Nitelion94
I am The Nitelion
Ive noticed lol. They like all ways fight in my threads tho for some reason....
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O my gosh I want a ball python!!!!
- Thread starter Nitelion94
- Start date
Ive noticed lol. They like all ways fight in my threads tho for some reason....
Nitelion94
I am The Nitelion
Wow.......
VickyChaiTea
Snake enthusiast
I already said there are no studies out there to give statistics. I just know the risk is there, and I will NOT take it. I also don't feed live because there IS pain involved when being crushed by a predator, it's simple fact. You absolutely cannot tell me that being squeezed harder and harder every time you exhale doesn't hurt. Yes, they DO scream/squeal. Yes, they DO eat pinkies/fuzzies alive. I have fed a ball python live fuzzies before, they DID squeal and it WAS eaten alive.
And are you seriously trying to imply that feeding live is healthier? If feeding frozen/thawed was bad for snakes wouldn't the thousands across the country be... oh, I don't know, unhealthy? Wouldn't they show signs of being fed a poor diet? Maybe just a little.
Ball pythons injured by their food:
http://home.comcast.net/~mickeysnightmare/MNHealth/Injury/Injury.htm
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100317092434AAExiaG
http://www.reptileknowledge.com/news/ball-python-bitten-by-rat-now-it-wont-eat/
http://forums.waterwolves.com/index.php?showtopic=83322
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...d-BP-last-night-Advice-pls!&highlight=injured
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?87228-Bit-by-a-mouse&highlight=injured
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?80904-Need-some-perspective-(gore)&highlight=injured
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?81210-HELP!!!-Snake-was-bit-by-a-rat&highlight=injured
They DO get hurt. And NOT always because the mouse/rat is left in overnight, or because it's too big.
And so what if an already dead/unconscious mouse defecates in a CO2 chamber? A mouse being squeezed to death and messing all over itself is completely different.
"These animals are built to kill their prey as quickly and efficiently as possible. " And does any predator always succeed 100% of the time? What's that? No? That's my point.
Your points as to why it's ok to feed live is that they were bred to die, dying sucks, they're going to die anyway so whatever. Because death isn't anything big. Well it's a damn big thing to the mouse. Go strangle a dog bred to be strangled to death. Same thing. Oh, and don't forget to crush it's torso too. See if that goes over well. Yeah, it may fight back, but what are the chances it'll actually hurt you? And yeah, it's in pain, but it was bred to be killed, right? When it's a dog or cat, suddenly it's wrong. See how shallow you're being? Why should you judge an animals worth on how cute it is, how smart it is, how big it is, or what it was bred for? All of a sudden, since it was bred to be killed, it doesn't matter if it dies painfully?
And are you seriously trying to imply that feeding live is healthier? If feeding frozen/thawed was bad for snakes wouldn't the thousands across the country be... oh, I don't know, unhealthy? Wouldn't they show signs of being fed a poor diet? Maybe just a little.
Ball pythons injured by their food:
http://home.comcast.net/~mickeysnightmare/MNHealth/Injury/Injury.htm
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100317092434AAExiaG
http://www.reptileknowledge.com/news/ball-python-bitten-by-rat-now-it-wont-eat/
http://forums.waterwolves.com/index.php?showtopic=83322
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...d-BP-last-night-Advice-pls!&highlight=injured
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?87228-Bit-by-a-mouse&highlight=injured
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?80904-Need-some-perspective-(gore)&highlight=injured
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?81210-HELP!!!-Snake-was-bit-by-a-rat&highlight=injured
They DO get hurt. And NOT always because the mouse/rat is left in overnight, or because it's too big.
And so what if an already dead/unconscious mouse defecates in a CO2 chamber? A mouse being squeezed to death and messing all over itself is completely different.
"These animals are built to kill their prey as quickly and efficiently as possible. " And does any predator always succeed 100% of the time? What's that? No? That's my point.
Your points as to why it's ok to feed live is that they were bred to die, dying sucks, they're going to die anyway so whatever. Because death isn't anything big. Well it's a damn big thing to the mouse. Go strangle a dog bred to be strangled to death. Same thing. Oh, and don't forget to crush it's torso too. See if that goes over well. Yeah, it may fight back, but what are the chances it'll actually hurt you? And yeah, it's in pain, but it was bred to be killed, right? When it's a dog or cat, suddenly it's wrong. See how shallow you're being? Why should you judge an animals worth on how cute it is, how smart it is, how big it is, or what it was bred for? All of a sudden, since it was bred to be killed, it doesn't matter if it dies painfully?
vetusvates
Gamaliel's Principle
Built of the fetid dismembered parts, scavenged from cadavers in the cold earth of the local graveyard...
Frankenstein (1931).
Frankenstein (1931).
Hypancistrus
New member
Hey Eric!! How you been, buddy?
snakewispera snr
The Devils Advocate
Andrew.... I have never met someone as obtuse as you can be....
Right I'll explain, but you already know this answer, you just like being awkward....
Bp are timid, easy to handle and tend to not be willing to bit... They stay at a comfortable size and all these things together make them popular with newbs... Then comes the amount of genetic work that has been done with them and the high prices they command..... This is why Bp are more prolific...
Burms, Bloods and retics have reputations that go with them.... Either big, they bite or both...
Now I have spelled it out, but you knew all of that, so why be awkward...
I just made a statement in it's simplistic form as I thought you could fill in the blanks with your 13 years of Bp experience...
BTW... Exactly what are you breeding in the way of Bp... All normals or are you into double, triple, quadruple gene animals...?
Obviously you just don't realize the workings of constriction in boid's; Pythons especially. It's much different than the asphyxiation method used in colubrids.
As for being 'crushed' by a predator. They're not. The more pain inflicted, the more prey struggles. The more the prey struggles, the more likely it will escape. As I've said before, the heart is stopped. Not breathing. Death is much too quick for asphyxiation.
At the same time, up until the late 90's or early 2000's, you either killed and froze feeders you bred, or you used live. A decade is not long enough to state that there are absolutely no adverse effects. Like I've said, have you ever compared a Ball Python feeding on f/t to a Ball Python feeding on live? How about clutch count, or breeding activity?
I'll tell you this; we had females on their second season last year lay 9+ eggs. If there were so many detrimental scenarios with live prey, they should be either slugging out, re-absorbing, dying from stress, or throwing somewhere around 2-4 eggs from built stress and any type of 'nasty' diseases, illnesses, bacteria and parasites their immune systems have to fight off...
I'm still waiting on those critical injuries, eye gouges, etc. I see some of those injuries where prey was left in the cage for prolonged periods. Improper practice. Another where they 'received' the snake 'mauled' without too much background on that injury other than the individual handling the Ball Python like a venomous snake. If you're going to try, do better.
And by the time they do 'mess' all over themselves, they're already gone. It's a total loss of bodily function. Not pressure exerted on the abdomen. As far as that, your argument is bunk.
Re-read what I've stated. It ties right back into pain, quickness of death, and what they're built for. Do you know how the large majority of these scenario's play out with boids? They either miss due to the animal jumping/dodging, or they hit. If they hit, the prey is done.
If you're really that worried about the mouse's feelings, perhaps you should consider a gecko for a pet? If the mouse had a choice, just as I stated, to be drown/suffocated, or have a quick death, which do you think it would choose? Either way, it's going to die. And as I've said, death from CO2 isn't as painless as you'd like to believe. Have you ever breathed in a large amount of CO2? Do you know what it feels like?...
[quo]Go strangle a dog bred to be strangled to death. Same thing. Oh, and don't forget to crush it's torso too. See if that goes over well. Yeah, it may fight back, but what are the chances it'll actually hurt you?[/quote]
You really have some demons in your closet, don't you? Again, the prey isn't crushed. But keep throwing your ace in the hole out there.
As for me 'strangling' an animal. Guess what? Although I have hands, I am not a product of millions of years of evolution, built specifically to stop an animals heart through a quick squeeze process, now am I?
Now who's said I was being shallow? :shrugs: Go to other parts of the world, and see how your political correctness changes on that dog or cat. At the end of the day regardless of a dog, cat, rat, chicken, goat, cricket, etc... they are all bred for a specific purpose, and they fulfill that purpose. Do you really think they're going to die without any pain, or agony what so ever? Agony is a form of pain. You don't necessarily need to feel physical stimuli pain such as a prick or sting in order to feel it. As before... I'd choose the quick way out. I'll pass on going out any other way.
First, if I don't have any experience to back myself in an argument, I won't argue or debate. It's that simple. As for being awkward? No. I like facts, I like proof, and I like correct information.snakewispera snr said:
As for your argument and me knowing the answer. Perhaps you didn't know that answer when you made your statement. Your statement was exactly so...
Morphs have really only started to boom for the past 7 years or so. Before that, yes there were a dozen or so morphs, yet at the same time there were the same for other boid species. What about B. c. i.? Yes they get large, yet not ridiculously overwhelming for any Tom, Dick, or Harry.snakewispera snr said:
What's funny is you had actually proven my point. If Ball Pythons were so picky, and required such spot on temperatures, why did they expand so much? Why did they pretty much overtake the market, both for beginners and experienced? Exactly that...
-Forgiving of husbandry errors
-Feed readily
-Come in an array of beautiful colors, normals included
-Timid, mild mannered, and are reluctant to bite
-Almost anyone with a general run-through of them and a little bit of time, can care for one
As for the expensive morphs. That plays both ways. It plays on both the experienced keepers and popularity with them, and the beginners towards possibly owning an expensive morph some day. Do you really believe if they were that picky, beginners would work with them? Do you really believe that beginners with less than a year of experience, if not fewer than a month, would be dropping $20,000+ investments into them?
As for myself and my wife? We do produce normals. They are a byproduct of the morphs and combination's we work with. We produce 2, 3, and 4 gene animals. We are also working with 2 new morphs we have proven out over the past couple seasons, including some combo's with them. We might have a 3'rd new morph this season if his trait is genetic, and is dominant or co-dominant.
VickyChaiTea
Snake enthusiast
Oh, so you're telling me they DON'T squeeze their prey? That's something I did not know. Squeezing= pressure. They squeeze until the mouse/rat dies of asphyxiation/internal hemorrhaging. The prey is alive during this, it is in pain, and it is scared out of it's tiny little mind. Or is there something I'm missing about how ball pythons kill their food? They somehow magically kill it painlessly 100% of the time and never get hurt? They NEVER get hurt enough to kill them? The fact is that they do. The fact is, if they had not been fed live, it would not have happened. Yes, they most likely have to be left alone for the rat to chew it to pieces, but the fact is it was a LIVE rat. So yes, feeding live IS more dangerous. It would NOT have happened with a dead rat. Period.
You know what? If you're honestly going to ignore all NINE of my separate examples of ball pythons being injured, one even KILLED by being fed live prey, I don't even want to talk to you anymore. A DECADE isn't enough time for you? Are you freaking kidding me? How much time WOULD you need, hmm? Thousands of snakes being fed frozen/thawed for a decade with NO ILL EFFECTS isn't enough evidence for you? You're ignoring evidence and facts so you can continue to be selfish and irresponsible. I'm done with this.
You know what? If you're honestly going to ignore all NINE of my separate examples of ball pythons being injured, one even KILLED by being fed live prey, I don't even want to talk to you anymore. A DECADE isn't enough time for you? Are you freaking kidding me? How much time WOULD you need, hmm? Thousands of snakes being fed frozen/thawed for a decade with NO ILL EFFECTS isn't enough evidence for you? You're ignoring evidence and facts so you can continue to be selfish and irresponsible. I'm done with this.
You're a bright one, aren't you. Go back and re-read what I say, before replying. It will save some embarrassment. Better yet, here you are...
Now where in there do I specifically state that Ball Python's don't squeeze/constrict? I state that I, that's right, I am not built in the matter that they are, nore as efficiently to do that job. They (Ball Pythons), on the other hand, are.AndrewH said:
Now what happened to those poor defenseless mice, with their feelings so hurt, being crushed to death? When have you ever seen a prey item 'crushed', not constricted, but crushed by a Ball Python. I've never seen it. These aren't varanids. They don't beat and dismember their prey before feeding.
Now let's take quotes from those threads on live feeding. These quote's come from others experienced in live prey. It leaves you with a bunk argument...
I guess all of us Ball Python breeders and keepers are just plain nuts, putting our snakes lives at risk aren't we? What about all of those industry leaders in the Ball Python market feeding live. They must be inhumane, cruel, nut jobs as well? I didn't ignore your links. I told you I had seen neglected animals fed improperly. I have yet to see a dead Ball Python that was fed live using proper methods.
The unfortunate thing is; you're ignoring evidence. You're literally pulling an animal activist move. You post pictures or threads on injured animals from live prey, yet don't exactly follow through on why they're injured. I see one animal that was genuinely bitten. The bite was very minor. It looked more like a bruise than a bite. The others were neglected. Live prey was left in too long, and the prey had gotten hungry. Have you ever seen what a hungry rat will do? They will eat a snake. They don't exactly have time to 'get hungry' when proper procedure is followed through.
Guess what can happen when f/t prey items are left in the cage overnight? The prey animal does rot, bacteria can build. When bacteria is swallowed, especially from rotting prey, it causes gastro-intestinal problems including diarrhea, loose stools, bloating, discomfort, possible regurgitation, food poisoning. The list goes on.
And yes, a decade isn't enough. Especially when popularity with f/t subsides on the colubrid side of the hobby. How many studies have been done? That will show factual evidence.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
You have to ignore this guy. F/t feeding has been around a LOT longer than 10 years. Heck I was feeding f/t and f/k in '85 to boas and ball pythons.
Just as with human meat, the only time their is nutritional loss in f/t rodents is when threy are not frozen properly and developefreezer burn. Otherwise, just as with beef, poultry, fish, and pork for human consumption, there is no biological breakdown of the meat during the freezing process. AndrewH just wants to confuse you with long posts.
Yes, prey is squeezed, pressed, and constricted by ball pythons. You can see the rats struggle to breath as they are being crushed and constricted. AndrewH just wants to pretend he knows more than everyone else, but the truth of the matter he is flat out wrong.
The bottom line is that AndrewH doesn't have a single piece of evidence to support ANY of his claims. His information is just straight up wrong, and he has offered NOTHING in the way of evidenciary support. You just have to ignore these know-nothing people that come into a forum to "educate" us all. He obviously thinks he knows a lot more than he has demonstrated in this topic, and his brand of snake husbandry and advice is best left in the trash. Truly that's where it belongs.
Don't bother addressing me, AndrewH. I won't respond. You are a waste of time and a waste of breath. You can have you little topic all to yourself. I only hope that no new keepers ever take your advice because it truly is HORRIBLE information.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
Well, like most of the rest of his advice and information, AndrewH seems to make it up as he goes along. Not only that, he doesn't seem to care if it is accurate, as long as he can pretend it fits his arguments.
In other words, like everything else he has said...it's bogus. This is one of those individuals that likes to pretend he has worlds of experience, makes outrageous claims, and pretends it's all supported by "all the ball python breeders", when in reality, the only person able to choke down the garbage he vomits is himself.
And the worst part, he honestly and truly believes himself to be right. NJo matter how werong and far-stretched his ridiculous statements are in reality, in his own tiny mind, he thinks he's right. You can't debate someone with that sort of mentality. All of the facts, evidence, support and reality mean nothing to him because he can't see past his own little make-believe world.
That's why you need to just ignore him... :wavey::duck:
Now where on earth did I claim that it's only been around 10 years. It could have been around 20, or 30. Re-read my post. You didn't have companies like Rodent Pro, etc, popping up until the late 90's.
Yet here I am, backing up my information, where you throw that infamous baby fit when you cannot prove your point. You cannot prove your accuracy, or how dead wrong you are. Perhaps because if you do grab anything to prove your point, it will do nothing but disprove it? You must be one of those people that believes the Earth is flat, aren't you?
Oh? Shoot Kevin McKurley a call. How about Bob Clark? Hell, I even found out yesterday night while talking to her, that Kathy love feeds her Balls live, and the only real injury she's had was from the 70's with a baby Burmese. Hm. Like I've said, you have failed success keeping the species. I've had over a decade of success. Which speaks larger volumes?
Own little make believe world eh? If it were some make believe world, go back and re-read my posts. Pay attention to how many Ball Python breeders feed live. How many of them actually have problems? I have no problem admitting when I'm ignorant, but you're a whole nother story bud. Like I've said, I've asked plenty of questions, and I've yet to get one answer.
Actually, we use something called preservatives to preserve the meat's natural form, such as salts, liquids, and other chemicals. We don't use preservatives on rats. Freezer burn is something entirely different. As for the freezing process, we use other methods of freezing, rather than just popping them in the freezer. That helps protect them from damage due to ice crystal formations throughout the freezing process. But I suppose that's wrong, seeing as how I'm debating with you, isn't it, dude?
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
The original poster of this thread has asked several times for all this arguing to stop, he's been quite upset by it. How about starting a new thread to argue in, as he's requested?
The argument is already in this thread. Why stop the argument here, and drag it out into another thread; mucking up the board? I'm not being sarcastic, if it came off that way.
Personally, I see nothing else coming from this thread. It's either childish pot shots, personal attacks, and he claims she claims. There's nothing else to benefit from this. It's just re-iteration's, and regurgitated sayings.
As for the request. I'll honor it. There's nothing else to gain from this, and nothing else to prove. You either have some that strongly disagree, or some that strongly agree.
I really need an edit button, LOL. I forgot to add..
At the end of the day, it's not who's 'right', or who's 'wrong'. It's what works for the specific keeper, and what they have the best success with. It's just personal preference.
snakewispera snr
The Devils Advocate
It took 278 posts.....
We finally see that you can be other than obtuse....
I don't think AndrewH has been obtuse. He merely has some opinions that are different from many other people here. As usual, this tends to provoke all sorts of insults, such as yours. This doesn't help to make a forum that's useful for discussing different viewpoints.
I think this is the key to all of the discussions in this thread. Different people will have successes with different husbandry styles (as long as the basic requirements are met, of course). These snakes, both corns and ball pythons, are pretty hardy animals and can thrive even when the specific keepers use somewhat different approaches.