Multiple Snakes per enclosure-comment

[starsevol]

Intresting thread with the cannibalism.

but I have to ask the qustion...

How do we KNOW that snakes dont like people and other snakes? how do we KNOW for certain that snakes dont like to be around eachother and are solitary animals?

Have you ever heard of snakes travelling in herds or packs in the wild?

As far as Mr Duell, I have been keeping snakes for 14 years. I currently have over 40 corns, 4 rosy boas and a goini king. The ONLY time I have ever co habbed the female died as a result. Never again....
and even if I were a newb, I think that listening to people the caliber of Rich Z and Kathy would pretty much give me all the expert advice needed on the matter.

 

[Shiari]

How do we KNOW that snakes dont like people and other snakes? how do we KNOW for certain that snakes dont like to be around eachother and are solitary animals?

I know because the one time I cohabbed, with my very first snakes, my snow eventually went on a hunger strike that didn't resolve until after several weeks in his own enclosure.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=970222&postcount=75

And there is photographic proof of the 'stress'. Those two snakes are the SAME age.

I have never had a sick snake...at least not that I know of. The poop and urine have always looked normal.

Snakes don't have urine. They have urates.

 

[quixoft]

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=970222&postcount=75

And there is photographic proof of the 'stress'. Those two snakes are the SAME age.

I'm not disagreeing with you and the cohabbing certainly could have been the issue to cause your snake to stop feeding. But I do not believe you can use size and age as valid comparisons to establish stress level. There are too many other variables involved to single out stress as the reason one snake is smaller than the other at the same age.

For example, I picked up two corns back in June that were hatched the same day from the same clutch. They are in separate enclosures with the exact same setup.

They both eat just fine yet one is now 53 grams and the other is only 18 grams. They were both 8 grams when I got them. My smaller girl eats just fine but she will skip a meal or two every now and again. Usually when she skips a meal she'll take two pinks where if she doesn't skip, she will always refuse the second pink. Personally, I just think she isn't hungry and won't gorge herself like my other guy will.

So why is my one snake so much smaller than the other? Could it be stress? Certainly. But it is not due to cohabbing because I don't do that. Perhaps yours is just like mine and the cohabbing had nothing to do with it.

From the data you provided, you cannot conclusively claim that your snake did not eat and is small now because of stress caused by cohabbing. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you that cohabbing is not a good idea. I think it's a poor idea but that's just my opinion, I don't claim it as fact.

 

[Shiari]

I do not believe you can use size and age as valid comparisons to establish stress level.

Actually, the fact that snake stopped eating for 6 weeks as a hatchling, despite eating very well for a while, went from calm to spastic and nervous (borderline neurotic) and that these issues settled down some once removed from the cohab is pretty good evidence.

Saying that it's not is like trying to say that my female cat does indeed like other cats despite the fact that she hisses, growls, and runs away from every cat she has ever encountered.

Both snakes in *your* example are eating, even if sporadically for the smaller. Despite being willing to be handled before, after the cohab incident if Feren was touched at all, he'd hunger strike again for a week or two.

Some corns just grow slower. Once Feren decided to begin eating regularly and not stress so much, he's been growing at a normal pace. He's actually close to 170 grams now. And he's gained most of those 70 grams in the last 6 months. He was not a slow grower, he was a neurotic mess and was not before cohabbing.

 

[Tinkerbeller87]

Intresting thread with the cannibalism.

but I have to ask the qustion...

How do we KNOW that snakes dont like people and other snakes? how do we KNOW for certain that snakes dont like to be around eachother and are solitary animals?

I think the true answer to this is no. They cannot talk to us and say "don't put me with this other snake, I will eat it or I hate it!" But behavior can tell us I believe. Which some have already posted here so I will not repeat.

My true feelings through all of this and reasons I don't cohab is putting my beloved animal's life in danger. As an owner of any type of animal my job is to do my best to protect my animal and give the best quality of life possible, regardless of what species and whether it is inhumane to keep it in a cage or not. (If someone wants to keep a siberian tiger as a pet then that is their choice and as long as they give it the best quality of life possible then so be it. Proper diet, surroundings, ect...)

So only in my honest opinion, I do not speak for anyone else nor am I bashing anyone else for their opinion or choices, it is dangerous and poor quality of life for snakes to cohab. As my choice to own snakes I will not put my beloved pet snakes life in danger of being eaten, by ANYTHING! I will try to give my animal the closest to best quality of life possible by knowing if it gets sick so I can make it better, feeding it the proper nutritious diet (yes I feed f/t, again not putting it in danger by getting bitten by it's food), giving it the best viv (multiple places to hide, stuff to climb on, and the proper temperatures to thermo regulate) that I possibly can. As a pet owner I think that this is my responsibility.

 

[WingedSweetheart]

On all of these posts no one ever says what the benefits of co-habbing is. Not even the people who do it. All there is are the cons. Come on all you co-habbing supporters! Where is your side of the story. Why don't you list the benefits for your animal. Now I don't mean the benefits to you but only for the animal.

This lack of benefits leads me to believe that there are none.

 

[Tinkerbeller87]

On all of these posts no one ever says what the benefits of co-habbing is. Not even the people who do it. All there is are the cons. Come on all you co-habbing supporters! Where is your side of the story. Why don't you list the benefits for your animal. Now I don't mean the benefits to you but only for the animal.

This lack of benefits leads me to believe that there are none.

You know, I didn't notice this. Kinda scary actually...

 

[Shiari]

The one "pro".... fewer tanks in the house. That's.... about it.

 

[WingedSweetheart]

Yeah but that's a benefit to the owner not the animal.

 

[Kali]

I wouldn't call myself a cohab supporter, but as I do occasionally (see my post on page one) I'll give you my answer here.

No, I don't think there are benefits for the snake. The bigger viv comes to mind, but as they are sharing it, you can't count it as a pro.
So yes, the benefits are for the owner. And as long as I am convinced that in the correct circumstances, with the correct snakes and in the correct time, it is not bad for my snakes, then I can do it with no other reason then benefits for myself.

I underlined that there are conditions for me (like I said in that same post on page one), so note that I am not saying that cohabbing in general is a good thing.

No doubt at all people will disagree. I understand completely. But honestly in my personal situation (the only one I can know completely), I see no downside. The problem stories are sad, but imo they are problems because they were not seperated fast enough.
I do have seperate vivs for everyone. So at the first hint of something being not right, back they go. Haven't had to do that but once until now, and I didn't have to deal with refusal to eat or bad shedding or whatever, because I seperated him before it could become a problem.

 

[Chip]

So yes, the benefits are for the owner.

Agreed. I'd never recommend it, though. Or do it, aside from breeding. Many years ago, I put three young adult corns in one bin to clean. In 10-15 minutes, I opened the tub to see half of one snake down another one's throat. I got it out, but too late. Just a few months ago, I placed all the tesseras in one tub to photograph and saw one start eating its sibling, no constriction, just started working it's mouth over the others head... I got the snake out okay that time, but in a matter of seconds it would have suffocated. I seriously doubt Betsy and I are the only people here who have lost prized cornsnakes from putting them together. When it happens to you, you have a very different perspective. Please understand why some of us get annoyed when people try to make cases for cohabiting. We don't ever want it to happen to others.

 

[dek593]

Well..I think rasing a snake in limited space always makes it build up stress. However, we like to raise it in limited space for only our hobby. LOL~

 

[Shelliebear]

As I said in an earlier post, I don't cohab my snakes. But I also don't necessarily think it couldn't or shouldn't be done, depending on the individuals.

I never said I discourage discussion. In the OP's first post he said something like, "Please don't freak out, I know you're all against it," etc.
Why post that, then, if he wants a discussion? Why are people allowed to voice their pro co-habbing opinion, but he doesn't want the other side? That's what I was addressing.
I didn't say don't have a civil discussion.
Also, as to your other statement, I didn't call him selfish. That has nothing to do with my post, and I fail to see how it is relevant. He put that quote I was referring to in his first post. I was simply saying if you're going to talk about housing animals your way, then when someone disagrees, it is hypocritical to pull out the "it's wrong to house them in cages in the first place" argument.
...I think you may have misunderstood most of my post. :/

 

[Shelliebear]

Seems to me that if n00bies like me follow the lead of Kathy Love & Rich Z we are following in good paths. Kathy doesn't recommend cohabbing. I think she would know.

I totally agree.

 

[bsmith359]

You guys are right in the fact that it benefits the owner much more than the snake. That I can agree with. I only used that argument for on how even a comfortable prision....is still a prision, because i wanted to point out that it does not matter what kind of animal you have in a cage...that cage is still a prision, which means ANY animal in ANY SIZE cage is gong to be stressed no matter what. I was just pointing out the fact that someone could argue that it is inhumane to keep an animal in activity in the first place.

I like reading what others have to say on both sides of the co-habing.

To be honest, im 21 years old as of last week. a year ago my parents dident want me to get a snake in the first place. But I wanted more because I fell in love with them! I kinda snuck the first snake in the house...they were pissed. but they decided to live with it...then it occured to me, if I got a bigger cage, i could get more snakes. So i decided to get a bigger cage, and decorate it the crazyness out of it that way the snakes are usualy always hideing and not in the open. that way I could get away with haveing more than 1 snake in the cage..my family probably wouldnt know the difference between the 3 snakes unless if they saw more then one next to eachother. to them they all look the same. So i figured if they see any of them at one time, to them it will look like i have one snake, but in reality i would have 3. I like haveing my cage decorated as much as i do, i think it looks cool...but if my parents would of been okay with me haveing more snakes, yes hoenstly, i would rather have some of these "snake racks" that most you people have. I would love to have a whole wall in my house of difffernt snakes. my parents would flip if I had a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th, or a 5th cage. on to of that, i have a 150 gallon saltwater reef tank..

So yes, it does benefit me more than the snakes in haveing them in the same habitat. however...though there ARE more benefits for the owner, I still cant say that I disagree with keeping more then one per cage. I honestly, sincearly, would not of put more then 1 snake per cage, if i sincearly, thought it would be too risky. and no one on here is saying that it has not been done sucsessfuly before. It can be done and has been proven.

The reptile specialty store I go to said that it would be okay to house them together, and they do it all the time. ANNNND they did say " If i was just out there to try to make money off of you and rip you off, i would tell you that you cant have more then 1 cornsnake in a cage together" The store I go to is not there to take your money, they sell reptiles because they enjoy it and want others to enjoy it as well. yes, they make a profit off you, like any other buisnes, but there an honest buisness. this is where I go...

http://www.stingersexotics.com/

 

[Kali]

In 10-15 minutes, I opened the tub to see half of one snake down another one's throat.

You say young adult corns, can I ask how old they were? Cannibalism among hatchlings is well-known, but in older snakes hardly ever heard of. (except maybe when not seperated for feeding and when two snakes start at different ends of one prey-item).
Or if it does happen, people maybe don't tell?
It might be good to have a first hand account of adult corn cannibalism if that was the case.

 

[runninghorsespirit]

well i do have 3 adults living together in a 75 gallon tank and they are all doing fine and I do have my hatchlings together and i have yet have a signal problem. I can understand why you shouldn't but its up to the person and to watch the snakes for stress. I usually get my snakes out for handling so they can have their time. I have yet to have a problem. Before breeding season I will have to separate my males from females to prevent breeding.

 

[Chip]

ANNNND they did say " If i was just out there to try to make money off of you and rip you off, i would tell you that you cant have more then 1 cornsnake in a cage together" The store I go to is not there to take your money, they sell reptiles because they enjoy it and want others to enjoy it as well. ..

I own a pet shop specializing in reptiles as well. I never give the advice to cohab because it is dangerous. Worst case scenario has happened to me! Am I trying to "sell more enclosures?" Nope, I don't even carry them, outside of Critter Cages. I give people Reptilebasics, boamaster, etc. websites, and Clay Davenports' rack build page. My own profit has nothing to do with the advice I give.

You say young adult corns, can I ask how old they were? Cannibalism among hatchlings is well-known, but in older snakes hardly ever heard of. (except maybe when not separated for feeding and when two snakes start at different ends of one prey-item).
Or if it does happen, people maybe don't tell?
It might be good to have a first hand account of adult corn cannibalism if that was the case.

I don't recall if they were yearlings or two year olds, but if memory serves, they were in the 24"-30" range. Way bigger than I would have expected such a thing. After that, I'm paranoid to even brumate snakes together.

 

[bsmith359]

How big are your snakes runninghorsespirit? are they bigger than mine? what kinds do you have? can you take pics?

 

[dwyn127]

I housed about 3-4 adults in each tub for brumation. It was always proven males together and proven females together, all of the same size range per tub.

Yup, I pack them 2 per tub for brumation. That's the only time they live together...unless Barry White is playing in the background.