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Some People... (rant!)

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RobbiesCornField said:
As far as chickens vs. dogs, I definitely have to agree that chickens, for the most part, are a LOT quieter than dogs.
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Dog hater :(! Just kidding, of course. A Chicken could never replace my dog, never, but I love Kathy's ideas. Dogs may be louder, but they're cuter, smell better (umm... never mind), but they are cuter :)!
 
Dinah said:
Ty, we already had our Panda porn threat last night, so I am really done with this argument. You say you read my posts, but yet I conceded point one to you, I said that I admit that things can be lost in translation when discussed over the internet and if you say that those quotes which I took from your posts where not intended to be directed specifically at YBH then I believe you. Just a hint, but once a person concedes a point to you, there is no longer a reason to argue that point.
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I'm not arguing a point. I'm correcting your implications bvs. what was actually written. Big difference. It doesn't matter if you "concede" when you folow that with "...though it sure seems to me...". "Conceding the point" would be, "OK. Misunderstood you. Sorry." Notice the difference?

As for the rest of the points, I provided specific documentation, links to the growth charts, etc. I would NEVER call someone wrong without providing evidence to back up what I have said. It seems you do not feel that way, you are happy to call me wrong without any documentation provided. And to be honest I understand that the nature of the internet is such that there are some people who are like that. Everyone on here can read the posts, read my evidence, and read your opinions and rebuttals (I'm sure they would be happy to read your evidence as well but you never cited any). Then I am totally confident that they can make up their own minds, some people really value evidence, and some people prefer to make their decisions based on opinions and speculations and it is up to everyone individually to decide for themselves how they want to make their decisions.
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All of your referances and charts and "data" support precisely what I've said all along...supplementation is required for a majority of individuals following a strict vegan diet. Your charts show that the average human being will continue to grow and gain weight from 16-32. And your book repeatedly states that there are often issues with bone density, muscle mass, and protein absorption in infants and children on a vegan diet. It DOES say with that proper supplementation, they can be balanced and lerfectly healthy.

The thing that you keep on missing is that I have continued to say that supplements are almost always needed, your BOOK says that supplements are needed in a wide variety of cases, and your charts support my own growth claims. I don't need to provide "sources" because YOUR sources say the same thing that I am saying. What more sources do you need? :shrugs:

I didn't call your data wrong. I called your accusations against me wrong. You are wrong in that I never questioned ay specific individual's health, well-being, dietary choices, or anything else. I amde generalized statements that you and YBH took personally. THAT is what you are wrong about. I lioke your sources. I agree with your sources, and your sources, for the most part, agree with me. What's the problem? :shrugs:

You are welcome to your opinions and you are welcome to make your own decision about your diet. You are even welcome to totally ignore all of the actual evidence that I presented and to call me wrong despite the fact that I provided evidence to back up the things that I said. I am not going to participate in beating what really is a dead horse at this point. I am confident that everyone here has the ability to make these decisions for themselves, and I am confident that those who are truly interested will look at the actual information and sources that were provided.
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Again...I never called your data wrong or inaccurate. I never said vegan/vegetarian diets were unhealthy. What I said was that in a majority of instances, vegans and vegetarians need to supplement their diets with vitamins, minerals, and medicinal supplements in order to be "healthy". Your sources agree with this statement.

I know that some people have incredibly good diet habits. YBH is evidently one of those people. But it doesn't change the fact that a good percfentage of people following a strict vegan diet will need some sort of man-made or man-processed supplementation in order to maintain a healthy nutritional ballance. Perhaps you should re-read your own sources?

I have enough confidence in what I say to not have to continue to argue this with you. I am tired of it. I feel like I am on some sort of carousel ride where I present facts/research/links and evidence and you rebut by saying that isn't true because you personally don't consider it normal, or because in your opinion or in your experience with the people you know. I then respond with more research/facts/evidence and you respond back with no that isn't true because you say so. Well you can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep and you cannot convince a person with facts if they are not interested in facts.
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Again...I've never said your facts weren't true. Perhaps you should work on actually reading what I have written, as this very facet of communication seems to be the largest monkey wrench in the cogs here.

Whatever your dietary decisions are I do hope for you much health. Whatever your opinions are I hope they bring you happiness. But I am getting off this carousel now, as I am prone to motion sickness.
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I'm quite healthy, thanks.

What you seem to be missing is that this "carousel" you're on is being maintained by your refusal to actually read what I am typing. I'm not arguing anything with you about the diet. I agree with you. With proper supplementation, a vegan or vegetatrian diet can be a healthy choice. I never said it wasn't or couldn't be. You, for whatever reason, seem to think that I believe that only meat is good, and that's just something I have never said.

The things I have told you you are wrong about are the assumptions that my statements were directed personally and directly at YBH and her very special case. That's it. And frankly...You're wrong. And you won't find anything in any books to refute that, because it's all right here in this topic...
 
Michael823 said:
Dog hater :(! Just kidding, of course. A Chicken could never replace my dog, never, but I love Kathy's ideas. Dogs may be louder, but they're cuter, smell better (umm... never mind), but they are cuter :)!
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I do NOT hate dogs! LOL. I will admit that I am a wee bit frightened of large dogs, but that's because I was chased home from school by a German Shepard almost every day because the lady who owned him never locked the dang gate on her property. He almost caught me once, and that was one of the most terrifying moments in my life.

I've gotten much better about it, and can now at least be around large dogs without being too afraid. Heck, the first time I met Katie's dogs, I was scared outta my mind! There's just something about a Rottie, GSD, and wolf mix all coming to say "HI! HI! HI! HI! PET ME! PET ME! PET ME! PET ME! PET ME!" at the exact same time. LOL
 
RobbiesCornField said:
I do NOT hate dogs! LOL. I will admit that I am a wee bit frightened of large dogs, but that's because I was chased home from school by a German Shepard almost every day because the lady who owned him never locked the dang gate on her property. He almost caught me once, and that was one of the most terrifying moments in my life.

I've gotten much better about it, and can now at least be around large dogs without being too afraid. Heck, the first time I met Katie's dogs, I was scared outta my mind! There's just something about a Rottie, GSD, and wolf mix all coming to say "HI! HI! HI! HI! PET ME! PET ME! PET ME! PET ME! PET ME!" at the exact same time. LOL
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when I did grooming, in most cases I preferred doing a large dog as opposed to a small one. Not in terms of work, but in terms of dealing with their personalities. The little dogs were usually more neurotic and bitey than the large ones which usually stood on the table without too much grief. The pit bulls, newfies, great pyrenees, malamutes, etc... were in general much more well behaved than the chih's, pom's, and terriers. I was never bitten by a large dog, but many times gnawed on by the little guys.
 
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I'd never have a little dog with my kids. They're used to my pyre/St. Bernard, who is pretty much a "Baby Huey" except toward the Fed Ex and meter reader guys.
 
RobbiesCornField said:
I do NOT hate dogs! LOL. I will admit that I am a wee bit frightened of large dogs, but that's because I was chased home from school by a German Shepard almost every day because the lady who owned him never locked the dang gate on her property. He almost caught me once, and that was one of the most terrifying moments in my life.
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Do you think that in reality a German Shepherd could easily catch a person and the dog was just having a laugh with you..... Like it sat there and though, 'Look here's that kid, lets make him run again'.... LOL
 
Ty, I am going to let my references speak for themselves. If you feel they prove you correct then I'm sure you will be happy to let them speak for themselves as well.

And the book does not say that with proper supplementation, it says with proper *planning*. Although yes it is a nutrition book (it is designed as a college text for people going into nutrition in a clinical setting so they list all the possibilities), they would be wrong when talking about *any* diet to claim that supplementation is never needed, and in the name of full disclosure I posted all of the provided info regarding possible problems associated with a vegetarian diet, although except in the case of infants who are switching to solid foods and for a time have a limited diet while they are still learning to chew and for pregnant women, the book almost always discusses that food options are available not that supplements are needed. In the case of infants switching to solid foods, it is recommended across the board that they eat fortified infant cereal, it is not just recommended to vegetarian infants. The same with pregnant women prenatal supplementation is universally recommended, it is not solely recommended to vegetarian moms to be.

To let the book speak for itself I will give this quote one more time, this is given as the wrap up just before the chapter quiz, and is the conclusion for that section

"Quite simply, the negative health aspects of any diet, reflect poor diet planning. Careful attention to energy intake and specific problem nutrients can ensure adequacy." p212-213"
 
Dinah said:
Ty, we already had our Panda porn threat last night, so I am really done with this argument. there is no longer a reason to argue that point. I have enough confidence in what I say to not have to continue to argue this with you.
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Sounded kind of arguementative to me.
 
dave partington said:
Sounded kind of arguementative to me.
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Yeah.

A few cites sprinkled in a conversation are OK. And it is OK to have debates, they are kind of fun. But unless you are in court, you do not need to cite everything; and more than that, even if one IS in court, one speaks with an eye toward persuasion, not simply beating one's opponent senseless with books. Facts are the backbone of an argument, but delivery can win you or lose you your debate.

If we were all sitting around in a living room and talking this subject out, we would use courtesy, humor, and most likely be friendly with the give and take that personal interaction can bring.

For some reason this thread escalates at times, becoming a pulsing, palpable blob of earnest debate, losing the pleasure of true persuasion. Let's pretend we were in each others living room.
 
I took the express route to get here. I just watched the video in post #1 skipped past tyflier and Dinah and came straight here.

The reason cows have so many stomachs and produce so much waste is that cellulose is very hard to digest.

Now back to the previously scheduled debate. Don’t put your feet on Lucillle’s furniture.
 
I just figured out how to unsubscribe from the thread so now I am relieved to be able to ignore it and move on. I am still learning the controls of this forum, most of my previous experiences have been on message boards so these control are a bit different for me.
 
Dinah said:
Ty, I am going to let my references speak for themselves. If you feel they prove you correct then I'm sure you will be happy to let them speak for themselves as well.

And the book does not say that with proper supplementation, it says with proper *planning*. Although yes it is a nutrition book (it is designed as a college text for people going into nutrition in a clinical setting so they list all the possibilities), they would be wrong when talking about *any* diet to claim that supplementation is never needed, and in the name of full disclosure I posted all of the provided info regarding possible problems associated with a vegetarian diet, although except in the case of infants who are switching to solid foods and for a time have a limited diet while they are still learning to chew and for pregnant women, the book almost always discusses that food options are available not that supplements are needed. In the case of infants switching to solid foods, it is recommended across the board that they eat fortified infant cereal, it is not just recommended to vegetarian infants. The same with pregnant women prenatal supplementation is universally recommended, it is not solely recommended to vegetarian moms to be.

To let the book speak for itself I will give this quote one more time, this is given as the wrap up just before the chapter quiz, and is the conclusion for that section

"Quite simply, the negative health aspects of any diet, reflect poor diet planning. Careful attention to energy intake and specific problem nutrients can ensure adequacy." p212-213"
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Just to remind you, Dinah, tofu and soy paste are man-processed "food" items that cannot be digested efficiently and are nkown to contain toxins that can be very damaging when ingested raw. So it's a "supplement".

Vitams and "herbal remediers" are man-made concoctions that are designed to replace missing nutrients from a diet.

Medicinal supplements such as iron and potassium are also man-made supplements.

As I've said several times throughout this discourse, I am well aware that a vegetarian diet can be healthy if one properly prepares the diet. I have also noted and accepted that my opinion that a "majority" of vegans and vegetarians need supplementation may be skewed by personal experiences with less-than-healthy vegans and vegetarians. I've also said that I believe your data sources, agree with your data sources and accept your data sources. I accept fully that my use of the term "majority" would be a bit exaggerated. I accept that it isn't a "majority" that need supplements...just a wide variety. What else are you trying to prove here? :shrugs:

What else do you want? You want an engraved plaque that congratulates you for being much more interested in reading a nutrition text book than I am? Or would you rather drop it, recognize that I never called you or your data into question, drop the whole ridiculous assumptions that I was "insulting" YBH, and move on with our lives?

At this point the choice is yours. I couldn't care less about the "debate". I just don't like people mixing my words around and pretending I said things I've never said. And I will continue to come and reiterate what i actually wrote vs. what you THINK I wrote, so long as you keep grossly misinterpreting and misunderstanding what I've written...
 
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