Purist Breeders

[starsevol]

I guess I don't see the big picture. No one is breeding cornsnakes to release back into the wild. If it's a cool looking snake, and people like it, then why get upset about it? I just don't get it :shrugs:

Because there SHOULD be more to something than how it looks. If the label says it is a cornsnake, then it NEEDS to be a cornsnake!

 

[DMong]

Hybridizers don't ruin anything as they don't force you not to know the lineage of the snakes you work with. When you accept snakes into your breeding pool with unknown lineage then you are agreeing to work with possible hybrids or suspect snakes. As a breeder, no one is tying your hands forcing you not to ask for a lineage of the snakes your working with. You have to take responsibility for the snakes you choose to work with and if you choose to work with suspect or otherwise unknown variables that will always be your choice. The hybridizer doesn't make these choices for you.

If you go to buy a diamond you have every right to ask for proof that it is a diamond and not a cubic zirconium. If you don't ask for proof. That is on you just as it is with the breeder who doesn't know the lineage of his corn snakes. You can try to place the blame on the hybridizer, but in the end a hybridizer is a hybridizer and a purist is a purist. The two are separate from each other and each serves their own goals. Don't expect a hybridizer to do your job of keeping track of the purity of the corn snakes in your breeding pool, but instead, take responsibility for the corn snakes lineages that you choose to work with.

So until the day that all the casual pet and breeder hobbyists there are out there become taxonomic/classification and locale-specific experts, it is just fine with you and others that they get shafted by buying and breeding more mutts until they can eventually figure it out for themselves many years later (if ever)...right??.


..................PLEEEEASE!!


But one thing IS certain though,.........everybody better start becoming an expert if they want a real type of snake today, and not a piece of cut glass that seems pretty and shiny enough. Problem being, that won't happen either, and the entire process keeps being repeating........ on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on....................................


~Doug

 

[starsevol]

I couldn't have said it ANY better!........except they can never be taken back and destroyed. They will be doing the destroying to the general hobby forever. It's just too bad there were and are so many that contributed to it.

As mentioned before, all anyone can do is carry on and think about what they do that will affect other things later. Again, I am not talking only cornsnakes here AT ALL!


~Doug

I have to say, I would have a hard time killing them.....but humane spay and neuter would be great. Just like RESPONSIBLE people do with mutt dogs and cats.

 

[starsevol]

So until the day that all the casual pet and breeder hobbyists there are out there become taxonomic/classification and locale-specific experts, it is just fine with you and others that they get shafted by buying and breeding more mutts until they can eventually figure it out for themselves many years later (if ever)...right??.


..................PLEEEEASE!!


But one thing IS certain though,.........everybody better start becoming an expert if they want a real type of snake today, and not a piece of cut glass that seems pretty and shiny enough. Problem being, that won't happen either, and the entire process keeps being repeating........ on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on....................................


~Doug

Right!! Exactly!! While I can see his point that a passionate purist needs to know what they are buying and breeding, there are a ton of casual people out there who just don't know who don't mean to destroy the hobby, but do anyway. And he seems to think that the only responsibility seems to lie with the purist, and not the hybridizers who are dumping their genetic waste at exponential levels every single year!!

 

[AliCat37]

Because there SHOULD be more to something than how it looks. If the label says it is a cornsnake, then it NEEDS to be a cornsnake!

It should be, but there is no way to prove that even a wild caught animal is pure. There's so many critters that get let go or lost, who knows what sorts of genes were introduced into wild generations. It's impossible to trace where all these morphs have come from, so I still stick to my original position.. If you're concerned on keeping "pure" cornsnakes, then only buy and trade with others who have lines that they can prove are "pure". Don't go off the beaten path and buy any morphs, because they could all, honestly, be questionable. In my opinion, if it looks like a corn snake, behaves like a corn snake (both with physical characteristics and personality) then it's good enough for me. Like the tequila sunrises, they are absolutely stunning. Should they be banished from the hobby just because no one 100% can point to their origin? I don't think so. They're cool looking snakes, and I like them! I also like my ultramel, and my tessera, and all my other snakes.

 

[starsevol]

It should be, but there is no way to prove that even a wild caught animal is pure. There's so many critters that get let go or lost, who knows what sorts of genes were introduced into wild generations. It's impossible to trace where all these morphs have come from, so I still stick to my original position.. If you're concerned on keeping "pure" cornsnakes, then only buy and trade with others who have lines that they can prove are "pure". Don't go off the beaten path and buy any morphs, because they could all, honestly, be questionable. In my opinion, if it looks like a corn snake, behaves like a corn snake (both with physical characteristics and personality) then it's good enough for me. Like the tequila sunrises, they are absolutely stunning. Should they be banished from the hobby just because no one 100% can point to their origin? I don't think so. They're cool looking snakes, and I like them! I also like my ultramel, and my tessera, and all my other snakes.

Wild caught, NATURAL intergrades (note the word natural), are one thing.
Human created frankensnakes are totally something else.

 

[airenlow]

In my opinion, if it looks like a corn snake, behaves like a corn snake (both with physical characteristics and personality) then it's good enough for me.

And 2/3 of participants in the last thread/poll disagreed with you...

 

[DMong]

Because there SHOULD be more to something than how it looks. If the label says it is a cornsnake, then it NEEDS to be a cornsnake!

I agree,........it is just THAT simple!


Too many damn people trying to make new shiny Corvettes out of spare junkyard Pinto, Maverick, VW, Buick, and other parts, then selling them as new cutting-edge prototype technology.

~Doug

 

[DragonsDenSerpents]

Let me preface this with: I appreciate hybrids for what they are - hybrids. I do not appreciate hybrids that are labeled incorrectly. That being said, I don't feel it is my responsibility to clarify with every breeder I go through "hey, are these guys hybrid?" If I'm looking at what is labeled an anery corn, I don't expect it to have, say black rat blood in it. Further example would be my partner and I are on the waiting list for a Doberman puppy from a breeder. We did not ask "hey, did you breed golden retriever or greyhound into these dogs at any point?" We shouldn't have to, because it is the BREEDER'S responsibility to advertise their animals correctly. Sorry, Carpe, but your "you should ask for proof before you buy" doesn't fly with me.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

It should be, but there is no way to prove that even a wild caught animal is pure. There's so many critters that get let go or lost, who knows what sorts of genes were introduced into wild generations. It's impossible to trace where all these morphs have come from, so I still stick to my original position.. If you're concerned on keeping "pure" cornsnakes, then only buy and trade with others who have lines that they can prove are "pure". Don't go off the beaten path and buy any morphs, because they could all, honestly, be questionable. In my opinion, if it looks like a corn snake, behaves like a corn snake (both with physical characteristics and personality) then it's good enough for me. Like the tequila sunrises, they are absolutely stunning. Should they be banished from the hobby just because no one 100% can point to their origin? I don't think so. They're cool looking snakes, and I like them! I also like my ultramel, and my tessera, and all my other snakes.

I agree with you. If you want a cool looking corn snake and are not hung up on proving purity more power to you.

As for all breeders needing to be experts in determining purity... this does not need to happen at all. If a breeder is unconcerned with purity then that is their choice to not be concerned with it.

The burden of proving a corn snake is pure is on the purist who would like to select pure corn snakes for their breeders or collection. It is presumably important enough to purists presumably to ask for lineages and understand where their lines originated otherwise how can they call themselves a purist? There are more than enough corn snakes for hybridizers to breed hybrids, breeders to breed as they choose, and for die hard purists to breed with each other as well.

There are enough corn snakes to fill those niches in the hobby. Especially so if the purists keep track of pure snakes in their collections and only allow good quality stock that can be proven pure all the way back to the wild to get out or into their collections. If a purist chooses to buy a corn snake from a local pet store with no lineage he is either not a purist or he is taking a very large gamble as who knows if that corn was bred with a pueblan 7 generations ago? We just can't say the lineage of such unknown corn snakes with any certainty.

On another note, Dmong made a good point. Many may lack the expertise to tell if a corn snake had a milk ancestor 25 generations ago.

Knowing a corn snakes lineage however all the way back to the wild might help with keeping your corn snakes lineage pure though. Doing dna testing of breeders to determine parentage beyond a shadow of a doubt would allow even the novice to breed pure corn snakes with guaranteed parentage and a proven pedigree so no knowledge would be required of even the novice to breed pure corns with assuredness so long as these records and standards were kept in place. Yes, I revisited that argument as it is a valid statement and it is easy enough to do. The fact is that even something as simple as keeping records back to the wild or doing paternity testing is too much for many purists letting me know that the desire may be there, but it is not strong enough to put any meaningful safeguards in place in my opinion. Now, if we say, all grandfathered in corns are pure even though they are of suspect heritage as we don't know all the corns or other potential species that may have gone into making them... this is fine as well. Thats what makes the registry so nice... but we can't fool ourselves into thinking that these corns are pure and once one impure snake moves into the gene pool and is not eradicated it continues to move its way through others corn snake collections. Again, this lets me know that the desire to truly have pure corn snakes is not all that great as the easiest solution is to remove all snakes of unknown origin and only breed wild caught and start over sometimes. You have to weigh the pros and cons of doing and come to grips with the fact that you may in fact actually be okay with having a little hybrid in your gene pool as its much better than losing the diversity that you have in your morph lines....

 

[DMong]

Wild caught, NATURAL intergrades (note the word natural), are one thing.
Human created frankensnakes are totally something else.

See, the other reply is really the entire problem. "Looking cool" is all that seems to matter to far too many.

I hope I am in the mall when the cubic zirconia ring is bought as a genuine diamond, then the store clerk says........."what's your beef anyway??, you got the cool "look" you wanted, right?.....HAHAAA!!! :rofl:


~Doug

 

[airenlow]

...Doing dna testing of breeders...

Back on the ignore list! I really tried this time. :dunce:

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Let me preface this with: I appreciate hybrids for what they are - hybrids. I do not appreciate hybrids that are labeled incorrectly. That being said, I don't feel it is my responsibility to clarify with every breeder I go through "hey, are these guys hybrid?" If I'm looking at what is labeled an anery corn, I don't expect it to have, say black rat blood in it. Further example would be my partner and I are on the waiting list for a Doberman puppy from a breeder. We did not ask "hey, did you breed golden retriever or greyhound into these dogs at any point?" We shouldn't have to, because it is the BREEDER'S responsibility to advertise their animals correctly. Sorry, Carpe, but your "you should ask for proof before you buy" doesn't fly with me.

I would agree 100% with you if it were not for the fact that pedigree dogs do occassionally have other dogs bred into them and are bred back to pure standards by their owners. The same is done with cattle. After so many generations of back breeding they are considered pure again.

As a breeder you are responsible for knowing the lineage of your breed the same as a dog breeder keeps track of his lineage. You have a responsibility to set your own standards and meet those standards. Those that have those same standards or exceed your standards should be those you choose to work with. If you choose a substandard breeder when your expectations are much higher that is on you... I do place that blame on the breeder who lowered their standards and expected to get more from a pure bred animal they found at the pound. Sure, it may look pure... but what is its true make up?

 

[starsevol]

Back on the ignore list! I really tried this time. :dunce:

Yes, I know!! The dna test, paternaty test, is a JOKE!!!!!

Can't be done, is not accurate, and is utterly worthless.

Yes, the hybridizer is to blame. No doubt about it.

 

[DMong]

Back on the ignore list! I really tried this time. :dunce:

Yeah, I knew this was the goal from the very start when I saw the title and who posted it......to see if he could get himself busy at the keyboard regarding hybrids again (as always). :shrugs:


~Doug

 

[airenlow]

I did too, but that "hope and change" idea worked for somebody else recently. I don't like him either...

 

[starsevol]

I would agree 100% with you if it were not for the fact that pedigree dogs do occassionally have other dogs bred into them and are bred back to pure standards by their owners. The same is done with cattle. After so many generations of back breeding they are considered pure again.

As a breeder you are responsible for knowing the lineage of your breed the same as a dog breeder keeps track of his lineage. You have a responsibility to set your own standards and meet those standards. Those that have those same standards or exceed your standards should be those you choose to work with. If you choose a substandard breeder when your expectations are much higher that is on you... I do place that blame on the breeder who lowered their standards and expected to get more from a pure bred animal they found at the pound. Sure, it may look pure... but what is its true make up?

That first paragraph is completely and totally false. Pedigree dogs are NEVER bred to make mutts with other breeds.
I don't think you are as smart as you think you are.....

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

That first paragraph is completely and totally false. Pedigree dogs are NEVER bred to make mutts with other breeds.
I don't think you are as smart as you think you are.....

Alaskan Klee Kai ring a bell Starsevol?

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

As for your diamond analogy and a hybridizer trying to sell you a hybrid as a pure specimen. I don't think hybridizers are trying to sell you hybrids as pure snakes. I think breeders are trying to sell hybrids to you as pure snakes. So, its a faulty analogy. I think this happens because breeders don't know or question the lineage of their snakes. If it looks like a corn then its a corn. If thats your standard role with it and I applaud it.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

If an animal has a closed registry, this means no additional animals are allowed to be introduced into it. If the breed has an open registry, this means new blood is allowed to be entered into it. Standards still apply however.