Queston for hunters...

[Nova_C]

Why must we choose? Correct me if my history is bad, but isn't the US a nation founded on the very ideal of "freedom" to escape the tyranny of the crown and England? I always thought so. Now I agree, there has to be some limits and keep things within reason, but to repeal the original ideals and articles of the constitution that made our nation what it is?

You just answered your own question. "Some limits" and "Keep things withing reason" is why we must choose. The only contentious point is where those limits should be.

Question: Should Crystal Meth be legal? If not, isn't that infringing on people's freedom?

If our system is so bad, why do we have so many people around the world working with all they have to get to the US to escape whatever socialist/monarchy/communist society or whatever they live in to get here?

Who said it was so bad? I'm simply arguing against the notion that socialism is an inherently bad thing.

 

[sierraherps]

A friend out west told me tonight that he can't seem to find ammunition like usual. We haven't looked here in Florida for a while. I am hearing rumors about scarcity with the new administration. Anybody else notice any unusual scarcity?

LMAO!!!! Now SEE what you started Kathy?!?!?!?! This turned into "Quite the Informational Hunters" thread huh!? hehehe

But hey... You know what? I am TRULY enjoying seeing people able to "Discuss Political Opinions & Oppositions" with out all the insightful anger & frustration, no snap critisisms or any of the name calling that has usually seemed to follow that subject these last few years...!!! :twohammer So, I just felt the need to tell you good people...

I am so very greatful to ALL OF YOU for all your help & advise being so "Snake & Reptile" savy & all... And now I am even MORE impressed, not only your willingness to discuss & debate everything "Snake rellated" but also the obvious intelligence you all show by these Friendly debates on other serious topics....And the respect it shows!

Heck! You all give me some hope back as to the future of humanity on the whole! THANKX!!! :cheers:

 

[kathylove]

You always hear people say that you shouldn't discuss politics and religion because of the emotional fires that can heat up. But the emotional involvement is exactly why they are interesting to discuss and debate.

You will never learn anything new if you only have discussions with people who agree with you. As long as people are respectful and civil, it can be really illuminating to hear "the opposition" and to also give your own opinion. Sometimes it might even change your mind. Or at the very least, it can help you further understand why you believe your own opinion to be correct. I don't mind hearing from people who disagree, especially if they can state logical reasons for their opinions. But I don't pay too much attention to those have those opinions only because "that is what my granddaddy told me and his granddaddy told him, and that is what my family has always believed", lol!

 

[tyflier]

You just answered your own question. "Some limits" and "Keep things withing reason" is why we must choose. The only contentious point is where those limits should be.

Question: Should Crystal Meth be legal? If not, isn't that infringing on people's freedom?...

No. Crystal Meth is a manufactured and controlled substance. Just like any man-made, controlled substance...it is..well..controlled. Prescriptions, alcohol, manufactured chemical stimulants, depressants, opiates...these are all processed. They are all man made and either processed from natural substanmces or entirely synthetic. Either way, they are and should be controlled as they pose a threat to the greater population.

Your rights cannot infringe upon my rights and vice versa. If they do, we need regulations in place to protect both parties. This is WHY we need governmental regulations and controls.

Who said it was so bad? I'm simply arguing against the notion that socialism is an inherently bad thing.

But socialism is not an inherantly GOOD thing, either. I agree that socialized medicine *might* make things easier for some people...some form of Federal Insurance or something. But it could make things worse for just as many people. So where do we draw the line?

Anytime you have 2 extreme takes on a single situation, both are going to have strong points and weak points. True capitalism doesn't work. Look where we are now. You cannot allow a profitable industry to regulate itself. It simply doesn't work because of greed. You also cannot deny people the right to live and succeed, and to be rewarded for their efforts. True socialism doesn't work because it leaves no room for progress, growth, or personal gain.

You need regulations to make capitalism work or the economy collapses due to greed and deciet. You need to allow people to strive for betterment, or the economy simply collapses due to laziness and loathing. Neither one nor the other is going to fix our current situation by itself. We need to find that shaded grey area...

 

[Nova_C]

No. Crystal Meth is a manufactured and controlled substance. Just like any man-made, controlled substance...it is..well..controlled. Prescriptions, alcohol, manufactured chemical stimulants, depressants, opiates...these are all processed. They are all man made and either processed from natural substanmces or entirely synthetic. Either way, they are and should be controlled as they pose a threat to the greater population.

Why control it, though? Or make it illegal? Possessing or selling Crystal Meth will get you arrested. Why? Alcohol is legal to buy and legal to sell with a license, but the same is not true of Crystal Meth? What danger does Crystal Meth pose that alcohol does not?

You need regulations to make capitalism work or the economy collapses due to greed and deciet. You need to allow people to strive for betterment, or the economy simply collapses due to laziness and loathing. Neither one nor the other is going to fix our current situation by itself. We need to find that shaded grey area...

Exactly.

So why is Socialism a taboo word in the United States if a balanced combination of Socialism and Capitalism is best?

 

[kathylove]

"...You cannot allow a profitable industry to regulate itself. It simply doesn't work because of greed..."

Although there is some truth to this, many proponents of more government regulation tend to forget that the individuals in charge of either promulgating or enforcing the regulations generally have some sort of personal agenda of their own, and are not usually completely altruistic, anymore than the people who run a business. A government employee / bureaucrat could be motivated by anything from increasing their own power and influence by increasing the size of their own agency and its budget, to actual corruption, to just throwing their weight around just "because they can". In many cases, I would prefer to "trust" a businessman, because at least I can pretty much assume their motives are for profit for their company. With government employees, motivation can sometimes be murkier to discern.

Please bear in mind that I am not saying to always trust business owners and distrust government. I am just saying that I think too many people just assume the government is altruistic and unbiased in its quest to "help you", and I think that it can be a very dangerous assumption.

I also think that a lot of the housing collapse could be due to government pressure to be politically correct and make unsound housing loans to those who couldn't afford them - to help them realize the "American Dream" of owning a house that they unfortunately could not afford. From what I have read, the pressure to make those loans was considerable. I am not letting greedy banking and loan officials off the hook, though. And even unthinking middle class individuals who took "interest only" loans they couldn't afford share some blame, although at least they have the excuse that they are not professionals in the finance field, as the banks and government officials who oversee them claim to be.

 

[kathylove]

"...Alcohol is legal to buy and legal to sell with a license, but the same is not true of Crystal Meth?..."

Actually, I believe that if drugs were controlled and taxed like alcohol and cigarettes, society would be much better off. It would remove the huge profit motive of the "drug lords" and also remove a lot of the reason to get new people hooked on the drugs they sell. It would remove a lot of the reason for drug related crimes, and remove a lot of the prison population we have to support. And the taxes collected could be earmarked for rehab of drug users who need or want rehab.

When is the last time you heard of large scale alcohol sales related violent crimes? Maybe back in the Al Capone days of prohibition? Gee, do we see a trend here, lol? But that is exactly why it will probably never happen. Drug dealers have way too much profit invested in keeping it illegal. That is why they sell drugs and not alcohol - more profit. And government has way too much invested in keeping it illegal. Especially before they had terrorists to scare us with, how would they have scared us into accepting the Patriot Act and other search and seizure laws that had always constituted illegal force in the past - except to scare us by saying that our kids will all be on illegal drugs if we don't give more power and money to the government to stop it? And that has worked really well for us - no drug problems here anymore, lol! Isn't it strange that the same kind of problems arose during alcohol prohibition, but now are associated with drug sales instead?

Those are some of the reasons that I trust government even less than I trust business or individuals to look out for my interests. You are better off looking out for your own interests, and banding together with friends or associates of your own choosing to "watch each others' backs", in my opinion.

 

[Snyderman]

Steel slingshot balls? Are they still readily available?!

I'm making a list of what I need to stock up on.
D80

I would recommend you stock up on several dozen rotten eggs. Their power actually increases over time. I would avoid buying the tomatoes until you have an actual target in mind, as people have reported problems trying to fire tomatoes that have been stored longer than 3-months.

:bounce:

 

[KJUN]

Why control it, though? Or make it illegal? Possessing or selling Crystal Meth will get you arrested. Why? Alcohol is legal to buy and legal to sell with a license, but the same is not true of Crystal Meth? What danger does Crystal Meth pose that alcohol does not?



Exactly.

So why is Socialism a taboo word in the United States if a balanced combination of Socialism and Capitalism is best?

You imply that the "drug problem" is special to the US. Are you saying meth and coke are legal in Canada and Europe. Can I buy it in a drug store and get stoned out my gourd in the open while eating a Big Mac? Make up your mind if you are attacking the US's laws that agree or disagree with the laws in the countries you claimed were successful socialisms.

Socialism is "taboo," as you put it, because a balance is not best even if it is only insinuated into an otherwise free society.

 

[JNugent]

Quite a thread turning out to be. Nova, I see where you're going on the drug thing. But when I say within reason or limitations, not exactly what I mean. I'm thinking more of violations of basic human rights, equality amongst the different people, oppression etc. I don't think it's a basic human right to be able to use crystal meth. I don't know why anyone would want to anyway. Most of the money I consider to be wasted in the US Drug War would be on marijuana. Let's face it, it's a PLANT. Making nature illegal.. that's awesome. Most drug offenders incarcerated are due to marijuana, we spend billions of dollars a year running helicopters, trucks, man hours or whatever hunting it out, burning it down etc. The only reason I'm ok with this as opposed to other manufactured substances is that I am, you could say, a worshipper of nature. Heck, legalize marijuana, tax it and cut out some of the national debt, stop wasting taxpayer money on fighting it, cut out some crime associated with it and let me stop paying to keep people in jail over it. I don't use it or advocate people using drugs per say, but it seems like a lot of to do about a little plant. Like Kathy said, the reason drugs are so profitable for gangs/criminals is the very fact it's illegal. Way too much profit to be made off it.

 

[tsst]

Nova_C my friend. I think why most US citizens do not jump for joy at the thought of socialism is because it generally leads to less self control. Whether it is owning a gun or choosing a doctor or choosing a school. The more socialistic the society the less individual control. Americans have enjoyed the most liberty of any present day society and that is something that is difficult to relinquish. Hence "give me liberty or give me death". Especially since most governments on the globe have not proven themselves much more capable of making the "right" decision.

 

[Drizzt80]

Lead? I know Carol mentioned lead shot, but how about lead balls and sabot for muzzleloaders?

D80

 

[Nova_C]

Nova_C my friend. I think why most US citizens do not jump for joy at the thought of socialism is because it generally leads to less self control. Whether it is owning a gun or choosing a doctor or choosing a school. The more socialistic the society the less individual control. Americans have enjoyed the most liberty of any present day society and that is something that is difficult to relinquish. Hence "give me liberty or give me death". Especially since most governments on the globe have not proven themselves much more capable of making the "right" decision.

I disagree. There is no reason a socialist economic system cannot be paired with a democratic 'free' government, especially since we're talking in degrees of gray, and not black and white extremes.

I also disagree that Americans enjoy the most liberty of any present day society. Your government has eroded your liberties and many economic policies that hide under the guise of 'free market' limit choices.

I have the freedom to choose any doctor, visit any hospital, get any necessary treatment even though I don't make much money and live in one of the most expensive cities in Canada. I went 22 years between hospital visits. In the past six months a host of health issues have cropped up related to my heart and kidneys. It has cost me around $160 in total for all the tests and treatments I have had - were I in the US and uninsured, I would not have the freedom to seek out treatment simply because I would not have enough money.

JNugent, you're right that drugs are not a basic human right, but this topic got started with the threat of gun control in the United States. Gun ownership is also not a basic human right.

 

[Nova_C]

Addendum: If I WAS insured in the US, it still is not freedom because I would have to get a private corporation's permission to seek out treatment.

 

[JNugent]

JNugent, you're right that drugs are not a basic human right, but this topic got started with the threat of gun control in the United States. Gun ownership is also not a basic human right.

Not a basic human right, but a right promised to us in the document which founded our nation. Drugs, not so much.

 

[Nova_C]

Not a basic human right, but a right promised to us in the document which founded our nation. Drugs, not so much.

But there's nothing to say those rights can't be limited. There are limits to the rights of free speech and assembly. And, for example, banning fully automatic weapons and pistols does not prevent someone from bearing arms.

 

[mike17l]

But there's nothing to say those rights can't be limited. There are limits to the rights of free speech and assembly. And, for example, banning fully automatic weapons and pistols does not prevent someone from bearing arms.

But, what is the point of banning a fully automatic pistol? Who would it prevent from getting one? Would it prevent a criminal? I think not, I know for a fact that they can be got illegally, if one so desires. Would it prevent the law abiding citizen? YES. This is the problem many have with gun control, it does nothing to slow down or stop the acquisition of illegal firearms by criminals, it only impedes law abiding citizens from being able to protect themselves or enjoy a hobby.

 

[KJUN]

Not a basic human right, but a right promised to us in the document which founded our nation. Drugs, not so much.

Actually that is wrong. The BOR is an enumeration of those rights that ALL Americans have just by being born. The OR does NOT give us those rights - it is written down to remind the .gov that we HAVE those rights. They can legislate against them,. but they can never - and will never - take away the rights we are born with. Any such attempt is a violation of the treaty that united these sovereign states together. You can't enslave a free man - only he can ALLOW you to enslave him. Any violation of those rights enumerated in the BOR is wrong: whether it is the campaign reform Act or the NFA of '38.

KJ

 

[KJUN]

But there's nothing to say those rights can't be limited. There are limits to the rights of free speech and assembly. And, for example, banning fully automatic weapons and pistols does not prevent someone from bearing arms.

Banning pistols just makes the weaker subjected to the will of the stronger. Period. It makes criminals more powerful that weaker sheeple...I mean, victims. The difference between an armed person and an unarmed one is the difference between a citizen and a serf. Be happy as a serf if you want. I will remain a free citizen. Thank you very much.
KJ

 

[Drizzt80]

Okay, who wants to start a list of calibers that are/aren't readily available? Here's what I have so far. I figure someone with a tad more time than me could put these into a spreadsheet, make a column for each state (don't forget the republic (?) of Puerto Rico!!) and we could all go find out what's what . . . (PS. It may not just be about the metals! How about plastics . . . see below.)

.17 Remington
.177 caliber Pellet and BB Gun
.204 Ruger
.218, .219 .220, .221, .222, .223, .224, .225, .226
.22 Long Rifle, .223 Remington (5.56mm NATO), 5.7 x 28 mm
.228
.243 Winchester, 6 mm Remington
.25 ACP, 6.35x16mmSR
.257 Roberts, .25-06 Remington
6.5 x 55 mm
.270 Winchester
7 mm Remington Magnum, 7 x 57 mm
30-06 .308 Winchester (7.62mm NATO)
.303 British, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R Other ".30 caliber"
.32 ACP, .32 S&W, .327 Federal Magnum
.325 WSM, 8 mm Remington Magnum, 8mm plastic (airsoft) BBs .32 caliber rifle cartridges
.38 Special, .380 ACP, .357 Magnum, .35 Remington
.38-40 Old black powder cartridge
.40 S&W, 10 mm Auto
.404 Jeffery
.405 Winchester
.41 Magnum .41 Action Express
.43 SL large
.44 Magnum
.45-70 Government
.454 Casull
.460 Weatherby, .458 Winchester Magnum
.480 Ruger, .475 Linebaugh
.50 AE, .500 S&W, .50 Beowulf
.50 BMG, 12.7 x 108 mm
.68

Lead Shot
Lead Balls
Lead Sabots

:sidestep:
D80