OH NO! I have eggs.

[NFS07]

Not really, but it seems like I have been seeing more and more of these types of threads and they all seem to have one thing in common the snakes were co-habed. It's driving me nuts. You would think people would understand now and I don't understand why people don't spend at the VERY least an hour looking up the type of snake they want. In this case Corn snakes. Type it in to google. Bamn right away you have a caresheet, a few breeders, kingsnake.com and sixth down is a forum about corn snakes (our site here). It's that easy so why don't people do this? People use google everyday so why not before they get their snake. Why not before they throw them both into a tank, and why not before they have eggs poping out of their snake?

Is there anything we can do or should we just keep trying to help these people knowning that they may not care enough to get two tanks rather then one? It's annoying I think.

Bye.

 

[Roy Munson]

Here's the thing. The average newbie corn owner often gets their care info from the person or store they're buying the snake(s) from. They assume that since the seller knows more about corns than they do, their advice can be trusted. Corns are easy. We like to pretend it's rocket science, but it's not. A seller could provide the following minimal guidelines, and 99% of the time the corns would be fine:

1. You can keep corns together.
2. If your room temps are at least 75*, you don't need additional heat.
3. Feed them a mouse every week and always provide water.

Now, for those of us who are passionate about the hobby, we may buy books or hang around a place like this and learn what is necessary for OPTIMAL care of corn snakes. But some people are just picking up a pet or two. They're not interested in becoming cornsnake "experts". They follow the minimal guidelines given to them by the seller, and they see their snakes thrive for two years and justifiably assume that all is well. Then the eggs come. And STILL, it's not the end of the world. :shrugs:

 

[Cegninedorf]

I'm not necessarily passionate about the corn snake hobby (ok, I wasn't initially!), but I was terribly paranoid, especially about caring for other living creatures (from baby-sitting to snakes, it runs the gamut). My first snake did come from a pet store, and I was too excited about the snake to listen to a word that the salesperson was telling me...but due to my ol'paranoia, I'd done my "research" and the one viv for the one snake was already awaiting my Maizie when I finally got her home...

However, I think it doesn't matter what a salesperson tells a buyer -- s/he isn't listening, just like I wasn't, and they're going to do what they *thought* s/he heard to do...I've found that people, in general, are terrible at listening, or just highly selective when it comes to it. I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to inundate the "big name" pet stores with proper care sheets &/or send them copies of their own caresheets, edited, and see if that helps to bring about a change.

My itty-bitty two cents' worth...

 

[ghosthousecorns]

The thing I've noticed is that though the anti co habbing advice is given here and on other sites, there are a LOT of people in the herp world who do it anyway. You can talk until you are blue in the face, they won't listen because it has never caused them a problem (Yet)
If only the only information in the world about corn snakes came from here. But when you have pet shops cohabbing, or people who have cohabbed and bred the snake they just sold you. These people are supposed to know how to keep snakes and if you are a newby you will think their advice is sound.
So you put those two cute little babies in the same tank, and look how cute it is they like to curl up in the same hide! They take baths together in the water bowl!
Until bam, one day you find eggs in the tank. Huh? I didnt know its a boy and a girl snake? What to do, what to do?
I guess coming here and posting one of those "help oopsie" type of threads is the answer for some. I'd rather see them come here and ask than go to the idiot who told them it was OK to cohab in the first place, though :shrugs:

 

[Roy Munson]

I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to inundate the "big name" pet stores with proper care sheets &/or send them copies of their own caresheets, edited, and see if that helps to bring about a change.

Why bother? Do you think that they're going to tell people or provide care sheets that tell people that cohabbing isn't recommended while they're cohabbing a bunch of snakes in their display tanks? Unlikely. And if some kid has the money for one setup and two snakes, do you think the stores will talk the kid out of purchasing the second snake? Unlikely.

 

[alan]

Here's a favorite rant of mine...
I don't see why someone with internet access doesn't check out everything they do. I've seen this "lack of Googling" in a whole bunch of people.
We had a guy in our office who was on the computer all day, mostly goofing off, chatting and playing games. He would take the time to walk back into the shop and ask me things like "how do I get there","how much do they sell -X- for","is it possible to buy an -X-".
I am often asked questions by people who spend their day at a computer with internet access. I know it's not because they only "work" with them because they play games alot, a whole lot.
..end of rant, thank you.

 

[Tula_Montage]

What annoys me most are these people that end up with accidental eggs from their 2 year old undersized cohabed pair generally seem to have a fantastic hatch rate. And people like myself spend 3-4 years getting corn pairs to optimum health and breeding condition and end up with slugs etc. Thats irony for you...

 

[snakewispera snr]

Yep it totally amazes me as well...
All the worlds knowledge at our fingertips for the first time in history....We can now, for the first time ever, all be experts....And yet people still ask the most basic questions....WHY?

 

[Roy Munson]

Yep it totally amazes me as well...
All the worlds knowledge at our fingertips for the first time in history....We can now, for the first time ever, all be experts....And yet people still ask the most basic questions....WHY?

Hah! I have a stock answer that I give almost every time someone sitting at a computer asks me a silly question: You're sitting in front of the greatest repository of information mankind has ever assembled. Why are you asking ME?

 

[Tula_Montage]

Yep it totally amazes me as well...
All the worlds knowledge at our fingertips for the first time in history....We can now, for the first time ever, all be experts....And yet people still ask the most basic questions....WHY?

Because people want to take the easy route... It's far easier to ask questions than it is to research.

I know I like to ask questions... It's a pet hate for some of my friends as I question everything and anything. But It's another way of gaining knowledge for me. If you don't ask, you will never find out... thats my motto.

I guess some are more comfortable getting advice from people they assume have more knowledge than them.

 

[alan]

Because people want to take the easy route... It's far easier to ask questions than it is to research.

I can understand that, but that was exactly my point in my above post. This guy would leave his desk, walk through the shop, find me wherever I was, then ask a me a question that I may not know the answer to.
The answer could have been right in front of him in less time than it takes to log on to "Fred'sSiteOfGamesToPlayAtWork.com" without even moving his feet.

 

[Tula_Montage]

I can understand that, but that was exactly my point in my above post. This guy would leave his desk, walk through the shop, find me wherever I was, then ask a me a question that I may not know the answer to.
The answer could have been right in front of him in less time than it takes to log on to "Fred'sSiteOfGamesToPlayAtWork.com" without even moving his feet.

So perhaps it's back to the idea of maybe not convenience but respect for those they ASSUME have more knowledge than them?

 

[alan]

Could be that, could be he was lonely, could be he was sweet on me, it just seems easier and more efficient to help yourself.

 

[Joejr14]

What annoys me most are these people that end up with accidental eggs from their 2 year old undersized cohabed pair generally seem to have a fantastic hatch rate. And people like myself spend 3-4 years getting corn pairs to optimum health and breeding condition and end up with slugs etc. Thats irony for you...

I was talking to Dean earlier about this when he was picking up his males from breeding loan....

Probably because what we have in mind as 'optimal health and breeding condition' is really not optimal in all cases. I think you're much safer breeding a 250 gram female as opposed to a 700 gram fat one. I've had a few 'smaller' adult females and they've all done fantastic as breeders. They've all been lean and mean, but they've produced 100% fertile clutches and never had a binding problem.

We spend so much time rearing up a snake and trying to get it to pack the weight on in order to enhance breeding, especially in egg count. I had an almost 500 gram phantom lay 10 eggs last year....and a 275 gram anery/lav lay 17 eggs this morning. What's the rationale behind that? My opinion is that female weight has nothing to do with egg count.

I think we'd all be better off if we stopped aiming for 700 gram adults and kept it in the range of 350.

 

[Tula_Montage]

I was talking to Dean earlier about this when he was picking up his males from breeding loan....

Probably because what we have in mind as 'optimal health and breeding condition' is really not optimal in all cases. I think you're much safer breeding a 250 gram female as opposed to a 700 gram fat one. I've had a few 'smaller' adult females and they've all done fantastic as breeders. They've all been lean and mean, but they've produced 100% fertile clutches and never had a binding problem.

We spend so much time rearing up a snake and trying to get it to pack the weight on in order to enhance breeding, especially in egg count. I had an almost 500 gram phantom lay 10 eggs last year....and a 275 gram anery/lav lay 17 eggs this morning. What's the rationale behind that? My opinion is that female weight has nothing to do with egg count.

I think we'd all be better off if we stopped aiming for 700 gram adults and kept it in the range of 350.

Weight wasn't the point of my post. I was merely stating that it seems ironically unfair that those who put preperation and knowledge into a breeding program can have worse luck than those who end up just finding a clutch of eggs from their cohabed pair.

I don't agree with keeping females small. Generally corns are not fully grown at 350 grams. There are small corns ie miamis and there are equally large corns. But keeping a corn @ 350 grams because she produces 17 eggs is laughable. I won't deny my snakes the food they need to grow. My largest female is 530 grams and is fed one medium mouse every 7 days. If she gets anymore she becomes bloated, but still puts on around 10 grams a month.

I absolutly disagree with feeding to pack on weight, however I think it's far worse to feed survivial diets instead of growth diets for 2-3 year old females. Going by your logic, once they have the weight to produce a large clutch of eggs you feel it's ok to stunt their growth and keep them at that particular weight because they meet your criteria? You are right in that there are so many optimums in captivity but what about in the wild? Do you know of any data collected regarding females found laying (ie weights or lengths). I would be extremely interested if anyone had that sort of info to share.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Joe didn't say anything about stunting their growth or keeping a snake at a certain weight because she produces more eggs. He is talking about OBESE snakes being bred and having small clutches. Their is a BIG difference between a toned 300g snake and a FAT 600g snake...A lot of it is in relation to their length. I am REALLY surprised you assumed any of that...

None of my breeder females are over 400g and they get fed appropriate meals weekly...My larger ones (500g+) are all males for some reason and take weanling rats.

 

[Joejr14]

Weight wasn't the point of my post. I was merely stating that it seems ironically unfair that those who put preperation and knowledge into a breeding program can have worse luck than those who end up just finding a clutch of eggs from their cohabed pair.

I don't agree with keeping females small. Generally corns are not fully grown at 350 grams. There are small corns ie miamis and there are equally large corns. But keeping a corn @ 350 grams because she produces 17 eggs is laughable. I won't deny my snakes the food they need to grow. My largest female is 530 grams and is fed one medium mouse every 7 days. If she gets anymore she becomes bloated, but still puts on around 10 grams a month.

I absolutly disagree with feeding to pack on weight, however I think it's far worse to feed survivial diets instead of growth diets for 2-3 year old females. Going by your logic, once they have the weight to produce a large clutch of eggs you feel it's ok to stunt their growth and keep them at that particular weight because they meet your criteria? You are right in that there are so many optimums in captivity but what about in the wild? Do you know of any data collected regarding females found laying (ie weights or lengths). I would be extremely interested if anyone had that sort of info to share.

And my point was that at 2 years old those particular females are on the smaller side....and you're not going to run into the issue of obese snake that creates a huge array of breeding problems.

700 gram obese, fatty snakes with no muscle tone are going to have problems as breeders. I am not going to feed a snake so it gets anywhere near that level. I NEVER said that I don't feed my snakes in an effort to keep them small, and I have no idea where in the heck you would have picked that up in my post.

And I would agrue that many corns are fully grown at 350 grams. Just because your single adult female isn't 350 grams doesn't make it the rule. I can guarantee you that most of my adult females are between 275 and 400 grams, and I've yet to have a single egg binding problem. If skipping a meal or two along the way keeps them from getting 600 grams and fat ridden, then I'm certainly going to do it. They don't need to eat a 'moose' every 7 days to be healthy. Males....sure, stuff em away. They don't need to be 'fit and trim' to be good breeders, but females definitely do.

So taken directly from your website....

I expect her to be of breeding size in 2009 as I like my females AT LEAST over 400 grams.

Why at least 400 grams? So you're not going to breed a healthy, muscle toned female at 300 or 350 grams?

 

[Tula_Montage]

Joe didn't say anything about stunting their growth or keeping a snake at a certain weight because she produces more eggs. He is talking about OBESE snakes being bred and having small clutches. Their is a BIG difference between a toned 300g snake and a FAT 600g snake...A lot of it is in relation to their length. I am REALLY surprised you assumed any of that...

None of my breeder females are over 400g and they get fed appropriate meals weekly...My larger ones (500g+) are all males for some reason and take weanling rats.

Well no he kinda did... "I think we'd all be better off if we stopped aiming for 700 gram adults and kept it in the range of 350". My interpretation of that is keep a female at 350 grams because she produces more eggs than a 700 gram female :shrugs:

How is obesity measured in corns btw? I think we all have different perceptions on fatty snakes and muscle tone etc. Ones skinny snake is anothers lean muscly snake.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Severely obese snakes will have "hips"...Fugly had some bad hips when I first got her and dieting here and while she's been with Dean has decreased them. They will also be cushy and just disproportioned their circumference versus their length. These are cornsnakes, not ball pythons. None of my snakes are obese (except Fugly was when I first got her, but she's much better now), so I can't provide example photos.

 

[alan]

And even though your snakes aren't fat, people still do not find out information before getting a snake?