questions about morphs

[Rich Z]

No, Vinny, you just don't get it.

I know of people who have what they call locality Gray Banded Kings and they are VERY specific about that locality. Snakes that are caught only along a particular road (Juno Road) or even at specific road intersections, or ONLY from a particular sharply defined geological feature bear those locality names. Other people are not as specific, and in those cases, I believe they are not so much interested in the locality as they are with the names applied to those animals.

That, Vinny, is where you fall down. If you had said that YOUR Okeetee corns are only considered as such if they only came from EXACTLY on the grounds of the Okeetee Hunt Club (either present or past, but DOCUMENTED), or even more to the point from EXACTLY that 10 square miles (which is the ONLY in print reference I have heard of Carl Kauffeld using in reference to these "Okeetee Corns", then I would have a problem with someone being that much of a stickler for such a locality detail. I could respect that. But you would have to be PRECISE! A corn snake ONLY found in your sharply defined locality would qualify. Not one foot outside of that area. Not extending that range for convenience sake when you happen to catch an animal outside of your range that looks so damned nice that you give in to the dark side and extend your range to encompass that animal within your locality definition.

But no, you state that you consider any corn snake caught within 1/4 mile of the Jasper County line as being within your definition of a *true* Okeetee Corn Snake. Sorry, but that just is not a reasonable argument to support. Your locality definition is purely arbitrary and without any logic at all being utilized in choosing why you decided on those boundaries. And yet you belittle someone else's animals that are the result of breeding their "Okeetee Corns" with something else as being "mutts", and yet feel that YOUR "Okeetee Corns" found 1/4 mile from the Jasper County border, and NOT actually within the Okeetee Hunt Club boundaries (and especially NOT in that 10 square miles delineated by Carl Kauffeld) who quite likely are the results of breedings of corn snakes that could have come from miles further away from this arbitrary boundary, do not deserve that label of "mutt" even though for all intents and purposes they are the same.

I think your definition of what constitutes a "mutt" Okeetee Corn and a "true" Okeetee Corn needs an analogy for you to consider.

I heard this as a joke a long while ago. A woman is sitting in the lounge area of a top rated hotel. While sitting there, she is approached by a gentleman who buys her a drink and they sit and chat for a while, enjoying each other's company. After a few more drinks, the gentleman offers her one million dollars if she will sleep with him. At first she is offended, but on second thought, that is a LOT of money! So she accepts. They go up to his room and consumate the physical part of this deal. Afterwards, the gentleman hands her $100. She, of course is indignant and exclaims "Sir! What kind of girl do you think I am!" He says, "Madam, we already know what kind of girl you are. We are only negotiating on the price."

I'll leave it to you to figure out what that analogy means........

 

[Menhir]

:-offtopic

B- Roger Ebert has a uterus.

I take B - what do I win? A true locality Vineetee? :sidestep:

 

[Vinman]

quote Carl never called ANY snakes okeetee Vinny, that is something that was applied to the LOOK of "the prettiest" snakes in the 10 sq. mile area. YOU are good at twisting words. 10 sq. miles WITHIN the okeetee land does not mean the WHOLE okeetee land. It means only that 10 sq. miles. Carl, nor Rich, have ever stated the the okeetee is only 10 sq. miles. Carl said that these corns that he noticed had a certain look within a certain 10 sq. miles. AGAIN I say again: The term okeetee was applied to the look of the snake that Carl was referring to, and then the locality people came in and said that the name was applied to the snakes because of the locality. Therefore, these "mutts", the term you are trying to degrade everyone's okeetee to, are not truly mutts, but are legitimate okeetees, because of the FIRST use of the word "okeetee", something you are hell-bent on. The locality of the okeetee is only special if and only if you know before hand what is out there and go hunting for it. That is what makes your locality corns legitimate locality okeetees, but it still does not take away from the term okeetee as being the LOOK of the corn. Carl did not know that this look was at the okeetee hunt club BEFORE he went there, therefore, he can not have been writing about how special the corns were because of where they came from. The locality was something later applied by people who already knew ;

Now EGG you are wrong read riches post yes he is trying to say that carl said that the okeetee is 10 sq. miles . I 'm glad that you have common sense to realise what carl was said when he ment 10 sq. miles

gEGG look this is not ment in a harsh way . Yo are only 18 how do you know what happend befor you were born ,this whole okeetee thing started in NYC. I got into okeetees in 1983 and did alot of reserch into the subject. carl went down for many years befor he wrote the books that mention the okeetee the whole okeetee thing was about the rich colored corns. the whole black ring thing was a added extra . Every body would talk about the color and then they mention that they look real nice when they have thick black rings , not everybody agreed. Now I know people that hunted with carl.The fact that okeetees are known for there rich ground color , not bright colors . The animal that you desire is not what carl described. Why dont you call me up and I can give you more detials since This has been my main love is okeetee corns. See it is not that the localty people came latter . they were there first. Okeetee is a real place . why do people go to jasper co. to catch okeetees if that is not where okeetees come from. Look you have come into this hobby in a short time. I'm sure you have heard a lot of myths.Why dont you call me up on the phone and we can have a nice chat .There is so much that I haven't said ,their is so much that I know but it is too much to right. Remember I been into it a lot longer that you and this whole okeetee started he in NY. that is where carl is from. so dont you think that since that I'm in contact with them that I would know the hole story. Remember I watch this whole thing grow. DO you know that every year that there are a bunch of people that go down to okeetee every year that used to hunt with carl k. and carl a. rob z.from the statin island zoo. this is where it all began. thease are the people that made the okeetee famous from the start.

 

[Vinman]

rich my female was caugh on hapazzard rd. right in the hart of the okeetee not far from the club house . one male that I have comes 6 ft from the okeetee it is the road tbhat runs along the west boader of the okeetee the other side of the road is a few hundred feet of land and then the savana river
my other male comes fron old charlston rd on one side of the street used to be okeetee many years ago . they still have some old sines. about a few hundred feet behind where I caught the snake is okeetee all the places that I collected my corns were hunted by carl k.

 

[E. g. guttata]

Now EGG you are wrong read riches post yes he is trying to say that carl said that the okeetee is 10 sq. miles . I 'm glad that you have common sense to realise what carl was said when he ment 10 sq. miles

gEGG look this is not ment in a harsh way . Yo are only 18 how do you know what happend befor you were born ,this whole okeetee thing started in NYC. I got into okeetees in 1983 and did alot of reserch into the subject. carl went down for many years befor he wrote the books that mention the okeetee the whole okeetee thing was about the rich colored corns. the whole blach ring thing was a added extra . Every body would talk about the color and then they mention that they look real nice when they have thick black rings , not everybody agreed. Now I know people that hunted with carl.The fact that okeetees are known for there rich ground color , not bright colors . The animal that you desire is not what carl described. Why dont you call me up and I can give you more detials since This has been my main love is okeetee corns. See it is not that the localty people came latter . they were there first. Okeetee is a real place . why do people go to jasper co. to catch okeetees if that is not where okeetees come from. Look you have come into this hobby in a short time. I'm sure you have heard a lot of myths.Why dont you call me up on the phone and we can have a nice chat .There is so much that I haven't said ,their is so much that I know but it is too much to right. Remember I been into it a lot longer that you and this whole okeetee started he in NY. that is where carl is from. so dont you think that since that I'm in contact with them that I would know the hole story. Remember I watch this whole thing grow. DO you know that every year that there are a bunch of people that go down to okeetee every year that used to hunt with carl k. and carl a. rob z.from the statin island zoo. this is where it all began. thease are the people that made the okeetee famous from the start.

AGAIN: Rich never claimed that the okeetee was only 10 sq. miles, he's only TALKING about the 10 sq. miles that carl "made famous". The fact that I am 18 has no bearring on my knowledge and how I can debate this topic. The fact that it started in NY has no bearring on my knowledge and how I can debate this topic. The fact that people go to the okeetee to hunt has no bearring on my knowledge and how I can debate this topic. The fact that the okeetee is a real place has no bearring on my knowledge and how I can debate this topic. The fact that I have only had corns for 7 years versus your 22 has no bearring on my knowledge and how I can debate this topic. You cannot simply say that okeetee is a locality snake without having a solid founding idea and definition on what you mean by "locality". You currently lack that idea. You do not have a concrete definition of the locality border, nor is it accurate with any of your posts describing the okeetee land (then and now) and you decide to move your border when convienent for you to inclde snakes in the same gene pool. I, as per my side of this debate, have logically disproven your border by using logic, and acnowledging the fact that the border you have drawn is not only lacking stability, but also can be crossed both ways no matter where you put it. You have not argued to stabalize that border at all, instead, you attack others on a personal level and attack others because of their "mutt" snakes. I have also mathematically proven that your "gene pool" argument for moving the border is an invalid argument in describing the locality of the okeetee snakes range. Again, you choose to avoid that argument and move on to more personal attack about how I am "only 18" and how you "lived the okeetee founding" and how you have all this knowledge, but refuse to post it. You continually repeat yourself, attack others, and ignore anything that holds any resistance to your posts. AGAIN: the locality of a corn is only legitimate IF AND ONLY IF you know what corn is there. The term okeetee is initially used to describe the special look of a snake and also give the locality of where that specimine came from. Don't you think that since 99% of people who keep and breed corns use the term okeetee to describe the look of the snake, that it is much more reasonable to call your locality corns "locality okeetee" instead of making the 99% change to "okeetee phase"??? Seems to me like someone needs to illuminate on all this "hidden knowledge" they have. I am willing to learn, but AM NOT going to call. There is no reason for me to call you when there is this thread right here that I can access at any point in the day to read and reread any info that I might want to get without running up a high long-distance bill. Start posting away Vinny, you have the time.

 

[Vinman]

EGG agin WHY dont you call me up and I can EXplaine the whole thing to you.
95% how do you come up with that figure what censes have you taken this sight does compose of all the people that keep & breed corns. there many old timers that dont come on this forum. there are many big breeders that dont come on this forum. See you have not grasped that there are a whole lot of people that started this hobby that refussed to join or come on these sight that are big timers. this sigth may reach a lot of people but there a lot of peoplr that are in the sincetific communty that dont have the paintance to deal with novices. I cant blame them since I see what goes on this forum. they are too imporant to deal with all the drama. these are people that you dont tell them that their wrong. I have tried to get them of this forum and they laugh.. the fafgh at me for wasting my time. I dont think I'm wasting my time . Egg if you realy want to know the whole story and every detial call me or give me your number and I will call you. and give you all the detials . there so much that I can tell you .

 

[Rich Z]

Now EGG you are wrong read riches post yes he is trying to say that carl said that the okeetee is 10 sq. miles . I 'm glad that you have common sense to realise what carl was said when he ment 10 sq. miles

No, YOU have it wrong, Vinny. I am saying that Carl Kauffeld was really talking about 10 square miles within the Okeetee Hunt Club (as in subset) in reference to those particlar corn snakes. Not even the ENTIRE range of the hunt club. Matter of fact, he even further pinpoints that locality because the title of the chapter in which he wrote that passage I quoted is The Saga of Sandy Hill. Now, that is an identifiable starting point which you can use as a center of that 10 square miles. I think this would be a reasonable limit to place on a true locality corn snake population.

gEGG look this is not ment in a harsh way . Yo are only 18 how do you know what happend befor you were born ,this whole okeetee thing started in NYC. I got into okeetees in 1983 and did alot of reserch into the subject. carl went down for many years befor he wrote the books that mention the okeetee the whole okeetee thing was about the rich colored corns. the whole black ring thing was a added extra . Every body would talk about the color and then they mention that they look real nice when they have thick black rings , not everybody agreed. Now I know people that hunted with carl.The fact that okeetees are known for there rich ground color , not bright colors . The animal that you desire is not what carl described......

Vinny, according to your member record, you are 41 years old. That puts your birthdate at 1964. The book Snakes and Snake Hunting was published in 1957. Hmmm...... I was born in 1950. Should I use your same argument against YOU?

Now, not to throw another wrinkle into this discussion, but in some respects it may be a solution. Look at these images of some maps of the Jasper County, South Carolina area:

Note that there is an "Okatee River" as well as an "Okatie Hwy" in the second map. Further, the first map shows a "Okatee Club". Where did "Okeetee" come from, and is it a correct spelling? Or is it just a fact that no one in that area really knows how to spell that name and just did phonetic spellings whenever pressed to do so? Maybe Carl Kauffeld simply spelled the name wrong! So why not call the *TRUE* locality corns from that area as Okatee Corns? That way we will have even more confusion to throw into this mess. :crazy02:

 

[mbdorfer]

Note that there is an "Okatee River" as well as an "Okatie Hwy" in the second map. Further, the first map shows a "Okatee Club". Where did "Okeetee" come from, and is it a correct spelling? Or is it just a fact that no one in that area really knows how to spell that name and just did phonetic spellings whenever pressed to do so? Maybe Carl Kauffeld simply spelled the name wrong! So why not call the *TRUE* locality corns from that area as Okatee Corns? That way we will have even more confusion to throw into this mess. :crazy02:

Well, that certainly is a better spelling of the word based on how it is pronounced. :wavey:

 

[E. g. guttata]

EGG agin WHY dont you call me up and I can EXplaine the whole thing to you.
95% how do you come up with that figure what censes have you taken this sight does compose of all the people that keep & breed corns. there many old timers that dont come on this forum. there are many big breeders that dont come on this forum. See you have not grasped that there are a whole lot of people that started this hobby that refussed to join or come on these sight that are big timers. this sigth may reach a lot of people but there a lot of peoplr that are in the sincetific communty that dont have the paintance to deal with novices. I cant blame them since I see what goes on this forum. they are too imporant to deal with all the drama. these are people that you dont tell them that their wrong. I have tried to get them of this forum and they laugh.. the fafgh at me for wasting my time. I dont think I'm wasting my time . Egg if you realy want to know the whole story and every detial call me or give me your number and I will call you. and give you all the detials . there so much that I can tell you .

For the last time vinny, there is no need to call you. You have a computer, I have a computer. You are arguing for locality corns, I am arguinag against. You can post any knowledge you have right here for all to read to support your arguments, I can post here finding flaws and cracks in your claims. If you can take the 20 minutes or so out of your day to TALK to someone, you certainly can take the extra 10 to type it up for EVERYONE to see. That way, we ALL know that you aren't full of crap. As I am very fond of saying "I want to see proof". Not hear, not feel, not smell, not taste, but SEE. That requires typing. If it helps you to write it out before you type, so that you can make sure that you put it as clear as possible, do so. I want you to show me proof of this knowledge that you have. I'm sure that everyone would want to see it.

As far as the "experts" and "big breeders", they have the ability to come here and post THEIR knowledge. Nothing is keeping them from coming except for their egos, so as far as I'm concerned, they can go hide in their little corners, publish their papers, and breed their snakes. I am VERY grateful that this site is here and that Rich, Kathy and Don take time out of theri busy days to come in and give their knowledge to the rest of us. Are they not "big breeders" as well? The people you know must be arrogant pricks. It is complete bull crap that someone from the "scientific community" won't take time out of their day to explain something to someone, or to even give their position on an issue. How "experienced" are these "experts" of yours? Why do they decide to hide away and not help the "little guy"? Hmmm?? sounds like it's another "A friend of a friend told me...." scenario that you are so good at giving. The only real drama that happens on these forums are caused by people who won't think or debate logically, who ignore posts that are against their ideas, and who attack other members on a personal level, very similar to what you are continuing to do to me.

And for the last time: NEVER use your age against me AGAIN. I have been very patient with your last few posts trying to discredit me becasue I am 18. Just remember this Vinny; I will grow up, and I don't exactly plan on getting rid of my snakes. As a matter of fact, I plan on opening my own snake shop. I am not as ignorant or stupid as you are trying to make me look. I think you just can't take criticism well, but I will not tolorate any more references to my age from you.

All that being said, just post your knowledge, 2, 3, maybe 4 if that's what it takes, don't do any more of those crappy little attacks of yours, and try to have an intelligent discussion here. No more repitition, it gets old.

 

[Serpwidgets]

these are people that you dont tell them that their wrong.

No such person has ever walked this Earth.

 

[Rich Z]

these are people that you dont tell them that their wrong.

No such person has ever walked this Earth.

Hah! Just check their desk and see if their pencils have erasers on them.

And just for the record, no disrespect to those folks here who are deeply religious, but when I die, I hope I get an audience with God himself. I plan to tell him I think he is wrong about some things here on Earth. There are better ways of moving people on to the next life without having to inflict cancer on them.

 

[mbdorfer]

Hah! Just check their desk and see if their pencils have erasers on them.

And just for the record, no disrespect to those folks here who are deeply religious, but when I die, I hope I get an audience with God himself. I plan to tell him I think he is wrong about some things here on Earth. There are better ways of moving people on to the next life without having to inflict cancer on them.

Rich, that is a statement that can't be ignored, If it is a loved one, I am deeply sympathetic, and in agreement as both of my parents are fighting it.

 

[Alias47]

WOW....

Well...I began with the intention to read the entire thread...after getting through the first 50 posts...I began to scan...most people only have to shovel the stalls out once...
Seems Vin has been shoveling the same stall for a while now...and still isn't through...

Should talk to some of the grey band and mountain king people about locality for a while Vin...talk about SPECIFIC...
They would tear up your Okeetee "region"
You need to have it down to GPS readings to be sure...and the look would have nothing to do with it...

My REAL comment had to do with Hurley's comment in post #24...
You actually used the term "Vomitmel" which had me absolutely DYING with laughter all the way to the end of this waste of breath...

I think Serp, Hurley, Rich and Kathy all described it best...
Natural selection isn't present in captive populations...

If I bred normals in my basement...would I suddenly have a new and expensive locale corn called the Plainfield Basement corn?
If I did, would you have to use 'phase' behind it when describing animals that look like them? Only if I trademarked the name...LOL

 

[El Jefe]

new can of worms

Hey,

I don't mean to open a new can of worms...

But....

I know people who hunted the okeetee area in the late 80's and 90's and who bred the snakes they caught and RELEASED them back onto the plantation areas. The first time I hunted the area was based on notes and directions from one of these people. He told me that such and such would be a good spot because he had released a bunch of animals there.

I don't want to get into a "responsibility" thread but I just thought I'd add this for you "true" locality buffs. (and NO, I do not do this nor beleive in it)

Furthermore, I'm willing to bet the pairings done in captivity were probably NOT the ones that would have happened in the wild and the release sites of the babies probably would NOT coincide with what the females would have done.

Now what?

 

[Alias47]

I believe there are STILL people releasing into this population...

(*cough cough* CHIP cough cough*)

 

[Serpwidgets]

Just as a reminder... if you "invalidate" the locality usage by saying there are no clear boundaries, then by the same exact token you must also consider the "look" usage invalid, because it also does not have exacting criteria. But that whole thing is pointless, anyway.

A word means what it means based on usage. There's no one person or small group who has a monopoly on the meaning of a word. It is not dictated by some absolute authority. It comes from usage. 65% of the English language originated as Latin. If you are going to argue that the only "valid" meaning of any word is the first one that was used, then by that rule, pretty much every single time you open your mouth, whatever you say is "invalid."

The original coca-cola formula had cocaine in it. That is how the word "coke" came about. It was "coined" as "coke" BECAUSE it had cocaine in it.

Nowadays it does not. So what? Does that mean that "coca-cola" is now invalid? Absolutely not. The formula for coke has changed over time. What is sold today as "coke" is not the same as it was back then. But "coke" or "coca-cola" are still valid uses for the product that is being sold today. There is no "true" coke, because there's no "false" coke. It means what it means today because that is what is manufactured, sold, bought, consumed, and referred to under that name today.

The same is true of the "okeetee" look. That is what, in the majority of cases, is being produced, labeled, bought, sold, enjoyed, and referred to as "okeetee" in the year 2005. This is not 1957, or 1964, or 1983. It's 2005.

If you run in some circles where the majority of people are locality collectors and when they say "okeetee" they mean a locality, it works for you, it's valid in that context, and that's all fine and dandy. But to tell everyone else their okeetees are "false" and that they are committing fraud, because their coca-cola does not have cocaine in it, is completely absurd.

 

[Alias47]

Slightly off topic...but to run with the Coke thing...

Coca-Cola...the two main active ingredients (this was originally a medicinal syrup)...coca leaf extract-kola nut extract...

Although many believe that the "cocaine" (not really cocaine, just an extractive of the coca leaf) is no longer present (as well as the Kola to tell the truth), being replaced by artificial flavoring agents...the current formula for their fountain beverage (as stated by McDonald's...one of their largest users) are: Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup and/or sucrose, caramel color, phosphoric acid, natural flavors (vegetable source), caffeine.
The Coca-Cola company still uses coca leaves and kola nut to flavor their beverage...

This from Wikipedia:

"In 1885, when Atlanta and Fulton County passed Prohibition legislation, Pemberton responded by developing Coca-Cola, essentially a carbonated, non-alcoholic version of French Wine Cola. The beverage was named Coca-Cola because originally, the stimulant mixed in the beverage was coca leaves from South America. In addition, the drink was flavored using kola (Cola) nuts, the beverage's source of caffeine. Pemberton called for 5 ounces of coca leaf per gallon of syrup, a significant dose, whereas in 1891 Candler claimed his formula (altered extensively from Pemberton's original) contained only a tenth of this amount. Contrary to popular belief, Coca-Cola never contained cocaine per se, which is a highly-refined extract of coca leaves and was always far too expensive to use in a mass-market beverage. However, as cocaine is one of numerous alkaloids present in the coca leaf, it was nevertheless present in the drink. Today, the flavoring is still done with kola nuts and the coca leaf. However, the coca leaves used today are "spent" leaves, the leftovers of the cocaine-extraction process, and the drink contains no trace of the stimulant."



SO what this is saying is that...even if you hand caught your "Okeetee" in the region you feel is the "Okeetee" area of Jasper County...it may not really be an Okeetee...and if you have one that looks right and was not caught in the boundaries (whatever they may be) you may actually have one...

The argument over okeetee "locale vs. representative look" is ridiculous...

They are all Okeetee at this point...and that is that...
The bellyaching over what some people feel is the proper use of the term is just incessant and needless whining...

It's not going to change the fact that people are going to refer to a normal that has thick black saddle borders and bright colors as an Okeetee...even if it was hand caught in Alabama...
Besides proving locale is a HARD thing...unless you caught it yourself...and are keeping it...
How do I know that because you say yours are a locale, they truly are?
And how do you know that any you didn't catch yourself are TRULY locale?
Taking someones word for it?

This is a silly debate...I think I will call them normals...NICE normals...but normals just the same...

 

[Vinman]

No, YOU have it wrong, Vinny. I am saying that Carl Kauffeld was really talking about 10 square miles within the Okeetee Hunt Club (as in subset) in reference to those particlar corn snakes. Not even the ENTIRE range of the hunt club. Matter of fact, he even further pinpoints that locality because the title of the chapter in which he wrote that passage I :sidestep: quoted is The Saga of Sandy Hill. Now, that is an identifiable starting point which you can use as a center of that 10 square miles. I think this would be a reasonable limit to place on a true locality corn snake population.

Rich wouldn't the club house be a better starting point



Vinny, according to your member record, you are 41 years old. That puts your birthdate at 1964. The book Snakes and Snake Hunting was published in 1957. Hmmm...... I was born in 1950. Should I use your same argument against YOU?

RchI was born 1963 I will be 42 in june you are only 7 years older egg, is 24 years younger he is young enuff to be my child

Now, not to throw another wrinkle into this discussion, but in some respects it may be a solution. Look at these images of some maps of the Jasper County, South Carolina area:

this map you posted is only showing a small portion of the okeetee. I didn't know if you new this when you posted the map or you are showing a 10 sq. mile of the okeetee?

Note that there is an "Okatee River" as well as an "Okatie Hwy" in the second map. Further, the first map shows a "Okatee Club". Where did "Okeetee" come from, and is it a correct spelling? Or is it just a fact that no one in that area really knows how to spell that name and just did phonetic spellings whenever pressed to do so? Maybe Carl Kauffeld simply spelled the name wrong! So why not call the *TRUE* locality corns from that area as Okatee Corns? That way we will have even more confusion to throw into this mess. :crazy02:

you know as well as I this map above is not where carl hunted. He brought people to theokeetee to hunt with him. and this is a copy cat name Okeetee is a native american name,it is pronouced O kee tee, not oka a tee so not are you using the name wrong but pronuceing it wrong I think the second map is in beufort co .There no "Okatee Club". on this map what areyou talking about

 

[E. g. guttata]

you know as well as I this map above is not where carl hunted. He brought people to theokeetee to hunt with him. and this is a copy cat name Okeetee is a native american name,it is pronouced O kee tee, not oka a tee so not are you using the name wrong but pronuceing it wrong I think the second map is in beufort co .There no "Okatee Club". on this map what areyou talking about

Umm Vinny, just to dicredit that statement.....
Here is a map of Jasper county. Notice that there is the same I-95 highway and the same Switzerland Rd. (US 17). Maybe it is YOU who do not know exactly what was being talked about... I can get more images, it's no problem. And there is an "Okatee Club" on one of the maps, open your eyes. Look to the left of I-95 on the green map that Rich posted. I think you need to get your story strait here. And I don't give a damn if I'm 24 years younger than you. Age does not equate into knowledge. Age is just a measurement of time.

 

[Vinman]

EGG I was looking at the wrong map. did any body think that okatee was mispelled that iswhere my fem is from Switzerland