"Original" Granites

[SODERBERGD]

Shrug?

Michael and Don: I don't think we disagree. In fact, it seems that we're all pretty much on the same page. I think it's a respect issue too. I've been using the trade name "granite" to refer to anery-bloods, but I didn't know until this thread that it had been applied to other snakes years ago. I've seen "granite" used for anery-bloods by many people-- from novice hobbyists to some mid-size breeders.

But what do we do about it now? There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of anery-bloods out there that are being labeled "granite". Then there a few dozen stiped(?)-Keys-ish snakes that are being labeled "granite". I'm not saying that if a majority of corn enthusiasts are doing the wrong thing (knowingly or not) that that makes it right, but how do you overcome the intertia at this point? I wouldn't be happy if a trade-name was stolen from me, but if I were the original users of the granite trade-name, I think I'd come up with something else at this point for marketing reasons alone. They shouldn't have to, but we live in the real world. :shrugs:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps the real issue here isn't so much about how to "fix" this problem as it is a warning about unethical name stealing. It's a shame that Kathy's book will be a permanent scar on the hobby. Dozens of years from now, people may say something like, "I thought Kathy knew better than to make such a mistake as calling that brown snake a granite". I guess they'll be saying the same thing about my next book when I show the same snake with that name. Maybe I should take the opportunity she did not have. That of citing the history of the improper or unethical renaming. Perhaps when the two largest English corn snake books show the real granite corn, the contradiction between printed and virtual media will be a reminder that we must be more responsible in such matters.

Don

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Does all this mean that because Rich discovered Morph Z, that everyone is required then to call them "Ashy"? :shrugs: Not everyone likes the name (same goes for Cinder).

I think at this point, the Granite argument is pointless. It's a little late now, as thousands of Anery Diffused are in existence and are being called Granite while this little known mutation only a handful exist.

 

[Drizzt80]

Does all this mean that because Rich discovered Morph Z, that everyone is required then to call them "Ashy"? :shrugs: Not everyone likes the name (same goes for Cinder).

That would be a discussion that Carol and Rich need to engage in as this is one snake with two names. Not two snakes with one name. :shrugs:

I think at this point, the Granite argument is pointless. It's a little late now, as thousands of Anery Diffused are in existence and are being called Granite while this little known mutation only a handful exist.

That would be the easy way to solve the problem. OR we could do our best to honor what we know is "right" and respect the originator of the granite name for his morph. Sure, some may not have known that the "other" Granite even existed, but what do you do after you are made aware??

After all, since names can be accepted by the masses in one direction, they can just as easily be renamed if the masses choose. :grin01: We already have several morphs which have to be re-explained, what's one more on the list?!?! :eek1:

D80

 

[Joejr14]

Sure, some may not have known that the "other" Granite even existed, but what do you do after you are made aware??

D80

I don't think you do anything. How many anery bloods have been sold as 'granites' over the past few years? Do you really expect to change everyone's opinion on what that morph should be called? There is no way in the world everyone is going to stop calling anery bloods 'granites'.

If most people out there recognize 'granite' as an anery bloodred, how in the heck do you go about changing it? I just don't think it's possible, and I also don't really agree with this 'name stealing' bit. I think that's a bit excessive.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

That would be a discussion that Carol and Rich need to engage in as this is one snake with two names. Not two snakes with one name.

Yes, but part of the argument being made is that so and so discovered and named the morph, so we should stick to it. Well, wouldn't that then apply to Z's as well? Along with every other new mutation that is going to pop up. Take the Keys Stripe I have, I've been jokingly calling them Fuglys. Should I expect it to stick? :shrugs:

 

[Menhir]

To me, some arguments do not fit this situation. It's not the point that everyone has to agree using the name a breeder uses. I don't understand all these Buccaneer, Ashy, Cinder comparisons. If you don't like em, don't use em.

I think it would be wrong to now label another totally unrelated morph Ashy, just because not many people know that label for AneryC/Z/Cinder yet.
Moreover, Granite is used as a synonym for a morph combo that in my opinion is by far subordinate to the name for single genetic trait.

 

[Drizzt80]

I don't think you do anything.

I had more to say, and paraphrase, and dissect, but it really comes down to: "Is that the "right" thing to do?"

D80

 

[dionythicus]

Obviously I have missed much of the debate about who had what and when, I said as much in my earlier post. I'm seeing this from a different angle than most, maybe.

Perhaps it should come down to who holds the legal trademark on a name. If its so important to have your name attached to something new and you want the credit for naming it, and I'll admit that it is important to some people, then you should look into the legal aspect of it. If you want your new purple and green morph called Alien corns, I suggest you get a registered trademark so you can protect it. Otherwise, there can't be any legal protection against someone else using it. It may not make the public like it or use it, but you can at least stop anyone else from taking it for their red and green corns, or pink and black corns, or calling purple and green corns "Mars" corns or "UFO" corns. It wouldn't matter what the public says, you would have sole right to that name and that morph.

Look at Abbott's Okeetees. He wasn't the one who coined the name, but it stuck. Since his name is on them, does he have any legal right to compensation every time its used? No. But if he pursued a trademark, he could legally stop anyone from selling them with his name on them without his permission. Is that what we want? I hope not.

I would like to this conflict with the name Granite be resolved peacefully but plainly there will be hard feelings if we continue to use the term in reference to diffused anery. I'm sorry about that, I would like to see the right people get credit for this. I don't know if that will happen.

 

[Hawkin']

To me, some arguments do not fit this situation. It's not the point that everyone has to agree using the name a breeder uses. I don't understand all these Buccaneer, Ashy, Cinder comparisons. If you don't like em, don't use em.

I think it would be wrong to now label another totally unrelated morph Ashy, just because not many people know that label for AneryC/Z/Cinder yet.
Moreover, Granite is used as a synonym for a morph combo that in my opinion is by far subordinate to the name for single genetic trait.

I'm with you on this.Nobody was using the names Buccaneer,Ashy,Cinder,etc.but he was already using granite and it was stolen from him. :shrugs:I'm not a breeder,so my opion doesn't count for much,but I'll be calling the originals Granites. I'll stick with my Okeetees,they're better looking than all these crazy morphs anyway :nyah:

 

[jazzgeek]

Look at Abbott's Okeetees. He wasn't the one who coined the name, but it stuck. Since his name is on them, does he have any legal right to compensation every time its used? No. But if he pursued a trademark, he could legally stop anyone from selling them with his name on them without his permission. Is that what we want? I hope not.

If this were to happen, Bob Mailloux of Sandfire Dragon Ranch would become the reptilian Bill Gates.

regards,
jazz

 

[Roy Munson]

Ok, as Don and Michael/Menhir have clarified, the issue is the STEALING of an established morph name. I get it. What I don't understand is where have all of these people who are passionate about the Keys-morph "granites" been while the name was being stolen and established for the anery-blood morph? As I already stated, this thread is the first I've heard about the Keys-morph granites. I'm not the most knowledgable person in the corn community, but I've kept my eyes and ears open and I've never read or heard a thing except for the brief summary in Kathy's book. Are there any other secrets out there that will be sprung on us at some point down the road? Are pearl corns snopals, or are they leucy corn hybrids? Did the originator of sunglows intend for the name to be used for bright, non-white amels, or is homo hypoA a requirement for use of the name? If someone orders a granite from me for their blood project without seeing a pic, and I send them a Keys-morph granite, am I guilty of misrepresentation?

And here's another point. I think that if it's so darned important to the person who first applies a name that the name be used correctly, that person needs to do some of the work to establish the name for the morph they have in mind. If someone posts a "Granite Wanted" thread in the classified section, why should I spend my time clarifying the situation while the originator of the morph and a couple of his original customers either refuse to discuss it or ignore that there's a discussion altogether? I dunno. If I leave $500 in my front doorway, leave the door open, and then sequester myself in a room on the other side of the house, who do I blame when the money is stolen? It doesn't mean that the thief had a right to steal the money, but should I start yelling at my neighbors for not keeping a closer eye on things while I was occupied elsewhere? :shrugs: I realize that this isn't a perfect analogy, but I think it makes my point anyway.

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

because, Dean, by reading these posts it is obvious no one here really gives a damn or thinks there is anything wrong with stealing the name.
Why would they come here and argue when no one is really willing to listen or acknowledge the truth. The name was in use. The name was knowingly stolen.
It's simply wrong. I just can't fathom how hard that is for some of you to comprehend.
So, you think it is the originators fault because they didn't come here and tell the people on this damn forum about the granites. Hell, they took it to the '99 Daytona expo.
How public do they have to make it?

I remember an argument a while back, on this forum, saying that the first use of a name in print is the official name. As a matter of fact I think it was Chuck who said it.
Well, the first use of the granite name, in print, was in Kathy's book.
Hmmm, I guess that won't count either, will it?
Even though Kathy is one of the top breeders in the country/world. As is Don.
I don't know how you people can read what he has written and just ignore it and write it off as pointless.
Where the hell would our hobby be without Kathy, Don and Rich?
All of a sudden their word means squat? Don and Rich brought the information forward. Once it was known an alternative name should have been dicussed.

Go back and read what Don and Menhir have written and think about it.
They are making perfect sense.

It really makes me wonder what's wrong with people today.
Actually it worries me more then perplexes me.

I just don't get it.
And to tell you the truth I hope I never do.
Once I begin to understand how stealing can be acceptable I will soon become a theif.

 

[tom e]

I thought it was said here in this thread, that at the time the granite was being named that someone mentioned it was already in use?
Has anybody found that?
That would be the difference between stealing the name and not.. Though I do understand that there is no one person naming the second granite, so it's not like 'someone' is to blame.

I personally will only refer to the 'keys' morph as being granite.. Not that I'm expecting others to follow suit, that's just what I think is fair.

 

[cka]

Hmmm....

because, Dean, by reading these posts it is obvious no one here really gives a damn or thinks there is anything wrong with stealing the name.

I know you are not speaking for EVERYONE, are you?

Why would they come here and argue when no one is really willing to listen or acknowledge the truth. The name was in use. The name was knowingly stolen.

Why not? Not to argue, just to clarify, and not just here at this site. I don't see where the name "Granite" was knowingly stolen; I think folks thought it was a cool, descriptive name for an anerythristic diffuse, and no one knew about the Keys granites; well at least the 99.99% of us who aren't "in the know" :shrugs:

It's simply wrong. I just can't fathom how hard that is for some of you to comprehend.

Head...meet wall

So, you think it is the originators fault because they didn't come here and tell the people on this damn forum about the granites. Hell, they took it to the '99 Daytona expo. How public do they have to make it?

Apparently a little more public than one show in '99

I remember an argument a while back, on this forum, saying that the first use of a name in print is the official name. As a matter of fact I think it was Chuck who said it.
Well, the first use of the granite name, in print, was in Kathy's book.
Hmmm, I guess that won't count either, will it?
Even though Kathy is one of the top breeders in the country/world. As is Don.
I don't know how you people can read what he has written and just ignore it and write it off as pointless.
Where the hell would our hobby be without Kathy, Don and Rich?
All of a sudden their word means squat? Don and Rich brought the information forward. Once it was known an alternative name should have been dicussed.

Go back and read what Don and Menhir have written and think about it.
They are making perfect sense.

It really makes me wonder what's wrong with people today.
Actually it worries more then perplexes me.

I just don't get it.
And to tell you the truth I hope I never do.
Once I begin to understand how stealing can be acceptable I will soon become a theif.

I don't know, it's really just a name. Where's the harm in calling one a Granite Keys corn and the other a "Granite" morph corn? Also I'm sure folks would be willing to respect his "right" to "own" the name if they knew more about them, and then we can all go on squabbling over another name for an anerythristic diffuse corn. I like "speckled Lead" myself.

Really I just like anery blood

it sjut naems fro sankes, folks

 

[Roy Munson]

because, Dean, by reading these posts it is obvious no one here really gives a damn or thinks there is anything wrong with stealing the name.

I hope that this hasn't been obvious from my posts. I never stole a GD thing. I'm the guy who gets slipped the counterfeit $20 and gets yelled at for trying to use it at the gas station when I had no idea. I don't plan on using the name for anery-bloods anymore. And considering the extremely limited availability and insane pricing of these animals despite their long history, I probably won't be using the name "granite" much at all anyway.

Why would they come here and argue when no one is really willing to listen or acknowledge the truth. The name was in use. The name was knowingly stolen.

Who stole the name? I'm not saying that it wasn't stolen, but who stole it? Was there any resistance to this theivery? I haven't seen the evidence of it.

It's simply wrong. I just can't fathom how hard that is for some of you to comprehend.

Of course it's wrong! Who doesn't understand it?

So, you think it is the originators fault because they didn't come here and tell the people on this damn forum about the granites. Hell, they took it to the '99 Daytona expo.
How public do they have to make it?

I never said that it was the originator's fault. I've known about it since September of 2007. If others have known since '99, including the originator, then where can I find examples of those in the know defending the name against the theives who stole it? I guess there was some thread here. Maybe it was before my time, or maybe I missed it. I've posted granite photo threads numerous times and NO ONE has ever challenged my use of the name-- not you, not Don, not Menhir (who actually posted in at least one of my granite threads).

I remember an argument a while back, on this forum, saying that the first use of a name in print is the official name. As a matter of fact I think it was Chuck who said it.
Well, the first use of the granite name, in print, was in Kathy's book.
Hmmm, I guess that won't count either, will it?
Even though Kathy is one of the top breeders in the country/world. As is Don.
I don't know how you people can read what he has written and just ignore it and write it off as pointless.
Where the hell would our hobby be without Kathy, Don and Rich?
All of a sudden their word means squat? Don and Rich brought the information forward. Once it was known an alternative name should have been dicussed.

I must have missed Chuck's coronation as King of Corns. Either that, or he doesn't really have the authority to proclaim what is official in this hobby. Of course Kathy, Don, Rich, AND Chuck's opinions matter. Who is questioning their value to the hobby or writing off their opinions? But none of them has the authority to dictate this policy. If I were Emperor of the Universe, I would appoint these four and Connie as Grand Commissioners of All Things Corn. But I'm not. I'm going to personally heed their opinions, but I can't expect the hobbyists who have heard of them, and the vast numbers who have not, to follow suit.

Go back and read what Don and Menhir have written and think about it.
They are making perfect sense.

They sure are. And I could go on all day about the requirements for a perfect society, and I might make perfect sense. It doesn't change the real world one bit.

It really makes me wonder what's wrong with people today.
Actually it worries more then perplexes me.

I just don't get it.
And to tell you the truth I hope I never do.
Once I begin to understand how stealing can be acceptable I will soon become a theif.

There are bigger problems in the world than corn snake naming conventions, so this thing is kind of a yawn for me. Maybe I just lack your moral compass. Have the originator or his customers been hurt? These snakes are selling for $1800 a pair! The only people who will buy them are people who know the difference between them and anery-bloods anyway. Get rid of every trade name tomorrow, and just give me the genotypes, I don't care. I think granite is a bad descriptor for either claimant to the name anyway.

 

[SODERBERGD]

Resistance is futile . . .

That quote sure applies here. Rich Z and Don S informed this forum back then that the name was already taken and that we had seen and knew people that had purchased key's granite corns. They told me in so many words that since they had never heard of them, they didn't exist. When the leaders of these forums make up their minds and convince their followers to do something, IT IS DONE. Some of us don't have all day to fight these battles Online and when we finally get weary of protesting, the will of the others is accomplished. I'm inviting you to dig into the archives of this forum and you'll see that there was ample warning and proof that the name was already taken. As Jimmy said, why would anyone fight it after the gavel swung on this forum? Resistance is futile! The most talented and persistant forum lobbyists always prevail.

I do not see the gray area here, unless it's the fact that some of you just can't imagine that someone would use this name, knowing it was already assigned to a different morph. If that is the case, know that the original GRANITE corns were in existence AND COMMERCE before the name change. If you say this is not stealing, I sure don't want to buy any snakes from you. The originator and namer of those corns didn't own a computer or even a telephone. He lived on one of the keys and just loved his snakes. He was in Central America when all this happened and had no way of defending his granite corns. Rich and I stepped in and later that original granite was pictorially featured in Kathy's book. Did you think Don, Rich and Kathy were all mistaken or that we had a motive to lie? So, if you are not a member of this forum, you have no right to name a morph. Heck, I was the first to ever have anery bloods on a web site and I didn't find out about the first name change for six months. Be warned. If you're not watching your purse, nobody's even going to warn you someone's walking away with it.

I think the real issue here is that back when this happened (and perhaps even now), people on some of these forums thought (and apparently still think) corns were invented Online. It appears that they believe all corn snake decisions are made here. Well sadly, it appears that they are correct. THEY have self-appointed themselves the official governors for all decisions about corns. They think that if someone doesn't read these forums, they do not exist. When they can knowingly steal the name of a corn and reassign it to a different morph just because they wanted to and because there was inferior protest, I guess forums like this really DO control this hobby. I wish they could just facilitate the hobby and help everyone enjoy having corns. Me, I want to deal with people I think are honest and have integrity. I see some of that integrity here, but it appears that the bully mentality is winning out over those whose parents taught them right from wrong.

Giving folks the benefit of doubting that Rich and Don actually did warn them not to make this change, and now knowing that we definitely DID warn them, if you still think reassigning that name to the anery blood was ethical, it simply reinforces why I stopped participating in discussions on this forum. If however, you feel that it was wrong to do that, but believe as I do that we have a REAL mess on our hands, let's roll up our sleeves and come up with a solution. The resolution of this mess may well be the original snake needing a new name, but we should be open-minded about it instead of defending bad decisions. We all make mistakes. It's how we deal with those mistakes that reveals our character. The original GRANITE may not win out in this mess, but I'd like to think that instead of defending the theft of the name OR shrugging it off because we think it's too late to fix it, we presented potentially viable solutions. I think that is what this forum was created to accomplish.

 

[jaxom1957]

It's my fervent hope that all who are concerned about the naming "conventions" of combination morphs are using the proper term "facial tissue" when blowing their nose into something that is paper-based and NOT a Kleenex®.

No, I call it "toilet paper".

 

[jaxom1957]

I thought it was said here in this thread, that at the time the granite was being named that someone mentioned it was already in use? Has anybody found that?

I found this post from Joe Pierce, dating to November of 2004, in which he points out that the name was already in use for a variety of keys corns, so the problem was pointed out at least that long ago.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15732

 

[toyah]

As I understand it, at the time when a poll was held to name AneryA, the names given (apart from I think Raider) were names that already been heard and used outside of this forum, in the "real world". Whatever the result of the poll here, the naming of granite happened to a large degree outside of the forum ...

I don't think there's an easy solution, apart from maybe using Keys granite for the original granite. It's probably too late to stop people using the name of granite for anery blood. Even if people tried, as pointed out this forum is not the be-all and end-all of corn snakes, so how would it be done?

I must say, the granite advertised here and pictured in Kathy's book is lovely, as most of the Keys corns seem to be. I wish they were more available, anyone want to sell me some babies next season?

 

[El Jefe]

It is my observation from seeing about 12 of these key corns that we're dealing with the striped pattern here; specifically one that has the vanishing effect.

So...these then just a plain keys corn with the the stripe mutation? Is this name describing a 'gene' or a 'phase'?

I.e. If you breed one of these "Granite" Corns to a Striped cornsnake do you get Stripes and Vanishing Stripes? Furthermore, to add a twist to this whole name game, by accomplishing the above breeding do you get stripes het "Granite"? Or do you just get stripes?

:shrugs: