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"Original" Granites

MohrSnakes said:
If you breed one of these "Granite" Corns to a Striped cornsnake do you get Stripes and Vanishing Stripes?

Interesting question!

Furthermore, to add a twist to this whole name game, by accomplishing the above breeding do you get stripes het "Granite"? Or do you just get stripes?

No twist at all. If the genes are allelic and (with a high probability) the same mutation, then one would get stripes. Since "Key" is not a genetic trait. If Granite is a different gene, you'd get Normals het. granite, striped. The true question would be - are only pure Keys hom for Granite called Granite?
:shrugs:
 
I changed my signature so that my "granites" are listed as anery-diffused. It just felt like the right thing to do. Now if I could only get out of the HABIT of calling them granites.....

But I truly prefer trade names, especially when we have triple and quadriple homozygous morphs.
I hope this gets resolved, one way or another.
 
dionythicus said:
Obviously I have missed much of the debate about who had what and when, I said as much in my earlier post. I'm seeing this from a different angle than most, maybe.

Perhaps it should come down to who holds the legal trademark on a name. If its so important to have your name attached to something new and you want the credit for naming it, and I'll admit that it is important to some people, then you should look into the legal aspect of it. If you want your new purple and green morph called Alien corns, I suggest you get a registered trademark so you can protect it. Otherwise, there can't be any legal protection against someone else using it. It may not make the public like it or use it, but you can at least stop anyone else from taking it for their red and green corns, or pink and black corns, or calling purple and green corns "Mars" corns or "UFO" corns. It wouldn't matter what the public says, you would have sole right to that name and that morph.
(...)
I would like to this conflict with the name Granite be resolved peacefully but plainly there will be hard feelings if we continue to use the term in reference to diffused anery. I'm sorry about that, I would like to see the right people get credit for this. I don't know if that will happen.
Well, IANAL, but my understanding of trademark as opposed to copyright or patents is that you are legally obliged to enforce it or you lose it. If you have knowledge of an infringement and you do not do some sort of cease-and-desist proceedings, then you actively give up your claim to the trademark. And the "theft", if such you want to call it, becomes legal at that time and you can no longer say that anyone stole anything whether or not you came up with it in the same field of business, and whether or not the second party was aware of this, because stealing is defined in the legal lexicon. So, try "acquired" instead.

I would say that since this name has been used throughout the industry at shows and whatnot, and given the ad itself, then there is little grounds to prove that the originator of the term was unaware of the usage. Therefore, we can take our idea of "right" to be over and above that which is established in the law books, but when we do so then we are making up our own rules again, and we cannot apparently get a sufficient quorum for that here, according to the very people who claim that something was done that does not fit this stricter term of "right".

In conclusion, there is a strong case to be made that this is a non-issue, and as Dale noted, the marketplace will rule.

-Sean
 
Well, I am a lawyer and even though I do not practice in the Trademark area I have done a couple of Trademark applications over the years. What I do is that the first use in commerce, which seems to be the 1999 Datona show established the right to a trademark. The whole issue then becomes one of confusion: were the public consumers confused by the use of the term "Granite" for the Anery Bloods? If they were, and this whole discsussion seems to prove that to be the case, there is an infringment. The argument could be made that the use of the term for the Anery Bloods impeded the sale or development of the Keys version. If an application for a trademark were to be filed, I think the Originators of the Keys version and the name Granite would win. (I do not mean for this to be taken as legal advice, only to establish why I have the opinion I have).

We need a new name for the Anery Bloods.
 
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So then, who was the first to originate the Anery Bloodreds? Don has indicated that he was one of the first to list them at his website. Do you (Don) have a preference for a different name. I personally don't have any issues with changing, and calling them something new or different or whatever. Where do we start? Have any other forums or private (read non-internet) individuals been brought into this discussion?

D80
 
SODERBERGD said:
I'm inviting you to dig into the archives of this forum and you'll see that there was ample warning and proof that the name was already taken.
I took you up on your invitation, Don. It took a lot of time to assemble these links. I couldn't find much else pertaining to the granite issue. But at least members can see where this was discussed in the past. Believe me, I'm not writing this to "call you out" or anything, but you did use the term granite for anery-bloods in the link I provide from September of last year. You did not mention the Keys-morph granites in that post. :shrugs:

August ’03: Clint Boyer references a patternless corn being called granite.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7348

January ’04: One page thread with early granite reference.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9794.html

September ’04: Rich refers to Craig Boyd and Boyd’s original Keys-morph granites.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/printthread.php?t=14876

November ’04: Passing reference to the name granite being applied to “other things” than anery-bloods.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15732

January ’05: References to granite being applied to different morphs.
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/printthread.php?t=16974&page=1&pp=10

February ’05: Don Soderberg references his previous warnings against using the granite name for anery-bloods.
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18362&page=6&pp=10&highlight=granite

September ’06: Don Soderberg uses the name granite to describe an anery-blood. No mention is made of Keys-morph granites.
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39773&highlight=granite
 
I personally have no problem with "raider" corns, even though I'm not a football fan. I don't want the originator hurt by this, and would like it if "granite" used for anery-diffused was changed. But what I want and $1.42 will get me an iced coffee! If the name IS changed there is also the problem of getting the word out to the masses.

I know this will be resolved over time, but I am an impatient woman!
 
Roy Munson said:
I took you up on your invitation, Don. It took a lot of time to assemble these links. I couldn't find much else pertaining to the granite issue. But at least members can see where this was discussed in the past. Believe me, I'm not writing this to "call you out" or anything, but you did use the term granite for anery-bloods in the link I provide from September of last year. You did not mention the Keys-morph granites in that post. :shrugs:

August ’03: Clint Boyer references a patternless corn being called granite.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7348

January ’04: One page thread with early granite reference.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9794.html

September ’04: Rich refers to Craig Boyd and Boyd’s original Keys-morph granites.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/printthread.php?t=14876

November ’04: Passing reference to the name granite being applied to “other things” than anery-bloods.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15732

January ’05: References to granite being applied to different morphs.
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/printthread.php?t=16974&page=1&pp=10

February ’05: Don Soderberg references his previous warnings against using the granite name for anery-bloods.
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18362&page=6&pp=10&highlight=granite

September ’06: Don Soderberg uses the name granite to describe an anery-blood. No mention is made of Keys-morph granites.
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39773&highlight=granite


Whoa Dean, I wish I could rep you for this.
That is some awesome digging!
 
Well, I figured I'd look into anything from a law-related site which does deal in trademark issues, and found this right off: http://www.ivanhoffman.com/trademark.html.

Relevant part of page:
Trademarks must be aggressively protected by the owner to keep them from falling into the public domain and the owner losing the protection of the mark. This means that if the owner fails to protect its mark and allows it to be used in unauthorized ways or in ways that may cause it to cease being identified in the mind of the public solely with the goods and services of the owner, the protection may be lost. This is because the trademark is based upon identification of the mark with a particular source and if the owner of the mark shows an indication that it does not care much about protecting that source identification, the mark may lose its value to that owner and the court may strip that owner of the protection the mark originally afforded.​

So, I don't think this guy has much recourse now. The public is officially confused, and he'd have a harder time than Hormel did with Spam. Good thing they look different.

-Sean
 
Eremita said:
Well, I figured I'd look into anything from a law-related site which does deal in trademark issues, and found this right off: http://www.ivanhoffman.com/trademark.html.

Relevant part of page:
Trademarks must be aggressively protected by the owner to keep them from falling into the public domain and the owner losing the protection of the mark. This means that if the owner fails to protect its mark and allows it to be used in unauthorized ways or in ways that may cause it to cease being identified in the mind of the public solely with the goods and services of the owner, the protection may be lost. This is because the trademark is based upon identification of the mark with a particular source and if the owner of the mark shows an indication that it does not care much about protecting that source identification, the mark may lose its value to that owner and the court may strip that owner of the protection the mark originally afforded.​

So, I don't think this guy has much recourse now. The public is officially confused, and he'd have a harder time than Hormel did with Spam. Good thing they look different.

-Sean


Someone hatching out some corns and calling them 'granites' do not constitute a trademark. Not even close.

There is and never would have been any 'legal' recourse regarding the issue.
 
When in Rome . . .

Roy Munson said:
I took you up on your invitation, Don. It took a lot of time to assemble these links. I couldn't find much else pertaining to the granite issue. But at least members can see where this was discussed in the past. Believe me, I'm not writing this to "call you out" or anything, but you did use the term granite for anery-bloods in the link I provide from September of last year. You did not mention the Keys-morph granites in that post. :shrugs:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah, I see that I did refer to those as GRANITES, but did so while I was biting my tongue. I put that in parentheses so they would realize what I was talking about. Since this forum ROME speaks that language, I cited their word for it. Of course, you will notice they're anery bloods on my web site. You'll see that I don't even AKA for nick names of those. The whole issue upsets me so much, I can't imagine me ever calling them granites. I know most of you won't understand why I'm mad about it, but it's obvious that when they chose to use that name KNOWING it was already used elsewhere, it really got under my skin. When they refused to listen to Rich and me, well . . . I guess you can tell it's still there. Under my skin. Arrgggh.

I'm very impressed with everyone having open minds about this problem. I never wanted anyone to analyze the legal aspects. I know about protecting copyrights and clearly, that wasn't being done. Who is going to hire attorneys to fight the theft of a corn snake morph name? Who has that much money in this business? My appeals to everyone here weren't to analyze whether a crime had been committed, but to 1) recognize that the name WAS stolen and 2) help figure out a way to fix this. You see, my main reason for doing this is my upcoming book. At this point, I intend to call the original one granite and the anery bloods anery bloods. Unless we come up with a mutually agreeable solution, people will see that the two latest corn snake books are calling the brown ones GRANITES while the Internet calls the black ones GRANITES. They'll be faced with wondering, "are those two book authors so out of touch they don't know what's going on OR are the forums divorcing themselves from the printed media?". Once they see the testimonies that proved the name was in commerce when it was virtually reassigned to the anery bloods, the credibility of the forums could come under scrutiny. Of course, one relative blemish like this isn't going to sway people to stop trusting Internet forums, but it would be better if the books and the Internet were parallel. My goal is to find a way to make the books (mind and Kathy's) agree on the names for these morphs. I don't see a clear solution, but I hope we can come up with something.

Thank you all for your time and concerted efforts to look at this objectively. I never wanted opinions about the legitimacy of name ownership as much as I wanted to give folks a chance to stop me from adding one more book to our libraries that has a glaring contradiction of morphs name. Re: Internet Vs printed publications.

I will soon be asking for images that I'd like to put in this book. It will have over 300 images and I'd like good photographs from as many people as possible. Unlike some of the books out there, each person that supplies a photograph will be credited in the caption of the picture. Not at the end of the book in a paragraph nobody reads. I will soon give details of the size and quality prerequisites for the images.
 
[deleted response to jaxom's deleted post]

I unintentionally created a discussion fork by responding to Dionythicus's post with the idea that the law could provide a model for what is legitimate use of a term. Joe is right, though; you cannot claim any legal ownership of a name that you apply to some batch of Corn Snake genes.

So: if Don feel that his point has been made, maybe we can all just do whatever it is we were going to do now.

-Sean
 
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Don, I have enormous respect for both you and Rich Z. I would like to see this resolved. Maybe work to establish a new trade name for anery-diffused and list them "newtradename" (formerly known as granites), much like lavenders (formerly known as mocha).
Here is a dumb observation on my part, but technically "anery-bloods" and "anery-diffused" are the same thing. That might be confusing to some people. I personally prefer "anery-diffused" because they are not red and because the bloodred in them has been outcrossed with anery so calling them anery-diffused makes more sense to me.
Do you have any ideas on how to start resolving this issue?
 
Jungle Motley

:-offtopic But since it was brought up. Actually Brian Barczyk was selling Jungle Motley corns a few years before Kathy's first book ever came out. I had a pair of hatchlings that I bought from Brian at the old Columbus show,( Prior to Mark & Kim Bell moving to Florida).I raised them to adulthood and had already bred them before the first edition came out.
I was quite surprised to see them renamed Hurricane. :shrugs: I guess times change & so does the perception of the names, After all isn't it all about marketing? :shrugs:
 
Joejr14 said:
Someone hatching out some corns and calling them 'granites' do not constitute a trademark. Not even close.

There is and never would have been any 'legal' recourse regarding the issue.
If I could only rep you I would.
 
SODERBERGD said:
I will soon be asking for images that I'd like to put in this book. It will have over 300 images and I'd like good photographs from as many people as possible. Unlike some of the books out there, each person that supplies a photograph will be credited in the caption of the picture. Not at the end of the book in a paragraph nobody reads. I will soon give details of the size and quality prerequisites for the images.
Don,

You can count me in for pics.

:crazy02:
 
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