Short Brumation with "medium" temperatures?

[greenman]

I have a couple snakes I am going to brumate for the first time. I have one concern.

I understand the goal of the brumation is initiate a metabolic shut down and it inspire the breed cycles of the snakes. I don't think I have the resources to cool the snakes down enough. The town i live in get quite cold during the winter so I can't leave the snakes outside. If i take the snakes off the heat pads and leave them near a window but out of sight, the temperature will be around 65.

is 65 to low? If it "isn't" can i do a short brumation? Would it be better?

I want the best chances to have these snakes breed, I have been unsuccessful with not brumating in the past.

Your advice as always, is extremely welcome!

 

[Nanci]

65 is the best I can do without AC. I don't know if it made a difference or not. The pair that was infertile in 2009, non-brumated, was also infertile in 2010, with a short medium brumation. Some brumated snakes had big clutches, some non-brumated snakes had big clutches.

 

[greenman]

What was your duration like in that case?

 

[Susan]

Ideal brumation temps range from around 50F to 65F at the upper limits with the occasion short-term drop into the 40s or short-term highs into the 70s. If you can't get your snakes a little cooler and still keep them in the house, then 65F will be fine for I would say a minimum length for brumation of 4-6 weeks, but preferable 8-12 week period.

 

[greenman]

I think it will be a fluctuation between 60-70 for sure. I may only do a 4-6 weeks brumation then heat them up again. Just to make sure that nothing bad happens.

Plus i want some babies asap!

 

[fyrefocks]

Plus i want some babies asap!

Thats not a good reason to rush things.

I brumate everything (corn and hog adults and babies) for 8-10 weeks every year. Last year my nightly temps were in the 40s with daytime temps in the 50s. If youre snakes are healthy, and not stubborn, they will survive just fine. Of course brumation isnt without its risks, but its worth it, i think.

 

[bitsy]

Plus i want some babies asap!

I don't think brumation (even the full version) speeds up breeding or makes them breed earlier. You could usually only do that by controlling their day/night cycle to fool them into thinking that it's Spring when it isn't (although people do have odd clutches outside the normal breeding season due to accidental matings).

 

[chris68]

I do a 6 week brumation at about 74 degrees, in complete darkness. I don't have a way to do a full, seasonal-replication brumation, so I've found what works for me :*)

 

[greenman]

Thanks Chris, that makes me feel much more comfortable.

I would hardly say I am "rushing" things, don't mistake my eagerness for an rushing. My thoughts are if I do a brumation in "medium" temperatures for a long period time that it could potentially have most risks because I may not stimulate a full metabolic shut down.

I am grateful to hear some have the same issue as I do.

 

[greenman]

I don't think brumation (even the full version) speeds up breeding or makes them breed earlier. You could usually only do that by controlling their day/night cycle to fool them into thinking that it's Spring when it isn't (although people do have odd clutches outside the normal breeding season due to accidental matings).

I am certainly not bias towards brumating or not, I plan to try both methods of breeding this year. Lets see what this year brings c:

 

[dave partington]

Plus i want some babies asap!

My personal thoughts around this are
300 grams AND 3 ft is the MINIMUMweight/length for breeding corns, and that would be for morphs which contain genetic types of smaller varieties, that is, keys corns, rosys, the varieties/forms which tend to be small as adults.
I've had bad experiences in the past from breeding females that were under 360 grams (egg binding, prolapses, death), so I prefer for the gals to be larger. I also like to make sure they can eat/pass larger meals (jumbo mice/rat weanlings) several times to ensure they are all stretchy down there before they have to pass an entire clutch.
There are exceptions, but please try not to base rules upon exceptions.

I brumate mine between 52 and 64, for 12 weeks. I only brumate the ones which have some fat on them. I believe brumating for longer tends to cause them to absorb too much of the beneficial bacteria in their guts, which can lead to regurgs and digestion problems in the Spring, not something I want to have throw off their breeding cycle for the year.

A few of the females are hovering around 310 grams now, I'll keep them warm and keep on feeding them thru the winter and then brumate them in January/February, possibly late as March, for only 4 weeks, if they are 'up to size'.

I brumate in a wine cooler (refrigerator made for bottles of wine), and open the door and allow fresh air in daily. I stripped the insides of it out, so there is no wood racks (I did not know what kind of wood it is and if it had been chemically treated; better safe than sorry). Got it off of craigslist.

hope this helps.
dave

 

[bitsy]

I am certainly not bias towards brumating or not

Can't say I am either, but I know I can't provide the right conditions for brumation so I've never been able to try it.

Just don't think that brumating will give you what you're trying to achieve, which seems to be earlier mating/hatching (if I've understood you right). It's said to improve fertility and clutch sizes though - not that I had a problem with those aspects without. Will be interested to see your comparative results, although without full brumation they might not be what you'd normally expect.

 

[Lyion]

Can't say I am either, but I know I can't provide the right conditions for brumation so I've never been able to try it.

Just don't think that brumating will give you what you're trying to achieve, which seems to be earlier mating/hatching (if I've understood you right). It's said to improve fertility and clutch sizes though - not that I had a problem with those aspects without. Will be interested to see your comparative results, although without full brumation they might not be what you'd normally expect.

Hmmm... What have you done then? Just placed them together overnight? (After all precautions taken and plans made?) I want to breed but was downhearted because I wouldn't be able to brumate

 

[bitsy]

I wait until the female has her first shed of the year - can be any time from January onwards, but usually February or March.

I put the male in with the female for a few hours - I've tended to do it late afternoon/early evening so that I can be in the room to separate them if necessary. If I see a hook-up, I separate them once they unlock. I also separate them if the female is completely unreceptive or the male doesn't show any interest, and try again the next week (don't want to stress them out).

Brumation isn't vital in order to breed.

 

[wildlifephotographer]

I didn't brumate last winter and bred for the first time this year 2011. I got one good clutch of eggs 19 of them, which all hatched out healthy except one who had the yoke stem still attached and died from over heating a week later. The rest though did pretty good. My other two females that I bred - the very first one was an accidental breeding and her eggs were healthy and viable but all went bad because of no way to incubate them successfully..that was 11 eggs. And my second clutch from my oldest female Diamond I think 23 eggs total, she took 4 days to lay all her eggs and almost every single one came out as a slug or in really bad shape. Only two were incubated but was punctured half way through the incubation period and so did not make it. Rose my youngest female just over 3 yrs of age laid the 19 eggs that successfully hatched. She also double clutched but none of those eggs ended up hatching.
I was wanting to brumate for the first time this winter, to see if that would help the success rate of the eggs being fertile and help the babies be more healthy. But I was told by someone that keeping them in my bedroom where it is kinda warm and trying to keep their temps down between 50-65 degrees would cause me to have a sick snake. Is that everyone or most people's opinion on here? Or do some of you think it would be alright for me to brumate them in my bedroom where the heater is on at night while sleeping would still be okay? My room stays in the mid 70's with the heat turned on low. If I turned the heating pads off in a couple of weeks and covered up the tanks with black bed sheets to give the snakes the darkness they need would that work? Thanks for any suggestions or tips. I appreciate it much.

 

[Davil11]

My personal thoughts around this are
300 grams AND 3 ft is the MINIMUMweight/length for breeding corns, and that would be for morphs which contain genetic types of smaller varieties, that is, keys corns, rosys, the varieties/forms which tend to be small as adults.
I've had bad experiences in the past from breeding females that were under 360 grams (egg binding, prolapses, death), so I prefer for the gals to be larger. I also like to make sure they can eat/pass larger meals (jumbo mice/rat weanlings) several times to ensure they are all stretchy down there before they have to pass an entire clutch.
There are exceptions, but please try not to base rules upon exceptions.

I brumate mine between 52 and 64, for 12 weeks. I only brumate the ones which have some fat on them. I believe brumating for longer tends to cause them to absorb too much of the beneficial bacteria in their guts, which can lead to regurgs and digestion problems in the Spring, not something I want to have throw off their breeding cycle for the year.

A few of the females are hovering around 310 grams now, I'll keep them warm and keep on feeding them thru the winter and then brumate them in January/February, possibly late as March, for only 4 weeks, if they are 'up to size'.

I brumate in a wine cooler (refrigerator made for bottles of wine), and open the door and allow fresh air in daily. I stripped the insides of it out, so there is no wood racks (I did not know what kind of wood it is and if it had been chemically treated; better safe than sorry). Got it off of craigslist.

hope this helps.
dave

This wine cooler idea sounds very interesting. Could you post some pics?

 

[BR289]

Ridgecrest? Ya'll had an earthquake this morning I see.... My sister and Brother in law live in Ridgecrest and work at China Lake....
Hope all is well and no damage!

 

[Davil11]

Ridgecrest? Ya'll had an earthquake this morning I see.... My sister and Brother in law live in Ridgecrest and work at China Lake....
Hope all is well and no damage!

We did have an earthquake today! First one I've ever been in! I'm a F/A-18 Superhornet mechanic in the Navy and work at China Lake as well. Thanks for the good thoughts, only thing that's gone wrong as far as I know is my cable Internet is down. Thank God for iPhone 4!

 

[dave partington]

This wine cooler idea sounds very interesting. Could you post some pics?

Here you go, they cost around 1800 & sky's the limit when new, this cooler was a lot less on the craigslist. There are also 'mini-wine coolers' available some places. Another option is to look for a used household appliances store. This one came out of a restaurant that had closed.

 

[raf06001]

My dad retired from China Lake in 2008. I can't remember his exact title but he was responsible for the facilities I believe.

I have an unique situation and am debating no brumation or a short one. I received my new bloodred male last week and he needs some beefing up. I'm fearful about putting him down for 2 months. My female I got a few months ago and have been putting weight on her but she is I'm fearful for her also. I am pretty sure she would be fine, but I'd sure hate it if something happened. I am thinking about giving them increased feeding til, December 16th. Then putting them both down for 4 weeks. Does anyone have any suggestions? Also, she has never bred before and shed on Nov 4. Is that timing going to effect anything?