Some People... (rant!)

[yellowbellyhippy]

I'm sorry, YBH, but nowhere in his post did I see a direct mention of YOU. He was mentioning vegans he has SEEN. And for the most part, I have to agree with him. Many many vegans and vegetarians I've seen (my aunt included) are skinnier than a railroad tie and just plain not healthy looking. However, I did work with a vegan woman at one restaurant who was VERY healthy looking. She was probably healthier than me. There's a difference between being vegan/vegetarian and doing it properly, as you and my friend apparently did.

Yet, Im the only vegan here and those words were, I felt, sterotyping.

 

[Lucille]

Yet, Im the only vegan here and those words were, I felt, sterotyping.

We should not be afraid to share with each other our observations; it is only out of freely shared information that we can find what is true for us.

I'm one of the few attorneys here, it doesn't bother me when people post lawyer jokes, in fact I enjoy them.

Be more confident- you are not a target, let people say what they see, be part of a dialogue.

 

[Dinah]

I don't think it's something that can be dismissed as "false" so easily.

I am not asking you to believe me. I cited my source which is more than almost anyone else here has done. Whether you consider it valid or accurate is entirely up to you. I provided enough information regarding my source for you to be able to look into it yourself. However, I am standing by my statement that according to nutritional texts, a vegetarian diet can be completely balanced and healthy (for all but rare circumstances), and the argument to which I was responding, which claimed that there would be a mass die off in our population due to nutritional deficiencies if meat were eliminated as a food source is false, again according to the nutritional textbook. I was not in any way trying to call out that person or their credibility. I even stated that it is a very common misconception. One that I am sure many people hold without realizing it is false. That is called an honest mistake, and I was just trying to clear up what I saw to be misinformation with verifiable information.

So incase anyone is interested or Missed it my source is "Understanding Nutrition" 10th Edition By Ellie Whitney and Sharon Rady Rolfes P 208-213.

That being said I agree those who are underweight or those who do not meet what in nutrition is called their RDI should be educated about the proper ways of reaching their nutritional goals.

If anyone is interested in finding out about their nutritional intake There is a very good food tracker http://www.mypyramidtracker.gov/ You put in what you eat and it breaks it down by calories, fiber, sodium, all the individual vitamins, minerals, etc. We used it in my nutrition class and it was great if that interests you.

 

[Lucille]

Dinah I appreciate your cite and food tracker.
I think there is a dual conversation here; one about food and one about us. I am interested in the food aspects, I always like to hear about how others live.

And about us? We're a community. We don't always have to agree.

As long as y'all do what old married couples do: No matter what the disagreements and goings on, they give each other a hug before bedtime to reinforce that the relationship goes beyond small differences of opinion.

 

[Dinah]

Lucille, I know I am new and not many people know me but I am not upset or angry or even frustrated. Mostly because I am new I wanted to clear up that whether you believe me and my source or not is up to you, and I especially wanted to clear up that I would never even consider calling a statement by somebody false in a way that is mean spirited. In my last post I wanted to make sure that it was not over looked that a) I had a source to back up my claim b) that I did not think the original claim that I called false was intended by the original poster to be a lie, just that it was a common misconception.

 

[Lucille]

Lucille, I know I am new and not many people know me but I am not upset or angry or even frustrated. Mostly because I am new I wanted to clear up that whether you believe me and my source or not is up to you, and I especially wanted to clear up that I would never even consider calling a statement by somebody false in a way that is mean spirited. In my last post I wanted to make sure that it was not over looked that a) I had a source to back up my claim b) that I did not think the original claim that I called false was intended by the original poster to be a lie, just that it was a common misconception.

I don't think you are mean spirited at all, and I'm glad you posted your cites.

That food tracker thing though, I stayed home today on account of there was snow in Houston and ate a lot of junk food today, I'd be afraid to see what the tracker would say....:roflmao:

 

[Dinah]

The tracker is cool, because you can track everyday and it will give you a break down both daily and your averages for however long you do it for. I had to do it for a whole semester for my class. The pro's are that you can really learn a lot about the food you eat, and your nutritional needs, the bad side is that it is just a computer program so it is BRUTALLY honest with you. After a road trip that included an obscene amount of road food I had to actually face the bad news in black and white with some truly ugly numbers :rofl:.

 

[requin]

I am not asking you to believe me. I cited my source which is more than almost anyone else here has done. Whether you consider it valid or accurate is entirely up to you. I provided enough information regarding my source for you to be able to look into it yourself.

Where did I say anything about you not citing your source, or that it was invalid or inaccurate? I'm just offering another perspective and I even specifically said that it was my opinion. The fact of the matter is that no two humans are exactly the same, and this includes how our bodies process the foods we eat. Not everyone will do well on a vegetarian diet, and not everyone will do well eating meat. All I'm saying is that there are multiple factors and variables to consider when it comes to how healthy it is to eat a vegetarian diet and it's not productive to make blanket statements either way.

 

[Michael823]

One of my best friends has a brother who is now vegan. He has supposedly become fairly frail, and to me, I feel like it's more of a trend for him to be vegan in the first place (but I'm sure he's the exception, no disrespect to vegans). He's the type that smokes a lot of... yet be very critical of unhealthy eating.
Whereas my friend himself (not a vegan), is highly educated on nutrition, and is in better shape than anyone I know (not because he's not vegan, but because he's educated about what works for him).

The key is being educated about all nutrition (which I must say, I am not). My friend may eat meat, animal byproducts, but he is quite healthy due to his exercise regiments, and knowledge of nutrition. Whereas his brother didn't take the necessary time to educate himself on a healthy vegan lifestyle, therefor it has caused him some issues.

I'm sure there are many vegans who are the same about there food, so they stay highly educated on the nutrition it requires to be a vegan. I think that it's great to be a vegan, or a carnivore (however you'd say it), as long as you keep track of what goes into your body. I'm not a "body is temple" type person, because I have yet to find a nutritional plan that works well enough for me to sound so up on my own health. And I do make healthy choices most of the time, but unfortunately I need the calories that whole milk, eggs, and meat provide.

If I didn't have to worry about these things, as many people don't have to worry about gaining weight (as much), I would give a strong consideration to the vegetarian/vegan way of life. I truly mean that.
I would love to not be dependent on meat. And although I do love to eat meat sometimes, I feel like I could give it up if I didn't have to worry about the lost calories (though I'm sure there are vegetarian ways of gaining weight, but again... I wish I had more knowledge of nutrition). Chicken, whole milk, and eggs would be the hardest to give up, but I believe that some of the vegetarian options allow white meat?

Anyways, that's besides my point...

I just know that there are many, many diets and nutritional plans. And many, many people on this earth that don't strictly follow any. Being a vegan is hard work (it sounds), if you truly dedicate yourself to living the lifestyle, while still remaining at top notch health. My hat goes off to those who do.
The same goes for those who eat meat. It's hard work to moderate between tasty and healthy, and many people just choose the try it diet. I for one don't love that an animal dies so I can have nourishment, but that doesn't change the fact that I need to eat. The same for my snakes, who would hurt the rodent population a lot less by eating carrots, but they can't sustain off of that.

My point is... I just typed way too much, and probably never even made a point! Good night folks !

 

[LBoz]

And yet again, a direct insult to me. Btw, Im 5'3 and 116 lbs. I have glowing skin and am very healthy. Even my Dr. said that if more people went vegan he wouldnt have so many patients.

Im very offended by the above statement. My husband is vegan and is 5'10 and 180 lbs.

My children are all in average and normal weight ranges.

That statement was just plain dumb and uneducated.

I'm sorry, YBH, but nowhere in his post did I see a direct mention of YOU. He was mentioning vegans he has SEEN. And for the most part, I have to agree with him. Many many vegans and vegetarians I've seen (my aunt included) are skinnier than a railroad tie and just plain not healthy looking. However, I did work with a vegan woman at one restaurant who was VERY healthy looking. She was probably healthier than me. There's a difference between being vegan/vegetarian and doing it properly, as you and my friend apparently did.

Yet, Im the only vegan here and those words were, I felt, sterotyping.

Hate to break it to you, but it's not all about YOU. You *might* be the only vegan on this thread, but you're not the only one on this forum, and it's pretty ironic that you call us and dumb and uneducated" and then cry that WE'RE being insulting to YOU. Have you read the statement you posted:

All I can say in this thread is that Im vegan and I believe it is the right thing to do for people,the planet and animals. You can make fun of me by your "Im going out for steak tonight" good for you!! I don't care. It's YOU putting that crap in your body. Anyways, the meat eating talk doesn't bother me so trying to get to me isn't working.My diet makes me happy and I feel it's the best thing you can do. End of story!

Yeah, no insults directed at "us" there, right?
I personally couldn't care less what YOU think of MY diet, and stating that I'm having steak for dinner is my business, regardless of what you consider "crap." I also couldn't care less if YOU feel going vegan is the best thing *I* can do. It may be the end of your story, but again, it's not all about you. Relax and consider that these are all just opinions based on different experiences, and realize that no one is targeting you personally.

 

[Michael823]

Come on everyone. We all need food to use for energy, so let's put it to good use with positive energy. Not everyone makes the same dietary decisions, and that's the strength of our individuality.

 

[Dinah]

I'm just offering another perspective and I even specifically said that it was my opinion. The fact of the matter is that no two humans are exactly the same, and this includes how our bodies process the foods we eat. Not everyone will do well on a vegetarian diet, and not everyone will do well eating meat. All I'm saying is that there are multiple factors and variables to consider when it comes to how healthy it is to eat a vegetarian diet and it's not productive to make blanket statements either way.

I am guessing the lack of proper tone and facial cues are making my statements somehow lost in translation. As I said in my post " I am not asking you to believe me." and "I provided enough information regarding my source for you to be able to look into it yourself." The message I am trying to convey here is that I am not trying to make you agree with me, I am just trying to provide the information that I have, so that other people can take that information weigh it for themselves and make their own personal decisions. I am trying to word my posts so that I do not come across as angry, frustrated, attacking, etc because I am none of those things. Really!

I did not ever say that everyone would always do well eating a vegetarian diet. In fact I did say at least twice that there are certian conditions/circumstances where an all vegetarian diet would not be the most appropriate. In post 90 I said (sorry I only know how to quote one post at a time) "It is true that some people can have rare conditions that make proper absorption difficult and they may need supplements or perhaps some meat." and again in post 103 "a vegetarian diet can be completely balanced and healthy (for all but rare circumstances)" So I have to be honest I am quite confussed as to why you think I am making blanket statements about vegetarians diets somehow always being good for everyone.

I did say that the claim by tyflier in post 89

"One good thing that would come of it...our global population density would decrease dramatically because quite frankly, we, as omnivorous creatures, simply cannot and will not thrive on a vegetarian diet without supplemental nutritional medication. So if the entire world became vegetarian and/or vegan overnight, we would see a DRASTIC reduction in global population due to malnutrition, immuno-compromise diseases, traumatic injury due to calcium and protein deficiencies, and a HUGE increase in the infant mortality rate."

is false according to the nutrition book which makes it very clear that most of the time a properly balanced vegetarian diet is healthy and can actually have a great many benefits.

To be honest I see tyfliers post to be of an unfounded/blanket statement than anything that I have said. But also as I said already, I really do not think that ty was attempting to be misleading, in any way (see post 105 reason b).

In regards to your last statement about "there are multiple factors and variables to consider when it comes to how healthy it is to eat a vegetarian diet " I agree. Here are some of them to consider. According to the same source listed before. I am only hoping to inform/counter some of the previous statements by everyone that somehow being a vegetarian is unhealthy, and put out some of the variables for people to consider. I am not saying these are the only variables just these are the facts that I have

pro's
"In general vegetarians maintain a healthier body weight than non vegetarians." p209
"Vegetarians tend to have lower blood pressure and lower rates of hypertensions than non begetarians." p209
"The incidence of heart disease and related deaths is much lower for vegetarians than for non vegetarians." p209
"Vegetarians have a significantly lower rate of cancer than the general population." p209
"Even when their intake of energy, protien, carbohydrates, total fat, saturated fat, unsaturated fat, alcohol, and fiber are the same, people eating meals based on tofu have lower blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels than those eating meat." p209
And last but not least "well planned vegetarian diets offer sound nutrition and health benefits" p209

cons
Due to the way the book is set up the cons are not as easily quoted in snippets like I did above. So many apologies but you will all have to make do with me summing them up

The book is most concerned with adequate Iron, calcium, vitamin D, B12 and Zinc, although the books straight up says that these things can all be acquired in sufficient quantities by eating legumes, nuts, seeds, peanut butter, tempeh, tofu, soy milk, and dark green vegetable. p209

Special consideration is given in the book to sensitive times in development.
pregnancy is the first mentioned and the book in that case the worry is about iron energy (kcals). Most pregnant women are given vitamins to take because even meat eating women typically do not have enough iron during pregnancy, and the book feels that is adequate for vegetarian moms to be as well. plus many things provide iron other than meat. p211
Infancy is the next sensitive time, and the book clearly states that a well nourished vegetarian mother provides plenty of nutrition to her nursing baby, and that Soy baby formula also provides appropriate nutrition to babies for mom's who choose that route. p211-212
Childhood/Adolescence is the third sensitive time, the book says that a well planned vegetarian diet can easily provide adequate nutrition intakes for growing children, still I put this in con because obviously when you have a growing child Well Planned cannot be stressed enough. They also say that vegetarian children's growth is similar to that of their non vegetarian peers. p.212

They do say that babies who are switching to solid foods in a vegan family, may grow more slowly due to getting full to soon(because these types of foods tend to be more filling), although even there they list ways to prevent that and the types of more energy dense foods avocado as well as continuing them on infant cereals and soy formula to name just few of the ways to overcome this potential con and to help increase the number of calories they are consuming while they grow.p212

It says that vegan children are sometimes shorter/lighter than their peers due to again getting full before enough calories are consumed, and that vegans can have lower bone density, however they also say that with proper diet planning including fortified cereals, etc the nutritional needs of a child can be meet.p212

The wrap up sentences of the section say "Quite simply, the negative health aspects of any diet (meat/vegetarian/vegan are the ones being addressed), reflect poor diet planning. Careful attention to energy intake and specific problem nutrients can ensure adequacy." p212-213

Now please do not think that just because I provided said info that I am advocating for everyone to become vegetarian. Me and my family eat meat. I am interested in this subject on a facts/intellectual basis. I am not here to tell other people that what they choose to do with their lives is any of my business. But at the same time I am pesky about proper information. And it does bother me to see people saying that we will suffer huge population decreases if people stop eating meat as though it is just not possible to get proper nutrition without meat because whether you choose to be vegetarian or not for most people it can be a very health dietary option.

 

[requin]

I think you're the one misinterpreting me. I never said that veganism and vegetarianism are inherently unhealthy, nor did I mean to imply that you were the one making blanket statements, so I'm sorry about that, it was a side thought about some other posts in this thread. I just think that in this particular debate, blanket statements get thrown around a lot and there is a lot of misinformation. I also didn't say that you said everyone will do well on a vegetarian diet, and for that matter I didn't say that everyone would do poorly on a vegetarian diet. I am just saying that it's NOT a misconception that many people cannot thrive on a vegetarian diet.

I do believe that if the world went vegetarian or vegan, a LOT of people probably would die, and I disagree with your statement that it's "rare" for people to have trouble absorbing certain nutrients from plants. It's not nearly as rare as people seem to think it is and I do agree with tyflier that the world's population would decrease as a result of that. Even in a perfect world where everyone had the exact same vegan-friendly digestive enzymes, many many people would die because of a lack of information about how to incorporate all the necessary nutrients into a vegetarian or vegan diet. I mean really...tens of thousands of people die of malnutrition every day as it is and it seems logical to me that removing those dietary staples would cause even more deaths.

Yes, many vegans/vegetarians are malnourished because they're uneducated about how to make food choices, and yes, many of them are in excellent health because they've done their research. But some of them know what to eat to stay healthy and make sure they get the right nutrients and they still get sick because they don't have the proper enzymes to absorb those nutrients from a non-meat or dairy source, which is the ONLY point I've been trying to make.

I never said that you couldn't get those nutrients from non-animal sources; I said that some people can't process them efficiently and that their health would suffer as a result. I have done plenty of research on this subject (I was a vegetarian for a couple years), I've seen multiple nutritionists, and I'm majoring in biology. I'm not just randomly making things up, nor am I clueless about the subject which you seem to be implying by continually telling me to look it up for myself. It's common knowledge that people in different cultures have differing abilities to digest certain foods; again I will mention the high rate of lactose intolerance in many Asian (and African) countries. I could type up everything my textbooks say about this too, but I don't have time for that. I didn't post to start a debate over semantics and nitpicking. Like I said, I was only offering another perspective.

Trust me, I have no room to judge anyone else's dietary choices and I'm not sure why you're trying to prove to me that a vegetarian diet can be beneficial, because I already acknowledged that. I eat meat now but I have nothing against people who don't as long as they don't preach to me. I feel like a broken record, so I will wrap this up by saying that I agree with Michael823 that our individuality in everything from our choice of clothes to our diets is what makes life fun and interesting.

 

[KJUN]

I'm one of the few attorneys here, it doesn't bother me when people post lawyer jokes, in fact I enjoy them.

That's right, Lucille. Keep telling yourself that they are jokes.

:dgrin::dgrin::dgrin:

 

[tyflier]

And yet again, a direct insult to me. Btw, Im 5'3 and 116 lbs. I have glowing skin and am very healthy. Even my Dr. said that if more people went vegan he wouldnt have so many patients.

Im very offended by the above statement. My husband is vegan and is 5'10 and 180 lbs.

My children are all in average and normal weight ranges.

That statement was just plain dumb and uneducated.

How is what I said a "direct insult" to you? I've never met you, don't know, never seen you outside of a very tiny avatar picture, and have no frame of referance upon which to draw you as an unhealthy individual. I said of the all the vegans and vegetarians that I know...none of them are healthy.

Correct me if I'm wrong but...we've never met, right? So...we DO NOT know each other, right? So...you would than NOT be included amongst the vegans and vegetarians I know. So...no insult to you. Not even remotely directed towards you. In fact the only comment I've made that directly referanced you was when I asked what you think would happen if everyone suddenly became vegan and we all needed to rely on agriculture for a global nutrition supply. That's not an insult either...it's a question.

Perhaps if you are going to takwe every referance to vegans and or vegetarians to heart, and treat them as a personal insult you should reconsider your willingness to participate in a discussion about the pros and cons of vegetarianism and people's personal opinions of the matter. :shrugs:

I certainly don't open the "anti-smoker" and "anti-tattoo" threads that I see. Why? Because I know they will piss me off, so why bother?

 

[tyflier]

I haven't had a problem. Been the same weight for about 16 years.

How old are you? How is it "healthy" to maintain the same body we4ight from early teens to early 30s? Your bone density *should* be increasing. Your musculature *should* be developing. Your body mass *should* be maturing. Bones and muscles weigh a lot. They develop in the mid to late teenage years and into your 20s. You, as a human being, aer supposed to gain weight during this maturation process...

 

[tyflier]

Yet, Im the only vegan here and those words were, I felt, sterotyping.

It can't be a "stereotype" when I am specifically and directly referanceing people I have seen and met. And since I specifically addressed the vegans and vegetarians that I, personally, have met and know throughout my life, it's NOT a stereotype...it's an observation. And it has nothing to do with you unless we have met and known each other and I simply don't remember it. But that is incredibly unlikely, now, ain't it?

It also tends to make it not "dumb and uneducated"(which, BTW, is a direct insult. Irony, much?), it is an observation based on a biased and limited sampling...which I admitted was likely skewed...

 

[Dinah]

Before you tell YBH to gain weight we should consider she said she is 5'3' and 116 lbs

according to NIH her BMI is 20.5 which is in the Normal weight category

Underweight = <18.5
Normal weight = 18.5-24.9
Overweight = 25-29.9
Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater

http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/

 

[tyflier]

Lucille, I know I am new and not many people know me but I am not upset or angry or even frustrated. Mostly because I am new I wanted to clear up that whether you believe me and my source or not is up to you, and I especially wanted to clear up that I would never even consider calling a statement by somebody false in a way that is mean spirited. In my last post I wanted to make sure that it was not over looked that a) I had a source to back up my claim b) that I did not think the original claim that I called false was intended by the original poster to be a lie, just that it was a common misconception.

I believe you. I didn't bother looking up your source. I'll take your word for it, as I can readily admit I know nothing of advanced nutrition and frankly...I don't care. My statements were made based on personal observations. Wrong or right in terms of potential nutrition is not the point was making. The point I was making is that all of the vegans and vegetarians I know and have met are skinny, grey, pale, and incredibly unhealthy. So if what you say is true, and I've no reason to doubt you, than someone needs to seriously educate them. And they are scattered across the US from Maine to Cali and back...

 

[Dinah]

I believe you. I didn't bother looking up your source. I'll take your word for it, as I can readily admit I know nothing of advanced nutrition and frankly...I don't care. My statements were made based on personal observations. Wrong or right in terms of potential nutrition is not the point was making. The point I was making is that all of the vegans and vegetarians I know and have met are skinny, grey, pale, and incredibly unhealthy. So if what you say is true, and I've no reason to doubt you, than someone needs to seriously educate them. And they are scattered across the US from Maine to Cali and back...

I was just wanting to make sure that nobody was offended or confused by my intent because I am new so nobody knows my personality yet and because without facial expressions, voice tone, etc sometimes things that are not meant to be mean can sound that way.