Nine teens charged with bullying in teen's suicide

[tyflier]

You really need to read what is actually written before you give yourself a heart attacki...

It is true we will never know exactly what there kids did to her, but here is some of the things they did

Since last fall

Prince suffered months of nearly constant stalking and harassment, the Associated Press reports.

The boston globe reports that
"They followed Phoebe around, calling her a slut. When they wanted to be more specific, they called her an Irish slut. The name-calling, the stalking, the intimidation was relentless."

" Phoebe was walking home from school when one of the Mean Girls drove by in a car. An insult and an energy drink can came flying out the car window in Phoebe’s direction."

"Instead, they went on Facebook and mocked her in death."

"From information known to investigators thus far, it appears that Phoebe's death on January 14th followed a tortuous day for her, in which she was subjected to verbal harassment and threatened physical abuse,'' Scheibel said.


Fox news
"The investigation revealed relentless activities directed toward Phoebe to make it impossible for her to stay at school. The bullying for her was intolerable," Scheibel said. (scheibel is the district attorney)

OK...99% of that is nothing to be arrested for. It should be dealt with in disciplinary terms within the school. Driving around town and harrassing her...she(or her parental figures) should have called the police THEN...not after her death.

If you don't think they were harassing her then I guess that is your call to make, but I think that is harassment and harassment is criminal. No assault has to take place in order for a crime to have taken place. I agree it would have been GREAT is last fall when this started the school had stepped in and the parents had stepped in and they had together put a stop to this before it became a crime, but they didn't, and things escalated and these kids did harass her and that is against the law.

Inever said they didn't harrass. In fact, what I said was we do not know the specifics, and if these kids DID cross a criminal line than by all means they deserve criminal charges. See...that's where reading what is written may have helped a little...

Bullying is Abuse and abuse and harassment are crimes. Just because you said it isn't a crime that doesn't make it so. I have already provided supporting evidence that says bullying is abuse. I say the sky is purple but that does not make it so.

Again...arguing the semantics without clearly defining anyting. What constitutes bullying to make it a crime? Is it of a repetitive nature that makes it criminal? Is it the intensity? Is it the person doing the bullying?

As I said many, many times...there are varying degrees of bullying. Certainly some of them cross the line and become criminal. But this is not always the case.

Really screaming for their blood? Just because I do think that people who behave in a criminal manner should face criminal charges? It is up to a jury to decide if they are guilty or not and I am totally aware of innocent until proven guilty. I am not claiming they are guilty. But it is not outrageous for me to say that if they did break the law like they are charged with doing, then they do deserve to have criminal charges brought against them. That is not screaming for their blood.

I agree with you...if they DID do what the charges IMPLY they did, the DESERVE criminal charges. However, this is still based on assumption.

If the charges are dropped and the kids go free because they are found innocent of wrongdoing...what will you say then? I have already acknowledged that if they did the crime, they deserve the time. You and others refuse to admit that there is a possibility that these charges are not justified. What happens if they are cleared? What then? Does your whole theory go to crap or just this thread?

Better yet...will you apologize? No? I didn;t think so. Because it's alright to assume they are guilty as charged, but not alright to assume that they are not. I see...

You may be arguing semantics, but I am not. I said bullying was abuse and I provided a source, you said it is not and you backed that statement up with nothing. I have read the definition of bullying and the American Psychological associations writing about it and the Wikipedia page on it, and I have gone through a lot of bullying related training in my teaching classes, I have a clear understanding of the difference between a one time insult and a persistent targeted attack on another person. You are welcome to try to find someone to argue semantics with you but I decline to do so.

Again...reading would help.

I didn't say bullying weas "not abuse" I said bullying is not ALWAYS abuse and it is not ALWAYS criminal. Very big difference between what I ACTUALLY said, and what you seem to think I said. There's that reading thing again...

I did not say you were harassing me, in fact to quote you "If you had read what I wrote..." you would see that what I said was "Questioning a persons ability to read, because you are in a debate with them is mean and it is a insulting,. No I do not think that makes you a criminal, while I did bring it to your attention because I do think it is wrong, I have never asked you to stop it and in terms of how you treat me this is a very isolated occurrence. Now if you were to continue to harass me and insult me day in and day out, then that might be a different story" - SO unless you plan to insult me every day I imagine you are in the clear. SO to be clear I did not say you were harassing me, I said you were rude.

Pardon me, but using the phrase "If you continue to harrass me and insult me..." would imply that I was harrassing you. So yes, you DID say I was harrassing you.

very interesting how I am the one supposedly making stuff up in this topic, is it not?

As for me being sensitive, you are way wrong if you think being sensitive means that people have to walk on eggshells around me, you are way wrong if you think it means I wear my heart on my sleeve and am easily offended. You are also completely wrong if you think being sensitive is a choice. Being sensitive has NEVER caused me heartache. I do not expect people to accommodate me and walk on eggshells as to not offend me. But I do expect people to behave politely not because I am sensitive but becasue all people deserve to be treated with respect. And good manners and politeness should be important to everyone even people who are not sensitive!

Than you shouldn't be so darn offended by anything I've said. I didn;'t start this topic as an assault on you. I didn;t call you out specificaly. I didn;t even mention you, or wade, or anyone else. I merely stated my objective opinion that perhaps there is more to the story than what we have in the articles.

It wasn't until you, and wade, and others tried to twist my words to say I was defending and justifying criminal activity that I started directly addressing people.

I live in the same real world that you do. I have bills to pay and places to go and things to do, all of that. The difference is not that I am somehow sheltered or that somehow my life is easier or less difficult, the reason that my "world" is lovely is because part of the way I live my life is to always be on the look out for the loveliness and to not dwell on the less lovely. Another reason that my life is always so rosy is because I work REAL hard to make sure it is. You reap what you sow, and I work hard to make sure I sow positive energy, polite behavior, and kindness. And in return that is how people treat me. Sure a man could walk in my wide open front door right now and hurt me but that doesn't mean that life is not lovely just because there is some danger in the world or just because bad things happen sometimes (well actually my family is armed so only if he was lucky could he make it over the threshold of my door, but that is a different story). In my lifetime I have been abused, I have an alcoholic father, and mentally unwell mother, I have been robbed and beaten by a stranger (now I carry pepper spray and once I finish my class I will be a proud new CC permit holder) and I have lost two homes due to natural disasters. This in addition to all the normal life stuff like how last year my husband lost his job. So don't you dare tell me that I don't what it's like to live in the real world. I think that having gone through these things still being able to feel like life is lovely is not a sign of weakness on my part but a sign of strength.

What are you talking about?? Just because you go out of your way to be nice, and as such are treated nicely in return, doesn;t change the fact that biological forces, natural forces, and yes, people, are mean to each other. I'm generally a nice guy, and I get treated generally nicely in the real world. That doesn;t mean all of the sudden that the world is not a cruel place. It is. No matter what my little corner of the world might look like(or yours), in general...life is tough.

Mean - hateful: characterized by malice; "a hateful thing to do"; "in a mean mood"

Bullying - Deliberate action or behaviour directed towards another person which may take many forms and can often occur over a long period of time. Bullying is the use of any action that has the intent of causing pain and distress to the victim and can be either emotional, physical, racist, sexual, homophobic or verbal.

Abuse - mistreat: treat badly or maltreatment: cruel or inhumane treatment
harassment - the act of tormenting by continued persistent attacks and criticism
All the above definitions are taken from google

Yea...and? You still haven't shown me evidence where these kids deserve criminal punishment for their activities. I know what they are accused of. I will wait for the courts to decide if they are actually guilty.

All of the definitions in the world won't change that...

http://www.apa.org/about/gr/issues/cyf/bullying-briefing.aspx

Well since you apparently know more than the American Psychological Association maybe you can share with us where you got your information that in "normal" kids bullying doesn't cause suicide ever?

See...reading...again...

I NEVER said bullying doesn't cause suicide ever. You're making that up. What I said was that bullying is not generally the root cause of suicide in an otherwise happy, healthy, well-adjusted teens.

It's no wonder you people get so offended by me. None of you even read what I actually type out. You read one or two words, fill in the rest with whatever garbage you feel like pretending I said, and have a field day.

And while we are at it what exactly is a 'Normal" kid? I have meet a lot of kids in my life and not a single one has ever been "normal"

This is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

What's "normal"? Well, let's start with kids that don't kill themselves. How's that? A "normal" kid has issues, but learns how to deal with them. A "normal" kid has friends and enemies, and they learn how to interact within a polite society without resorting to hurting themselves or someone else. A normal kid has a bad day, goes home, beats on a punching bag, or shoots some targets, or plays some video games, or...whatever...but they wake up the next day and try again.

I've been around this planet for almost 4 decades. In the last 3 of those decades, I have watched many adults struggle with the concept of young people taking their own lives.

In the 1980's, they blamed Judas Priest, heavy metal, and "sublimnal messaging". They even went so far as to take Judas Priest to trial, and accuse a rock band of being "in league with Satan" because those backwards subliminal messages were put there by the Dark Lord himself.

In the 1990's, it was video games. Kids were killing themselves because the violence in the video games was glorified, and made death seem romantic to these kids, so they took their own lives.

Today it's bullies. These damned bullies are so viscious and mean and hurtful and evil that they drove that poor girl to take her own life.

I think it's just one more scapegoat so that parents and administrators don't have to acknowledge their own failings and shortcomings. Instead of actually trying to remedy the situations that make these poor children so incredibly depressed and without hope, they blame the most visible problem. Music, video games, bullies...whatever it is.

But that doesn't really solve anything, now does it? If the school isn't held responsible this time...will they be next time? Without repercussions for the only people in a position to protect this child while she was still alive...do you really think there will be any changes in the way these situations are dealt with in the future?

But go ahead...blame the 9 teens. Let things continue on the way they have been. It hasn;t caused any harm...except for a few hundred innocent teenage lives...

I know...I'm such a cruel and heartless individual...

 

[wade]

You can call me a "real jerk" as much as you want, wade, but at least I can read and comprehend English and don'tneed to resort to lying and twisting other people's words around to make a valid point like you do...regularly(except maybe the lying part...only caught you in the act of that one time...)

Chris I have not called you any names. You asked how you had twisted words and I gave you several examples. You have no problem with insulting unfounded statements that you can't seem to verify or document.

Oh really, and when was that?

You flat out call me a liar but when asked for an example or verification of that remark you just ignore it.

You have left the realm of having a discussion here Chris. This has become mud slinging, insulting, name calling, play ground behavior. I won't play that game with you Chris. I'm sure you can keep this "debate" alive all by yourself for weeks on end. Go for it Chris. I won't participate, leave me out of it.

 

[tyflier]

Oh really, and when was that?

Think about, buddy, you'll remember. Mr. "I never use different words in different situations"...

You do remember your incredibly racist joke that you told on this forum, right? The one that proved you were full of crap when you made the statement in quotes above?

Of course, once that was shown, you quickly fled the scene. I don't blame you for blocking it out...

 

[tyflier]

Chris I have not called you any names. You asked how you had twisted words and I gave you several examples. You have no problem with insulting unfounded statement that you can't seem to verify or document.

perhaps not in this topic, but the words "you're a real jerk" are precisely and exactly what you said to me. "Chris, you're a real jerk" is the exact quote, as I recall.

You flat out call me a liar but when asked for an example or verification of that remark you just ignore it.

You have left the realm of having a discussion here Chris. This has become mud slinging, insulting, name calling, play ground behavior. I won't play that game with you Chris. I'm sure you can keep this "debate" alive all by yourself for weeks on end. Go for it Chris. I won't participate, leave me out of it.

Won't play that game. You STARTED that game. Look above...you'll remember when I called you out for making ridiculously false statements and arrogantly and vehemently defending them as accurate...until they were proven false, and then you disappeared from the topic...

 

[wade]

No Chris, that was just another of your fantasies. I said I don't use different language in different situations (referring to profanity) and I don't. You decided it was a lie. Your opinion does not make it so. Weather you believe it or not does not change the truth of the statement.

I know you would love to belittle me in some way Chris. You have been calling me a racist for some time now. You have been making reference to an incredibly racist joke for sometime now. Although you have never shown anyone where that incredibly racist joke is. I'll give you a hand so you don't have to research it. We had a thread about making an all black corn snake. Now I am paraphrasing and I'm sure that will upset you. I made the comment that it would require some rap music and watermelon. Is that the one? Incredible? Oh my you awful man.

Once again, your opinion does not make it so. You see, I am not a racist. I have several black friends, in fact I shared that comment with them and none of them found offence in the remark. My best friend all through High School was Japanese. You are going to have to work real hard to make me a racist. In fact I am probably one of the most open minded people you will ever have the good fortune to meet.

I am not going to spend the rest of my evening responding to your lies and accusations. As I said in the previous post, this has left the realm of a discussion.

I'm done with this Chris, let it go.

 

[Michael823]

I never understand why threads like these always become some sort of debate. I don't mean that to insult anyone, but sometimes there's just a time to debate, and a time to just focus on what the issue really is. All of us are probably the type of people who would defend even a perfect stranger from the type of torment that this poor girl went through, so although we may have slightly different views on what/who/how these bullies are charged, we should all just simmer down and find a little power in our common ground, and in the fact that we would do everything in our power to make sure this doesn't happen to our loved ones.

I sure know that there is no one here that condones what these kids did, and I'm sure that we can all agree that, whatever happens to these kids (the abusers), they deserve it. If this was my family member, I'm really not sure what I would do. I don't think that I could just stand by and watch these kids go un-punished. It's easy to excuse this as "typical" bullying, but that's from an outside perspective. No one knows exactly how this girl felt, or to what extent she was abused. She very well may have been a strong willed person that became worn down over the constant abuse. I know that I can only take so much before I reach my limit, and I'd like to consider myself a fairly level headed and strong minded person. Some may choose suicide, others may retaliate, and both are extremes that I believe can be brought upon anyone given the right circumstance. This girl obviously reached her limit, and for whatever reason chose suicide. Now the world can never hear her side of the story, and can understand what it was exactly that she went through. She also isn't able to speak out against this type of offense, or able to stand up and fight against it. It's obviously a large problem, and there's people in every school that go through similar abuse on a daily basis. There are plenty of girls and boys just like this child that can still be spared of this treatment, and it's sad, because tomorrow will come and they will yet again be abused and mistreated at school, at home, and even on the web.

I'm just really feeling badly thinking about this right now. Sorry for the long rant, but I really hope that we can see the bigger picture here.

 

[tyflier]

No Chris, that was just another of your fantasies. I said I don't use different language in different situations (referring to profanity) and I don't. You decided it was a lie. Your opinion does not make it so. Weather you believe it or not does not change the truth of the statement.

Not a fantasy. I even posted not only the joke as a quote, but a direct link to the thread wherein it could be found.

You said that you do not alter your language to suit the social situation. You said anyone that did was insincere and "phony", I believe is the word you used.

I then proceeded to find a racist joke about "black cornsnakes" that you told. I also pointed out that if you would not tell that joke in every conceivable social situation you might find yourself in, you were lying. If you WOULD tell that joke in every conceivable social situation, it would make an incredibly rude, arrogant, beliferant and offensive hypocrite.

You never got back to me on which it turned out to be. But since you insist you weren't lying...

I know you would love to belittle me in some way Chris. You have been calling me a racist for some time now. You have been making reference to an incredibly racist joke for sometime now. Although you have never shown anyone where that incredibly racist joke is. I'll give you a hand so you don't have to research it. We had a thread about making an all black corn snake. Now I am paraphrasing and I'm sure that will upset you. I made the comment that it would require some rap music and watermelon. Is that the one? Incredible? Oh my you awful man.

I DID show not only the joke, but the thread. And it was racist. And I dare you to tell it in a nightclub on 125th St. in Harlem, and defend it as "not racist"...

Once again, your opinion does not make it so. You see, I am not a racist. I have several black friends, in fact I shared that comment with them and none of them found offence in the remark. My best friend all through High School was Japanese. You are going to have to work real hard to make me a racist. In fact I am probably one of the most open minded people you will ever have the good fortune to meet.

I don't need to make you a racist. The very fact that you can count how many "friends" you have of different races, and wear it as a badge of your "non-racism" is questionable, at best.

I wonder how much it will help when you tell that friendly, pleasant and non-racist joke in Harlem?

I am not going to spend the rest of my evening responding to your lies and accusations. As I said in the previous post, this has left the realm of a discussion.

I'm done with this Chris, let it go.

You should have never started it up, wade. Your very first reply to me in this topic was arrogant, accusatory, condescending and based on the words you twisted around to fit your needs.

I made a very simple statement of observation, and you just had to prove how much smarter and superior you are to me. And you do nthis regularly. You see my name, and automatically assume that I am out to attack someone, so rather than read and comprehend what I wrote in it's entirety, you jump in both barrels to put me and my respones down as nothing more than the blatherings of an uneducated sociopath.

When I avoid "controversial" topics, you come into my photo threads, and make snide, off-hand remarks that are just barely veiled insults, followed by "Nice photo", and than you saunter off, to save another damsel in distress.

Only trouble is...in order to do it, you have to twist my words again and again. And it results in this.

I know...I'm the bad guy. That's cool. I'm used to it...

 

[wade]

Thanks Chris. Now go back and reread what you just wrote and see if it makes sense to you.

 

[tyflier]

Oh, and I just wanted to address your backpedaling here, for a moment...

...I said I don't use different language in different situations (referring to profanity) and I don't....

If you were referring to profanity in that topic, you should have been more clear. Considering that the topic wasn't even remotely related to profanity or cursing, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that those are the particular words you were referring to.

In fact, I seem to even recall mentioning having conversations in their entirety with one group of friends that you would not have with comlpete strangers, and you stated that you simply don't do those things.

Now...were you lying? Or do I get the pleasure of reading about the white boy that walked into a nightclub in Harlem and made the biggest mistake of his quickly-shortened life?

 

[tyflier]

Thanks Chris. Now go back and reread what you just wrote and see if it makes sense to you.

Uhh...yea. It makes total sense. Perhaps you need to update the language profiles in your web browser? :shrugs:

 

[Emanon]

basically, we need to arrest Al Gore because as the inventor of the internet, his responsible for much of the bullying that takes place today.

 

[Dinah]

You really need to read what is actually written before you give yourself a heart attacki...



OK...99% of that is nothing to be arrested for. It should be dealt with in disciplinary terms within the school.



Inever said they didn't harrass. In fact, what I said was we do not know the specifics, and if these kids DID cross a criminal line than by all means they deserve criminal charges. See...that's where reading what is written may have helped a little...





Again...arguing the semantics without clearly defining anyting. What constitutes bullying to make it a crime? Is it of a repetitive nature that makes it criminal? Is it the intensity? Is it the person doing the bullying?
As I said many, many times...there are varying degrees of bullying. Certainly some of them cross the line and become criminal. But this is not always the case.
I agree with you...if they DID do what the charges IMPLY they did, the DESERVE criminal charges. However, this is still based on assumption.



If the charges are dropped and the kids go free because they are found innocent of wrongdoing...what will you say then? I have already acknowledged that if they did the crime, they deserve the time. You and others refuse to admit that there is a possibility that these charges are not justified. What happens if they are cleared? What then? Does your whole theory go to crap or just this thread?
Better yet...will you apologize? No? I didn;t think so. Because it's alright to assume they are guilty as charged, but not alright to assume that they are not. I see...



Again...reading would help.

I didn't say bullying weas "not abuse" I said bullying is not ALWAYS abuse and it is not ALWAYS criminal. Very big difference between what I ACTUALLY said, and what you seem to think I said. There's that reading thing again...



Pardon me, but using the phrase "If you continue to harrass me and insult me..." would imply that I was harrassing you. So yes, you DID say I was harrassing you.
very interesting how I am the one supposedly making stuff up in this topic, is it not?



Than you shouldn't be so darn offended by anything I've said. I didn;'t start this topic as an assault on you. I didn;t call you out specificaly. I didn;t even mention you, or wade, or anyone else. I merely stated my objective opinion that perhaps there is more to the story than what we have in the articles.



What are you talking about?? Just because you go out of your way to be nice, and as such are treated nicely in return, doesn;t change the fact that biological forces, natural forces, and yes, people, are mean to each other. I'm generally a nice guy, and I get treated generally nicely in the real world. That doesn;t mean all of the sudden that the world is not a cruel place. It is. No matter what my little corner of the world might look like(or yours), in general...life is tough.


Yea...and? You still haven't shown me evidence where these kids deserve criminal punishment for their activities. I know what they are accused of. I will wait for the courts to decide if they are actually guilty.

All of the definitions in the world won't change that...




See...reading...again...

I NEVER said bullying doesn't cause suicide ever. You're making that up. What I said was that bullying is not generally the root cause of suicide in an otherwise happy, healthy, well-adjusted teens.

It's no wonder you people get so offended by me. None of you even read what I actually type out. You read one or two words, fill in the rest with whatever garbage you feel like pretending I said, and have a field day.


This is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

What's "normal"? Well, let's start with kids that don't kill themselves. How's that? A "normal" kid has issues, but learns how to deal with them. A "normal" kid has friends and enemies, and they learn how to interact within a polite society without resorting to hurting themselves or someone else. A normal kid has a bad day, goes home, beats on a punching bag, or shoots some targets, or plays some video games, or...whatever...but they wake up the next day and try again.

I've been around this planet for almost 4 decades. In the last 3 of those decades, I have watched many adults struggle with the concept of young people taking their own lives.

In the 1980's, they blamed Judas Priest, heavy metal, and "sublimnal messaging". They even went so far as to take Judas Priest to trial, and accuse a rock band of being "in league with Satan" because those backwards subliminal messages were put there by the Dark Lord himself.

In the 1990's, it was video games. Kids were killing themselves because the violence in the video games was glorified, and made death seem romantic to these kids, so they took their own lives.

Today it's bullies. These damned bullies are so viscious and mean and hurtful and evil that they drove that poor girl to take her own life.

I think it's just one more scapegoat so that parents and administrators don't have to acknowledge their own failings and shortcomings. Instead of actually trying to remedy the situations that make these poor children so incredibly depressed and without hope, they blame the most visible problem. Music, video games, bullies...whatever it is.

But that doesn't really solve anything, now does it? If the school isn't held responsible this time...will they be next time? Without repercussions for the only people in a position to protect this child while she was still alive...do you really think there will be any changes in the way these situations are dealt with in the future?

But go ahead...blame the 9 teens. Let things continue on the way they have been. It hasn;t caused any harm...except for a few hundred innocent teenage lives...

I know...I'm such a cruel and heartless individual...

First of all I am asking you nicely to stop trying to make this seem as though I am upset or about to have a heart attack because that is just not the case. I have only actually been upset once in this entire thread, and I waited until the next day when I was calm to address the issue that bothered me. I was am still am offended that somehow you think you are in a position to decide a persons reading ability, but I was not upset. I just believe in calling a spade a spade, so when you were rude to me, I called you rude. Making it out like I am some emotional wacko about to burst is twisting the facts to say the least. So I will worry about my own circulatory health thank you very much and I will ask you nicely to please refrain from commenting on my mental state because being all the way on the other side of country and not knowing me, I cannot really see how you are qualified to determine it. Since you are not qualified to evaluate my emotional health, my mental health, or my circulatory health, I must assume you are just being derogatory to me. And I am asking you nicely this time to stop it.

Individually calling someone a name or such is not something to be arrested for true, but on going targeted harassment is something to be arrested for. It is called criminal harassment and it just happens to be one of the charges these kids are facing. In terms of dealing with is at school sure nipping the problem in the bud right away before anything escalates is ideal, but the school didn't deal with it, they allowed it progress and continue and escelate for months and months. Like I have said all along if the school and parents had put a stop to this to begin with then it would have never progressed into anything criminal, but nobody did anything and it progressed and progressed and continued and continued until it did become a criminal issue. If the parents cannot handle it, and if the schools cannot handle it then unfortunately law enforcement has to handle it. Besides You said you feel the only way for them to cross the criminal line is by being physical which is just not the case. There are TONS of ways to be a criminal in this country without ever touching anyone. Harassment is just one of those ways.

So what exactly is your point, that when police and the district attorney do an investigation and find that there is evidence for charges, they should not bring them unless you ok it first? Because I have a feeling they have some experience with their jobs, and are able to determine which cases to bring without your help. Additionally having charges filed against you does not mean you are guilty. It means the DA determined there was enough evidence to bring you to trial. So what is the problem with charging them with harassing her? Nobody here said just toss em in jail without a trial.

Since you wanted semantics so desperatly and since you seem to think that my grasp of the English language is so lacking I provided you with the definition of bullying, harassing, and abuse in my last post. If you need additional information you are welcome to google for yourself. I am not your secretary if you do not know what words means you will need to look them up yourself.


You can say that bullying is not always abuse if you wish, but this is just a circle argument, where I say it is and you say it isn't. The only difference is I provided a link to show it as abuse and you provided nothing except your say so. It seems like the ball is in your court.


I have never said that I know for sure these kids are guilty of what they are being charged with, what I am saying is that if they did harass her, then they do deserve to be charged even if it was not physical.

What do you mean I refuse to admit there is a possibility that these kids did not harass her? When did I ever say guilty, or guilty until proven innocent or anything else like that? Oh yeah I didn't. If it turns out that the papers and the DA and the administration and the student witnesses and this girls parents have all just made it up and the kids being accused really did not harass her then I will be glad that they had an opportunity to have a fair trial and I will be glad that the prosecution did not have the evidence to make the case. If they are not proven to be guilty that does not change the fact the harassment is a crime and that people (kids included) who participate in harassing people, and who do not stop before things escalate are in fact breaking the law. All that them being found innocent will mean is that they did not do the things they were charged with. What would you have me apologize for? I do not assume they are guilty. I assume that if they are charged then there is some evidence and if there is some evidence then the best place to sort the facts out are in court. I assume that the DA is competent and would not bring a case if there wasn't one. Do you want me to apologize because I think harassment (without physical contact) is a crime that if committed should in fact be punished? Or because I believe the DA is competent enough to decide when charges are warranted? Because that is all I am guilty of here and for that I will not apologize.


If you are going to use a quote of mine to imply that I was threatening you and saying you were harassing me, then be man enough to use the whole quote. Do not just snip it to make it seem like I was being all cryptic and accusing you of harassment. I said

"Questioning a persons ability to read, because you are in a debate with them is mean and it is a insulting,. No I do not think that makes you a criminal, while I did bring it to your attention because I do think it is wrong, I have never asked you to stop it and in terms of how you treat me this is a very isolated occurrence. Now if you were to continue to harass me and insult me day in and day out, then that might be a different story" in post 128.

I did not just say ""If you continue to harrass me and insult me..." I clearly state that you did insult me once, but that it take more than that, like on going insults day in and day out to change it from an insult to harassment.


I have every right to be offended when someone insults me. That has nothing to do with being sensitive. You implied that I was not competent enough to read or understand your posts and that is an insult. That doesn't mean I am too sensitive. It means I am not willing to take crap from people

Additionally you are going to be hard pressed to find any abuse survivor (or any one with and shred of understanding about abuse) who is going to feel kosher with you saying (to paraphrase you in post 78) that if the abuse isn't physical and it is only tormenting so they do not deserve charges. That is defending criminal behavior because non physical harassment is still a crime. Abuse comes in A LOT of different forms and none of them should be taken lightly and all abuse no matter its form is criminal.

What do you mean what do I mean? You said the world was a harsh terrible and dangerous place, and I said it is not. This is a circle argument that nobody can win and I even said that what kind of place this world is has a lot to do with outlook. You are welcome to say the world is a harsh place but that doesn't make it so anymore than when I say it is a lovely place. Just because there is an occasional mean person or an occasional natural disaster (and I am not diminishing natural disasters I have as I said before lost homes, possessions pictures, everything from them before) that doesn't mean the world is cruel and harsh, it could just as easily mean that sometimes living is an adventure that requires you to hang on tight. Even after Andrew the sun came out the next day.


You asked me to define bullying and harassment and I provided you with those definitions the definitions were never stated as proof that the kids did those things they were provided to you because you wanted to know how I defined them. So no the definitions are not proof, the definitions were provided because YOU ASKED FOR THEM.

You can think my statement is ridiculous if you want but I really have never meet a normal child. Have you? Every child is so different there is no such thing as normal. Every child has things they are exceptional at and every child has things they struggle with. There is no set standard for normal. I have only every meet unique children, but never a normal one.


You did say that bullying does not cause normal kids to commit suicide. You said

Quite simple really...people that have a strong self-esteem, strong self-confidence, and the mental capacity to face the daily struggles of a hard life don't kill themselves, for any reason. No matter how painful it might be, they wake up every morning and face a new day.

And yet the American Psychological Association seems to think that suicidal thoughts are a side effect of bullying. Certainly there are other reasons a person might have suicidal thoughts. But suicidal thoughts are a common reaction to people who are bullied and plenty of people who are bullied are "normal" and do not have some hidden issue, they are just overwhelmed by the severity of their situation and they feel trapped and hopeless because of that.


"Normal" kids can be driven to desperate and abnormal things when they are being bullied. It is harsh to say all those kids who consider or actually do kill themselves where somehow abnormal. Perfectly "normal' people can have problems and difficulties, and perfectly normal people can be driven to extremes if they are sufficiently tormented. This is going to be jsut like the bullying is/is not abuse discussion. I posted info to back up what I said, so where is your info to back up what you said?


The difference between those examples is that creating music is legal and doesn't harm others, playing video games also legal also does not harm others, harassing other people not legal and is harmful to others.


As for your last three paragraphs may I direct you to post number 12.

 

[medusacoils]

First of all I am asking.........

"You must spread some reputation around"

Excellent! :cheers:

Wayne

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

I am so, SO SOOOO sorry, and I promise I'll make a serious post on this very serious topic tomorrow, but since Wade's already set precedent with the Onion clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvgap8p0tkM

 

[diamondlil]

How come this girl's suicide has degenerated into an excuse for members to argue and score points? If member 'a' is right and 'b' is wrong, so what? The girl is still dead, her parents are still grieving. She was bullied and her tormentors may face criminal charges which may or may not be upheld. We do not know her level of emotional and psychological maturity and well-being, can only guess why she wasn't able to feel strong enough to carry on with her life, but she was the only person who knew the whole story and takes that with her to her grave.

 

[LBoz]

How come this girl's suicide has degenerated into an excuse for members to argue and score points? If member 'a' is right and 'b' is wrong, so what? The girl is still dead, her parents are still grieving. She was bullied and her tormentors may face criminal charges which may or may not be upheld. We do not know her level of emotional and psychological maturity and well-being, can only guess why she wasn't able to feel strong enough to carry on with her life, but she was the only person who knew the whole story and takes that with her to her grave.

Excellent, J9! I don't know about the rest of you, but I like Wade and I like Chris, and I hold them both in high regard. Unfortunately, they seem to enjoy getting into these scuffles all over the board. I don't enjoy it. It detracts from the point of the OP, unresolved issues from other threads are dumped into a current topic, and it turns ugly every time.

You're both very intelligent men, but your constant battling is disruptive. I have no doubt whatsoever that if you two sat down for a beer summit, you'd end up laughing. Maybe you should go down to Lucille's Tonk and have a few rounds together.

 

[tsst]

Excellent, J9! I don't know about the rest of you, but I like Wade and I like Chris, and I hold them both in high regard. Unfortunately, they seem to enjoy getting into these scuffles all over the board. I don't enjoy it. It detracts from the point of the OP, unresolved issues from other threads are dumped into a current topic, and it turns ugly every time.

You're both very intelligent men, but your constant battling is disruptive. I have no doubt whatsoever that if you two sat down for a beer summit, you'd end up laughing. Maybe you should go down to Lucille's Tonk and have a few rounds together.

Maybe Obama could host it! :grin01:

 

[LBoz]

Maybe Obama could host it! :grin01:

He's busy spending all our beer money. I was thinking more along the lines of Oprah! :laugh:

 

[wade]

You are all right. I allow Chris to get under my skin and that makes me something less. I am a little touchy on the subject of suicide. I let it go too far. I apologize for my part in it.

Lori, it is not all over the forum it is here on this thread and you don’t have to read it.

 

[wilomn]

You are all right. I allow Chris to get under my skin and that makes me something less. I am a little touchy on the subject of suicide. I let it go too far. I apologize for my part in it.

Lori, it is not all over the forum it is here on this thread and you don’t have to read it.

Appology with a little SMACK to take the sting out of having to make it, eh?