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"Original" Granites

They aren't labeled as such on his web site (however "View Image" does show the file titled granite). Those pictures have been on his web site for several years (I've purchased Leos from Jeff before).

I think perhaps by the description and those photos, it is in fact a Vanishing Keys Stripe.
 
I just got off the phone with Jeff. :cool:

The snake he has listed on his web site is a sub adult. His original female "Granite" had died from egg binding her first year of breeding with him. The pairing he did was Miami x "Granite." He says the offspring produced turned out to be nice Miamis.

He's spent the past couple years raising the hets and paired them to produce the "Granites" and 66% hets he's selling now. So currently he has no adult "Granites," but babies he is raising.

He has not paired a Granite with a Stripe and doesn't plan to (he doesn't work with them). Though it does sound like he has plans for some very cool projects. :)

It sounds like this mutation has had a rough history which is why we haven't seen them. Rumor has it that an entire colony of them was wiped out in a fire. Then there's also the rumor that some were having problems with the animals surviving and thriving.

Jeff also said if I plan on going to next months Hamburg show he'll bring a sub-adult "Granite" or two for me to take a look at up close and personal. :) If it can be arranged, I will certainly be there. :cheers:
 
blckkat said:
Jeff also said if I plan on going to next months Hamburg show he'll bring a sub-adult "Granite" or two for me to take a look at up close and personal. :) If it can be arranged, I will certainly be there. :cheers:
Click to expand...
Don't forget your camera.....I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to see more photos of these things. :rolleyes:
 
hmm

SO
You choose to ignore everything laid out in front of you and continue to argue that using an already established name is ok just because a few people on THIS forum decided it was OK? When did the few people here become the voice of the corn snake world?
I know of quite a few corn and rat snake forums where this "naming" choice was never presented. Is this the only one that matters?
I'm not quite sure how that works.

I also know of a lot of corn enthusiasts who just don't frequent any forums.
They think it is a waste of time. At times like this I can only concur.

And one of the main excuses for ignoring the name was... I can't buy one so the use of the name doesn't count???????? You've got to be kidding.
Some were sold. Just because they weren't offered here and the "naming committee" didn't have a chance to buy any does not mean they weren't sold. I would imagine that with a little effort and research they could have easily acquired a few.

You seem to have the strange belief that if it isn't here or Fauna it's insignificant. NOT SO.

KAT .... because YOU aren't provided with pictures it must all be a sham and they don't really exist and Don and other well known breeders were imagining things when they saw and purchased specimens!!
Amazingly Kathy Love posted a picture of one of these non-existant adult granites.
Oh yeah, that picture doesn't count because it is....well...only one picture.
WHAT???
And somehow the fact that some may have been lost in a fire negates their existence or rightful "claim" to the name?
once again...WHAT???



It does seem a little odd to me that he's seen the term Granite come up for the diffused anery and hasn't spoken up on the boards,
Click to expand...

Good question but..
He probably realized this exact thing would happen.
This small sampling of the corn snake world would ignore him and call him a liar and continue to use his trade name anyway.
Which is exactly what happened. It was known to be in use. It was ignored because a select few didn't have any. Somehow this became a legitimate reason to "steal" the name .

Remember this is just a small sampling of corn snake enthusiasts in the U.S. and world.

This site and it's members ARE NOT the do all and end all of the corn snake world.

I know many many enthusiasts who simply refuse to frequent this site for reasons just like this.


Yes..anyone can give a morph any name they want and people have the choice to accept it, or not, but to knowingly steal a morph name already in use is wrong.
And remember the name was known to be in use.
Just because a few people chose to ignore this fact and push for the name does not make it right.
What if I produced an emoryi/grey rat/corn cross.
Then decided to go to ONE forum and take an amazingly informal vote as to wether or not "Cinder" would be a good name for my new morph.
What if the few people on that forum decided cinder would be a good name and who cares that someone else already coined the name.
"We've never seen one so screw them, their use of the name doesn't count."
Now in my area of the country I start distributing my cinders and they start to spread through the East BumbleF market.
One day you go to a show and see a cinder and you say..."hey, that isn't a cinder, what are you doing? You can't sell that as a cinder, that's a hybrid, cinders aren't hybrids."
"who the hell are you? I've been breeding these cinders for a while now and they are known throughout East BumbleF. Your supposed cinders are bogus. mine are real"
So, now you have cinders that have a questionable look (you've seen those comments, debates and arguments) but are pure corns and cinders that are hybrids running around.
Obviously someone will get a pure cinder and a hybrid cinder and breed them together not knowing there is a genetic difference. They may just figure the morph has a variable appearance.
Now simply due to the fact someone decided to ignore the truth they have caused the pollution of a morph.

so what's going to happen when people who have a complete and total disdain for the internet and forums like this, go to a show and buy an ORIGINAL granite and somewhere down the line happen to buy the new impostor (anery blood) granite and breed them together? All of a sudden you have people offering these hatchlings to the unknowing public as granites.
Now what?
Because a few people decided to ignore an existing morph, anery bloodreds could easily be mixed with the keys corn granites. I would say the odds are pretty damn high this will happen.
Next thing you know someone breeds a granite to a "whatsit" expecting to get "whosits" and nothing hatches as planned.
Now there are three lines of granites, the original, the anery blood and unfortunately the new mix of the two.
Still think stealing a trade name is OK?
I don't

simply put
It's WRONG



I thought I would add this little tid-bit.
This "trade" name (Granite) for the anery blood that was agreed opon by the "masses" or by the "corn snake comminity" was voted on by 74 total people and only 36 voted for granite. And some of these votes are recent.
How the hell does that constitute the masses?
This name wasn't generally accepted by the corn snake community it was forced down our throats by a few people.


NOW
I guess that just about sums up my opinion on the subject

:argue:
 
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I do agree with much of what you've said, but stealing implies that the person who started calling diffused anerys Granites knew about the name Granite already in use and deliberately decided to use that name knowing that it was an established "trade name" for something totally different. I don't know that that is the case. The original Granite may have been featured in a book, but unless it was widely known by the corn community (not just one forum), I don't see that its stealing to use that name for something that apparently has become more well known. Did the first person to start using the term Granite for diffused anerys intentionally choose that name with the knowledge that someone else had begun to use that name for another morph? I would say there is a conflict of interest regarding the name Granite, but the implication of "stealing" might not be correct. This isn't a legal issue.

Just because one forum of enthusiasts likes that name for diffused anerys over the original morph doesn't make it the right or even popular name amongst the entire corn community. You are completely right about that. It is far bigger than this fourm. There are breeders who will never speak up here or on any forum for their own reasons, but these are the places most frequented by enthusiasts who want to learn and share info. Its in the breeders' best interest to keep a finger on the pulse of the community by keeping an eye on what's going on. They don't have to chime in if they think its a waste of time, but at least they and we can keep abreast of what's going on.

No one has all the answers and it will take time to resolve this issue.
 
Jimmy Johnson said:
Yes..anyone can give a morph any name they want and people have the choice to accept it, or not, but to knowingly steal a morph name already in use is wrong.
And remember the name was known to be in use.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with this, most people honestly DIDN'T know the name was used for another corn. You can't accuse people of "stealing" if they honestly did not know about the other one. Not that I am an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I had never heard of it and I know many other people hadn't either.
 
wrong

That is exactly the point
THEY DID KNOW
Don Soderberg and Rich Z. both brought this information forward.
They chose to ignore it.
If you would have read my post you would have seen this mentioned.
The reasoning they gave to ignore it???????????
They didn't feel they were "public" enough so the name wasn't valid.
The first one was presented at the '99 expo in Daytona. How "public" does it have to be.
They knowingly took a name in use. Sorry there is no other way to word it.
That is stealing.
What if you posted a picture of one of your snakes on one page in this forum and seeing that picture I decided to start using it.
You would be mad, that's stealing.
What if I used the excuse that since it was only on one page, on one forum and wasn't really made "public" as your photo, that gives me the right to use it as I see fit?
You'd be pissed. It's wrong no matter who saw it. It was knowingly taken.
That is exactly what happened with the name granite.
THEY KNEW. They made up excuses as to why it was still OK.
AND they didn't try to get a consensus of all corn snake enthusiasts or even a majority of corn snake enthusiasts, they kept it here in one section of one forum where it was voted on by a handfull of people.
sorry, stealing is stealing.
 
Stealing is a good word for this subject . . .

Rich and I both told this forum constituency the name was already being used and this is almost a quote on what I was told publically on this forum, "if we haven't heard of it on this forum, they other guy will have to change the name of his snake". This was after Rich and I told them the name was already in use. Arrogance? It was just a few months later Kathy's book came out with the picture of the REAL granite corn and I didn't hear any suggestions of re-change at that time. I was the first web site to ever list anery bloods. I was not aware of the original name change to RAIDER corns for over six months. I think the reason is that they feared I would not like the name change. When I spoke up six months after the first name change, they agreed to change it again. Someone picked a few names on which to vote and GRANITE won out. This is when I told they they couldn't that name since it was already in commerce. While I don't object to changing morph names when necessary, it's obvious to me that some of these changes are intentionally done behind the backs of the main players. Perhaps my web site was not easy to find. I guess if you're not a regular on this forum, you're not invited to participate in such proposed changes. Even if you're the first web site to feature said morphs. If being told by Rich Zuchowski and Don Soderberg that the name was not available, and still choosing to use it is not stealing, what is?

I paid $500 each for the granites I got and I suspect the others did too. I know of three people that had invested in them before the name was stolen. I indicated to this forum that there was going to be some very angry people, once they found out about this. BTW, $500 was a high price for a new morph back then.

Don Soderberg
South Mountain Reptiles
www.cornsnake.NET
 
Thanks Don and Jimmy.

I honestly didn't know about the original granites, so just didn't know any better. I will call them anery bloods from now on, or until another suitable name is decided on.

I agree with you that if the name was used by someone else first, they have full rights to that name. :)
 
Thanks, Meg . . .

Velvet said:
Thanks Don and Jimmy.

I honestly didn't know about the original granites, so just didn't know any better. I will call them anery bloods from now on, or until another suitable name is decided on.

I agree with you that if the name was used by someone else first, they have full rights to that name. :)
Click to expand...

It's great to see that someone is finally listening, albeit late. I am the first to agree that the players back then were reluctant to recognize that the name was already in use when they could not find GRANITE corns on a web site. However, when Rich and I warned them that Granites were already in commerce, they should have headed the warning not to steal that name. It shows you the POWER some feel when they think the forums are the only market-governing entities. We get so caught up in the power and magic of these forums that we don't recognize there is market activity outside the Internet. There will always be people that choose not to participate in the forums and for that matter, I suspect there will always be people that don't even have the Internet. I agree that it would not be easy to solicit the opinions of people that don't frequent this (and other) forums, but efforts should be made to seek non virtual participants, when important decisions are being proposed. I found out six months late about the first anery blood name change, but apparently it wouldn't have mattered. They ignored Rich's and my warnings anyway.

If there is ever a time this or any other forum chooses to propose changes, I think everyone should be charged with seeking out non forum parties. The proposed name change should have a 12 month deadline. When forum participants go to reptile expos, they should give notice to people they see selling that morph, in case they were unaware of the proposed name change. Then, if they elect not to participate in the process, they can't be expected to dispute it later. Having said that, this is not the only big cornsnake forum out there.

Decisions like this one will be rare. As a rule, the originator of a morph has always had the right to name them. In this case, anery blood was more of a label than a name. It may seem a clumsy and unattractive name to some of you, but it's short and to-the-point. Once you learn the basic language of cornsnake mutations, you can translate compound lables like anerythristic A, bloodred (aka; anery blood). I know we can't expect someone to spout out a name like anerythristic A, amelanistic, hypomelanistic A, striped, pied-sided, bloodred..
 
SODERBERGD said:
If there is ever a time this or any other forum chooses to propose changes, I think everyone should be charged with seeking out non forum parties. The proposed name change should have a 12 month deadline. When forum participants go to reptile expos, they should give notice to people they see selling that morph, in case they were unaware of the proposed name change. Then, if they elect not to participate in the process, they can't be expected to dispute it later. Having said that, this is not the only big cornsnake forum out there.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with anything you've written here, Don. I'm not all that passionate about the naming conventions anyway. But I think the guidelines described in the paragraph I quoted above are unrealistic. I can see these guidelines applied to newly discovered mutant genes because these discoveries are infrequent events, but many, many new combos are produced every year. Let it be known that Stephen W. and I have what we think are the first golddust-stripes, and I'm calling them "Goldribbon Corns". I guess we're all obligated to stick to that name, and seek out non-forum corn enthusiasts and spread the word. And if my "Matrix" corn is truly exhibiting a new pattern gene, then after I prove it I want the gene to be called "Mosaic". And if I make the first lava-lavender-cinder-bloodred, I want it to be called "Carnival Corn". And so on and so on.

There is no governing body of corn snake enthusiasts, so there really are no obligatory guidelines. My local pet store dude carries Red Corns, and Gray Corns, and Black Corns, and White Corns, etc..
 
@Dean I don't want to participate in this discussion, but I think you are comparing apples and oranges with your example. I think there's a huge difference in naming combos and newly discovered genes(?) that are on the market for years now.
I think one can argue about this on and on and on. Maybe everyone should ask himself if it feels right to use a name someone uses for a special morph for years for another morph, just because this person doesn't have a fancy web page or frequents the boards. I myself have the feeling that this isn't right and I am quite sure that many other people have the same feeling although arguing against it.

To me, this is a matter of respect.
 
I agree with you . . .

Roy Munson said:
I don't disagree with anything you've written here, Don. I'm not all that passionate about the naming conventions anyway. But I think the guidelines described in the paragraph I quoted above are unrealistic. I can see these guidelines applied to newly discovered mutant genes because these discoveries are infrequent events, but many, many new combos are produced every year. Let it be known that Stephen W. and I have what we think are the first golddust-stripes, and I'm calling them "Goldribbon Corns". I guess we're all obligated to stick to that name, and seek out non-forum corn enthusiasts and spread the word. And if my "Matrix" corn is truly exhibiting a new pattern gene, then after I prove it I want the gene to be called "Mosaic". And if I make the first lava-lavender-cinder-bloodred, I want it to be called "Carnival Corn". And so on and so on.

There is no governing body of corn snake enthusiasts, so there really are no obligatory guidelines. My local pet store dude carries Red Corns, and Gray Corns, and Black Corns, and White Corns, etc..
Click to expand...

The originators of morphs need not notify anyone. I'm referring to an old name being changed. If we always called them anery bloods, I think we should notify everyone that has them on their sites or that we notice selling them at the expos and advise them that changes have been proposed. If you are one of the first to introduce a morph, you need not speak to anyone regarding your decision to name it. Unless, of course, you want to find out if anyone has them in commerce and/or has already named them.

Sorry if I was confusing on that matter. I'm referring to changing names. Not making new ones.

Don
 
"if we haven't heard of it on this forum, they other guy will have to change the name of his snake". This was after Rich and I told them the name was already in use. Arrogance? It was just a few months later Kathy's book came out with the picture of the REAL granite corn and I didn't hear any suggestions of re-change at that time.
Click to expand...
I know this discussion has started here due to Steph's curiosity on the morph and it's for sale advertisement, but I'm wondering if anyone has started this discussion on the other two common cornsnake discussion boards. I ask this Don because if I recall correctly, a number of those people that made that statement don't frequent this particular forum any longer. I think it would be a valuable discussion to be had publicly in other places as well . . . including expos, etc.

:shrugs:
D80
 
It's my fervent hope that all who are concerned about the naming "conventions" of combination morphs are using the proper term "facial tissue" when blowing their nose into something that is paper-based and NOT a Kleenex®.

rolleyes.gif


Bottom Line: The Marketplace has the final say.

regards,
jazz
 
Michael and Don: I don't think we disagree. In fact, it seems that we're all pretty much on the same page. I think it's a respect issue too. I've been using the trade name "granite" to refer to anery-bloods, but I didn't know until this thread that it had been applied to other snakes years ago. I've seen "granite" used for anery-bloods by many people-- from novice hobbyists to some mid-size breeders.

But what do we do about it now? There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of anery-bloods out there that are being labeled "granite". Then there a few dozen stiped(?)-Keys-ish snakes that are being labeled "granite". I'm not saying that if a majority of corn enthusiasts are doing the wrong thing (knowingly or not) that that makes it right, but how do you overcome the intertia at this point? I wouldn't be happy if a trade-name was stolen from me, but if I were the original users of the granite trade-name, I think I'd come up with something else at this point for marketing reasons alone. They shouldn't have to, but we live in the real world. :shrugs:
 
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