someone outside of the USA, and I should have gotten another hatchling from him last summer, if I was going to (ever.)

As to where his former breeding colony was collected, he said "the adults that I had were collected in various areas of Miami including the Redlands to the Nuclear Power Plant areas." One should note that Dade County has been called Miami-Dade County for almost 10 years now, and the vast majority of the people say "Miami" when referring to the general metropolitan area, even if outside the City of Miami city limits. My own WC specimen is from near the eastern edge of Biscayne National Park, perhaps further east than most Len's, from the information he gave.

As far as the question of terminology, Dr. Kenney Krisko said Miami Phase should only be used to refer to the color pattern, and that it is not exclusive to the Miami locale. He also suggested that Okeetee Phase is nothing more than a color phase. Simply calling them Miami Corns or Okeetee Corns might be more appropriate, if trying to suggest locale. For example, there is usually little confusion when someone says Colombia Boa.

He said that even though nothing has been published about Miami (Miami-Dade or whatever) locality Corns possibly representing some sort of locality variation because of differences in size, feeding habits, and possibly number of eggs per clutch... "it warrants further study." When it's a little warmer here (it's actually cold in Florida this week), I may visit him with 2 or 3 snakes and find out what he means and how such a study would be accomplished.

They are undoubtedly smaller. I went to see some proven breeders for sale (locality lines) and the females only weighed about 250 grams maximum, and they are 4 or 5 years old at least. He also had a 'non locality Miami Phase' that was nice-looking, but obviously much larger and thicker than the locality Miamis. His locality Miamis are from Homestead, which is in southern Miami-Dade County. They looked similar to mine, mostly. He pointed out that the Miami saddles often looked sort of 'stretched through' or pulled apart, where you can see the background showing through a bit. I've noticed the same thing. They also tend to have at least a moderate amount of black checkering on the underside (a lot more than the average Okeetee, for instance.) The non-locality Miami Phase had a belly like an Okeetee, with a relatively small amount of black checkering.

 

[John Albrecht]

Interesting Post

When I lived in Florida (30+ years ago) Miami corns were actually called "Homestead" corns. Somehow, over the course of time, the name changed. Granted, you can collect gray background colored corns all over southeastern Florida, but in the old days the best looking ones came from the Homestead area. In my experience, the runners up after that were the ones from just west of Ft. Lauderdale. How we came to identify the morph with the name Miami is beyond me. I assume, as with the Okeetee identification problem, it had something to do with marketing. I'm guessing that since a larger "quantity" of the morph came from the Miami area that the name took over time. But to this day I've never seen a Miami locality corn look as good as a Homestead corn.

Just my .02... ask anybody, mine is worth at least .015.

-John Albrecht

 

[Rich Z]

LOL! Well, I'll tell you how the term "Miami Phase" came into being.

Many years ago, I was talking to Bill and Kathy Love about the strain of cornsnakes that came out of the Miami/Homestead areas. I think I got my original stock around 1975 thru 1978, if I remember correctly. Matter of fact, I think we were going over to that area to scrounge around in some pet shops and dealers looking for some of them that had been locally collected. Somewhere during that trip, I mentioned the term "Miami Phase" corns, and Bill asked "Is that what these are going to be called?" All I said was "Well, sounds as good as anything, I guess....."

And the rest is history........

 

[larryg]

The only problem is that 'Phase' refers only to a color pattern and has nothing to do with locality. That's why I prefer 'Miami Corns' to indicate a locality connection.

I have heard Homestead has some of the nicest specimens, but the ones I saw from there didn't seem any nicer than the ones I already have from other parts of southern Miami-Dade. I would like to see more from Homestead, though.

 

[John Albrecht]

Aha!!!

Somehow I knew you (Rich) and Bill were probably behind this, at least in part.

I remember talking to you and Bill about the terms "zigzag" and "aztec". Little did I know then, that all this stuff would become part of cornsnake language and history.

Whatever happened to my line of "zipper" corns? Did they die out? LOL

 

[Joejr14]

Give it a rest, Larry. There is no specified locality boundaries for what would be a 'Miami' cornsnake. Until you can give a precise locale boundary for what would be Miami corns, your argument is dead in the water, no matter what Dr. Krysko says.

 

[larryg]

Give it a rest, Larry. There is no specified locality boundaries for what would be a 'Miami' cornsnake. Until you can give a precise locale boundary for what would be Miami corns, your argument is dead in the water, no matter what Dr. Krysko says.

I doubt either Dr. Krysko, his dad, myself, or anyone else keeping and breeding Miami Corns is seeking your validation or approval, Jr.

 

[Joejr14]

I doubt either Dr. Krysko, his dad, myself, or anyone else keeping and breeding Miami Corns is seeking your validation or approval, Jr.

So Larry, why are you seeking our approval?

 

[Rich Z]

The only problem is that 'Phase' refers only to a color pattern and has nothing to do with locality. That's why I prefer 'Miami Corns' to indicate a locality connection.

I have heard Homestead has some of the nicest specimens, but the ones I saw from there didn't seem any nicer than the ones I already have from other parts of southern Miami-Dade. I would like to see more from Homestead, though.

I think this same argument, but with some reverse logic, has been applied to people using the "Okeetee" label. But the logic will fail at the same place, regardless if we are talking about "Okeetee" or "Miami". When dealing with anything live considered "locality" there has to be an arbitrary line chosen where those on one side are on the "inside" and those on the other side considered "outside". This all falls apart because an animal moving from one side to the other of that arbitrary line changes it's label based on where it is at the moment. It doesn't matter where that line is drawn, the arbitrariness of it will always be the same. With that in mind, if you can say that a "Miami" corn is not truly a Miami corn because it happened to be outside of this boundary when it was captured, then by the same logic, ANYTIME an animal in captivity moves outside that boundary, even when not under it's own power or choice, then it must also be considered to no longer be a Miami corn.

 

[abell82]

As far as the question of terminology, Dr. Kenney Krisko said Miami Phase should only be used to refer to the color pattern, and that it is not exclusive to the Miami locale. He also suggested that Okeetee Phase is nothing more than a color phase. Simply calling them Miami Corns or Okeetee Corns might be more appropriate, if trying to suggest locale. For example, there is usually little confusion when someone says Colombia Boa.

He said that even though nothing has been published about Miami (Miami-Dade or whatever) locality Corns possibly representing some sort of locality variation because of differences in size, feeding habits, and possibly number of eggs per clutch... "it warrants further study." .....
They are undoubtedly smaller....

Umm,... he said: "Miami Phase should only be used to refer to the color pattern, and that it is not exclusive to the Miami locale. He also suggested that Okeetee Phase is nothing more than a color phase."
So what he is saying is there is nothing to indicate a locality connection? :shrugs:

So let's move on to the second part:
"He said that even though nothing has been published about Miami (Miami-Dade or whatever) locality Corns possibly representing some sort of locality variation because of differences in size, feeding habits, and possibly number of eggs per clutch... "it warrants further study." .... They are undoubtedly smaller...."
So if it were established that the Miami / Homestead corn was different what does that then do to the Lavender line, the Carmel line, etc? They would all become a hybrid, or intergrade depending on who you talk to much like a Creamsicle. :eek1: That would destroy the "purity" of many breeding lines. This means you MAY run into a lot of resistance should you be able to prove that they are there own species. However should you prove them to be there own species the sellers/breeders, of Miami/Homestead corns would then have to say whether they are "pure" "Miami" or Corn x Miami.
See where this is going? :grin01:

 

[kathylove]

When we first got some Miamis from looking through the big piles of them at Pet Farm back in the old days, we were told that they were mostly collected by locals from southern Dade County, around Homestead. But "Homestead corns" would only make non-Floridians scratch their heads - where is that?? Miami was a much better name, since most everyone knew where that was! And it was close enough for people to get the idea.

Unlike with the okeetees, I never planned to keep Miamis "pure locality" (whatever that is!) I was just trying to produce a "light phase Blair's king" in a corn snake, and these southern Dade snakes were a good start.

Now that locality has become such a hot button topic and one that I don't really want to deal with, I have decided to not sell anything as a locality animal, unless I catch or buy a w.c. or F1 snake directly from the person who caught it. Otherwise, it will be a "phase" of whatever it is. I plan to make my '06 list comments as such. Those who are really into specific localities more than anything else should probably stick with catching or buying only w.c. and F1 animals too. Once a line has been selectively bred by PEOPLE rather than MOTHER NATURE for many generations, it is no longer a "locality pure" line IMHO, no matter where the ancestors originated from. That is because the average progeny will probably look and act very differently from Mother Nature's average progeny from the same lines, after generations of artificial selection for whatever we like. So I guess I don't see the point, unless you are sticking to w.c. and maybe F1 babies.

I am not saying that a breeder should not try to keep a line "pure" (however that breeder defines that term) if they enjoy that pursuit. I am just saying that I personally don't agree that it is possible (or even desirable) to make the same choices that natural selection would have made, thus making the whole locality issue something that I have lost interest in as far as a practical part of my breeding plans.

 

[Rich Z]

I've got an interesting experience to tell that happened to me a long while back that is relevant to the issue of "purity" in wild caught strains. This story doesn't apply to corn snakes, but I think nearly everyone will catch the drift of the lesson it teaches.

Back at one of the original Tampa shows, I had brought a bunch of newly hatched gray banded king snakes (yes, I used to work with them) to sell there, and one of the other vendors came along and asked for a price for the whole batch. Heck, they weren't feeding yet, and I told him so, so I cut him a really good deal. He took them off to his table before the show even opened up the doors, and I breathed a sigh of relief. Worse comes to worse, I didn't have to take those gray bands back home with me to try to get them feeding.

Well the show was real slow, and not too many things were selling. Especially those gray banded kings the guy had on his table. Sunday at break down, I walked by the guy's table and it looked like he still had every one of them that he bought from me still on his hands. I felt pretty bad for the guy, because I knew how finicky baby gray bands can be to get feeding. I told the guy I was sorry he kind of got stuck with all of them, but he acted completely unconcerned about it at all. He said, "Hell, I don't care. I've got a trip coming up to west Texas in the spring and I'll just take these along and sell them as fresh caught animals to the collectors out there from my motel room. The guys out there will snap them up in a heart beat. All I have to do is to keep them alive till then."

So I can't help but wonder how many times this guy has done something like that, much less how many other people do the same thing each year, and people happily cart off their "locality caught" gray banded kings, that are certainly anything BUT locality animals. And nor would I believe for an instant that this flim-flam would be unique only to the gray banded king snakes.

Personally, unless I actually catch a snake myself or am standing there watching while someone else catches it, I am not going to claim ANY snake I sell is a locality animal at all.

 

[carol]

:bowdown: Thank you Kathy and Rich!
Larry, it's great you choose to believe this novelty exists, and if you can convince your buyers there is something magically special about your Miamis... no one is trying to stop you. You mentioned you are really not seeking approval from any of us.... likewise, none of us are seeking approval from you or your legendary doctor.
I don't believe pure Miami localities exist, no one is attempting to force you to believe the same. YOU were the one stating that there can't be such thing as a Miami Phase. YOU were the one dictating that "Miami" couldn't be a Phase and a Locality, which even your Dr. doesn't agree with. You started with comments such as....

The issue of whether Miami Phase is a locality or a 'look' is just as undecided as whether Okeetee Phase is a look or a locality.

The issue on whether Miamis are a Phase is not undecided. There is just no denying that the vast majority calls cornsnakes with a certain look "Miami Phase". Whether or not they are a locality is what is undecided.

I don't think the Locality Miamis are inferior to anybody else's "silver Corns", which is what they should be called, in my opinion (if they are not from Locality Miami lines.)

Want to make a deal? I don't tell you what to call your corns if you don't tell me what to call mine. You tried to cop out on this earlier saying you weren't serious, but I think you were.... until you realized it wasn't going to happen.

Because Miami Phase is the name that has always been used. There is no reason to change it now.

This was your reason on why you HAVE to call your localities "Miamis" despite the fact that most are not collected there, and despite the fact that most people do not view them as a locality. Now we have the information from the horses mouth that it was never intended to be a name to suggest pure locality. Ever since the majority of people have not viewed it as a locality.

You came riding in on your horse saying that only you and a select few REALLY have Miamis, and the rest of us are wrong. While you are at it, why don't you decide that Mexican Food has to be made in Mexico to earn that label. Go try telling all the Mexican Restaurants, and all us consumers we have to change our ways. The matter was dropped, and you decided to resurrect it with comments that even your doctor agrees Maimi Phase is just a look. :shrugs:

 

[jazzgeek]

Rich, Kathy, Carol.....

Bravo! :bowdown:

As you were, everyone.

regards,
jazz

 

[Rich Z]

Just for the record, it was probably 8 or 10 years ago at one of the Orlando Expos (before it moved to Daytona Beach) that someone came to my table and was looking over my display tank with a very nice Miami Phase corn in it. He commented he had been collecting the Miami area for a long time and he hadn't seen any really nice looking ones like that in a number of years. They used to be there, but not any longer. Just hearsay, I know, but that's what he told me. My original stock was obtained in the mid to late '70s. So even "localities" can change. Heck, I once saw a DOR corn snake just about in downtown Miami that looked like a beautiful Okeetee corn.

And on the other hand, one of the best looking "Miami Phase" corns I have ever laid eyes on was a DOR on Pine Island west of Ft. Myers in the Gulf of Mexico.

 

[Serpwidgets]

As far as the question of terminology, Dr. Kenney Krisko said Miami Phase should only be used to refer to the color pattern, and that it is not exclusive to the Miami locale. He also suggested that Okeetee Phase is nothing more than a color phase.

Yes, this is what people were trying to tell you. It doesn't take a degree to know what "phase" means.

Simply calling them Miami Corns or Okeetee Corns might be more appropriate, if trying to suggest locale. For example, there is usually little confusion when someone says Colombia Boa.

"Miami corn" still does not by itself imply locality. Since "Columbia Boa" does not have any other meaning to anyone, there is no confusion. However, "miami" already has its own meaning in the corn world. People say hypo miami and amel miami and miami motley, etc., and none of those ever mean locality. It means a lack of ground color where you might otherwise expect orange to appear.

If you want to identify them as locale corns in a way that people will actually understand that you mean they are locale corns, then it is up to you to figure out a term that will do just that, instead of expecting the entire hobby to change their vocabulary at your whim.

"it warrants further study."

Sounds like a very intelligent person who knows how to give a satisfactory yet completely noncommittal answer that cannot be misinterpreted to be turned against him. :grin01:

He said that even though nothing has been published about Miami (Miami-Dade or whatever) locality Corns possibly representing some sort of locality variation because of differences in size, feeding habits, and possibly number of eggs per clutch...

The same characteristics are noted in bloodred corns. Are you comparing this to the rest of the wild corn population, or is this just "different" in comparison to what we have grown to expect out of captive-bred cornsnakes?

 

[CaptBogart]

And on the other hand, one of the best looking "Miami Phase" corns I have ever laid eyes on was a DOR on Pine Island west of Ft. Myers in the Gulf of Mexico.

That was probably the one my roomate ran over... I screamed, "what are you doing!" and she swears she thought it was a stick... now we call all sticks on the road snakes.... it was a nice one too... total bummer...

 

[Roy Munson]

I've got an interesting experience to tell...

I've always wondered how prevalent this kind of dishonesty is in the locality trade. I suspect that it is fairly common. :awcrap:

 

[Hurley]

What a great endeavor for a scammer, though. How great a setup is that? You buy snakes for little-to-nothing, you sell them to folks that have no way of knowing that you didn't just pick them up along the road and may never be the wiser...even if they were, try to prove it...and you've got a group of people that travel to Texas, may not have found anything, but will pay bucks to not go home empty-handed with their new "277 Grayband" and if it doesn't eat, gets sick, or dies.... welp, you knew you were buying a "wild caught", thems the breaks.

The only thing you're out is your integrity, your dignity, your sense of honesty.

It's sad how many people nowadays aren't bothered by that. Have some pride.

 

[Rich Z]

That was probably the one my roomate ran over... I screamed, "what are you doing!" and she swears she thought it was a stick... now we call all sticks on the road snakes.... it was a nice one too... total bummer...

Hmm, I guess there has to have been more then one there. My experience was a long time ago. Something like 20 years or so ago...... Man I wish I had the time to go back there again for a few days at least. Of course, I may not even recognize the place the way Florida is being developed coast to coast.