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Some People... (rant!)

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Vegans/Vegetarians miss an important point. Crop fields are biological wastelands. They aren't shared with any biodiversity other than what is best for the crop's growth. Cattle/gotas/etc are often raised (1) where crops wouldn't grow well at all and (2) so that the fields are shared with a higher diversity (such as plant and animal life). To me, vegans are just selfish because they don't want to share the land that produces THEIR food with any "other" wildlife species. :(
 
So PETA sneaks into houses and releases dogs at night? I agree that they're an utterly useless organization, filled to the brim with idiots, but I would really love for you to show me where they go and let dogs run free from homes/shelters.

Did I say that? No. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened somewhere. Actually, a lot of them put animals to sleep since it would be "better than them spending time in a shelter".

PETA was successful in placing a ban on slaughtering horses. As sad as it sounds, a lot of the horses going to slaughter were considered "unwanted" horses- unmanageable, elderly, etc. Now that there is no longer a place for these horses to go, unless they go illegally to Mexico, and also due to the terrible horse economy that exists currently, people are turning them loose- into the countryside, into the mountains, wherever they live. Sure, PETA's not doing it themselves, but this is an effect of one of their half-baked "let's help the animals" schemes- some horses are being made to exist without human contact. Take away the disposal system for horses, and people are left with a bunch of "problem" horses- who can't forsee the results of that?
 
Did I say that? No.

Nope, you just heavily implied it.

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened somewhere. Actually, a lot of them put animals to sleep since it would be "better than them spending time in a shelter".

I know that. www.petakillsanimals.com

PETA was successful in placing a ban on slaughtering horses. As sad as it sounds, a lot of the horses going to slaughter were considered "unwanted" horses- unmanageable, elderly, etc. Now that there is no longer a place for these horses to go, unless they go illegally to Mexico, and also due to the terrible horse economy that exists currently, people are turning them loose- into the countryside, into the mountains, wherever they live. Sure, PETA's not doing it themselves, but this is an effect of one of their half-baked "let's help the animals" schemes- some horses are being made to exist without human contact. Take away the disposal system for horses, and people are left with a bunch of "problem" horses- who can't forsee the results of that?

I don't know what this has to do with anything. I never said PETA wasn't half-baked, I never said they've ever done ANYONE a lick of good. I just pointed out that "everyone should let their doggies run free" as you discussed is not and has never been part of their purpose.
 
Ok, wow. You need to step back and calm down. I am not here to argue with you about this. For the most part, I agree with you. That's fantastic that you already know that; I wish more people did. What I was TRYING to say was that PETA may say that is not part of their purpose, but it's what they would like. They think that the less human interaction animals have with people, the better, which you probably already know. I was talking about this exact topic with some people the other day, and it was common knowledge among all of us that PETA wants people to no longer keep their pets. I've even had professors talk about that. The reason I brought up slaughter horses is because PETA gets their way when people start turning their horses loose. The horses are no longer being "exploited" once they are out of human care. Sure, they get eaten by other animals and hit by cars, but at least they are happy, right?
 
Ok, wow. You need to step back and calm down.

I'm fine, thanks.

I was talking about this exact topic with some people the other day, and it was common knowledge among all of us that PETA wants people to no longer keep their pets.

Again, a misunderstanding of the organization and it's goals. They want, eventually, for the concept of pet ownership to be void. They view the ownership of pets in the mean time as a necessary evil, since they fully acknowledge that domestic animals cannot survive without humans. And that is what they view as such a sin: manipulating animals to serve our purposes and be dependent upon us. Until the last domestic animal dies out, they will continue to attempt to eliminate animal ownership through measures such as spay/neuter laws, breed specific legislation, and psuedo "welfare" laws that limit the rights of owners, as well as encouraging the public to believe that the only way to responsible obtain/own a dog, is to rescue it from a shelter.To believe that part of their agenda is to free packs of domestic dogs into the wilderness is to not understand the organization or the animal rights philosophy behind it. I don't doubt that some idiot has gone around opening kennel doors at some point or another, however, this is not a part of what fundamentally defines the animal rights movement.

Know thine enemy.
 
I don't doubt that some idiot has gone around opening kennel doors at some point or another, however, this is not a part of what fundamentally defines the animal rights movement.

Know thine enemy.

I agree with you as to what they say defines them; I just don't think they necessarily stick to it.

Ah well. Agree to disagree.
 
I think this could be argued against with a high rate of success....

Of all the issues plaguing the Earth... factory farming is not the most damaging.


Agreed but when you try to discuss a topic and the other one in the discussion is not open to actual accounts of situations, and true facts then the discussion becomes an agrument and goes no where, and it is easier to agree to disagree at that point
 
Humans do make the most damage.....by factory farming!

I would really like to know what you think would happen if we all woke up tomorrow and decided to be vegan..you know..."to save the planet"?

If you think "factory farming" for meat products takes a toll on the environment, I strongly suggest you make a trip(and bring the kids) to an agriculture facility...commercial agriculture, and just take a look at the waste, runoff, chemical mis-treatment, and damge done by vegetable farming.

When you do this, try to remember that without cattle and hogs, we have no natural fertilizers, so ALL fertilization, nutrient replenishment, and growth products will ALL be chemical. Also try to remember that it takes more land to grow the same amount of food organically, which undoubtedly means theat organic farming for mass consumption will cease to exist...in it's entirety. Than try to remember that while cows and pigs might urinate and defecate in the water and soil...it takes FAR more acreage to raise sustainable crops already. Imagine how it would be if the world population became vegan.

One good thing that would come of it...our global population density would decrease dramatically because quite frankly, we, as omnivorous creatures, simply cannot and will not thrive on a vegetarian diet without supplemental nutritional medication. So if the entire world became vegetarian and/or vegan overnight, we would see a DRASTIC reduction in global population due to malnutrition, immuno-compromise diseases, traumatic injury due to calcium and protein deficiencies, and a HUGE increase in the infant mortality rate. So THAT would be beneficial to the environment, at least...:roflmao:
 
One good thing that would come of it...our global population density would decrease dramatically because quite frankly, we, as omnivorous creatures, simply cannot and will not thrive on a vegetarian diet without supplemental nutritional medication. So if the entire world became vegetarian and/or vegan overnight, we would see a DRASTIC reduction in global population due to malnutrition, immuno-compromise diseases, traumatic injury due to calcium and protein deficiencies, and a HUGE increase in the infant mortality rate. So THAT would be beneficial to the environment, at least...:roflmao:

I am not a nutritionist, but I did take nutrition (for students going into the medical field) and have discussed diet, etc extensively with my kids pediatrician, because my youngest cannot have dairy. From everything I have heard/read this is not true. It is true that some people can have rare conditions that make proper absorption difficult and they may need supplements or perhaps some meat. However according to my textbook "Understanding Nutrition" 10th Edition By Ellie Whitney and Sharon Rady Rolfes P 208-213 A vegetarian diet with proper knowledge and planning can and is a healthy and adequate diet. In fact there are several benefits to it that are pointed out on pages 208-209

I am not trying to take sides my family personally does consume some meat but the idea that a lot of people would suffer from malnutrition or even calcium/protein deficiencies that is false. It is true that it is a common misconception , but it is still false.
 
I don't think it's something that can be dismissed as "false" so easily. The best argument I've heard as far as why some people can be healthy eating meat-free diets and others cannot, is the example of moving an animal that is native to one continent to another continent across the world and expecting it to survive. Even if you could somehow account for the climate change, an animal from Australia for example most likely could not live in the wild in North America because it probably wouldn't be accustomed to eating North American food sources nor would it likely be equipped to digest them properly. The animal would grow weaker, get sick, and eventually die.

It's similar for people...different cultures have grown accustomed to eating different types of food based on the regional availability of those foods, cultural differences, and so on. There are many cultures (Asian cultures specifically, iirc) that have a high incidence of adults who are lactose intolerant, for example - that's not just a coincidence. In the same vein, some people simply are not able to efficiently absorb certain nutrients, such as iron, from plant sources. If your ancestors relied heavily on meat to get their nutrients, you probably don't have quite the same enzymes as your friend whose ancestors relied more on plant sources for food. Eating a vegetarian diet can be healthier, but I think that studies showing this can be skewed...first off, I'm not sure they can even fully account for heritage like I mentioned above. Also, the typical American meat & potatoes diet isn't unhealthy solely because we eat meat, but because we eat *a lot* more meat than we need to, and because we eat a lot of processed foods, saturated fat, don't exercise enough, etc. (I guess I should put in the disclaimer here that I haven't really read many studies on vegetarian vs. omnivore diets, it's just my opinion.)

I do think it would be in our best interest to put a stop to - or at least cut back on - factory farming of animals, because the system how it is now is a huge source of pollution (not to mention the animal cruelty), but giving up all animal products is not an effective way to make a difference. It's better to make an effort to buy meat that is free-range, organic, etc...because money talks. Unfortunately, I don't see this shift ever happening because many people either can't afford or just aren't willing to spend extra money on the meat they buy. tyflier also made a good point that ALL factory farming, including the mass production of plants for food, has a negative environmental impact. It seems to be kind of a no-win situation.
 
All I have to say to this thread is that ignorance and stubbornness are tearing the world apart seam by seam. If we can all just accept each others views and not impose views onto each other, then everybody could get along so much better. Just accept that everyone is different.

Yes, I admit the RADICAL activists can become annoying, but that's just their way to inform others. It's not gonna hurt anyone. Every time someone tells me that they HATE snakes, yes, I feel VERY different and want to convince them otherwise, but I wouldn't force it upon them nor think of them any differently as a person. :/
 
I am not a nutritionist, but I did take nutrition (for students going into the medical field) and have discussed diet, etc extensively with my kids pediatrician, because my youngest cannot have dairy. From everything I have heard/read this is not true. It is true that some people can have rare conditions that make proper absorption difficult and they may need supplements or perhaps some meat. However according to my textbook "Understanding Nutrition" 10th Edition By Ellie Whitney and Sharon Rady Rolfes P 208-213 A vegetarian diet with proper knowledge and planning can and is a healthy and adequate diet. In fact there are several benefits to it that are pointed out on pages 208-209

I am not trying to take sides my family personally does consume some meat but the idea that a lot of people would suffer from malnutrition or even calcium/protein deficiencies that is false. It is true that it is a common misconception , but it is still false.

Well, than someone needs to educate these 90lb vegans that are 5' 6" tall with pale grey skin how to properly balance their diet. I see too many vegans and vegetarians that look more like crackheads and junkies than healthy, well adjusted, active individuals.

I admit that may very well be a skewed perception based on limited experiences. But I know quite a good number of vegans and vegetarians. I don't know any that are "healthy"...
 
Well, than someone needs to educate these 90lb vegans that are 5' 6" tall with pale grey skin how to properly balance their diet. I see too many vegans and vegetarians that look more like crackheads and junkies than healthy, well adjusted, active individuals.

I admit that may very well be a skewed perception based on limited experiences. But I know quite a good number of vegans and vegetarians. I don't know any that are "healthy"...

And yet again, a direct insult to me. Btw, Im 5'3 and 116 lbs. I have glowing skin and am very healthy. Even my Dr. said that if more people went vegan he wouldnt have so many patients.

Im very offended by the above statement. My husband is vegan and is 5'10 and 180 lbs.

My children are all in average and normal weight ranges.

That statement was just plain dumb and uneducated.
 
The key is getting enough fat in a vegan diet- protein is easy from soy and other tofu products, but fat is hard because vegans don't eat dairy either. I know my parents are thin, but not crackhead thin,lol- however, they do cheat and eat meat sometimes and my dad does dairy though my mom doesn't. I know they both eat some kind of protein bars that are vegan and somehow packed with fat and calories considering, but I too have seen what your talking about and know its hard to eat like that and get the amount of fat needed.
 
The key is getting enough fat in a vegan diet- protein is easy from soy and other tofu products, but fat is hard because vegans don't eat dairy either. I know my parents are thin, but not crackhead thin,lol- however, they do cheat and eat meat sometimes and my dad does dairy though my mom doesn't. I know they both eat some kind of protein bars that are vegan and somehow packed with fat and calories considering, but I too have seen what your talking about and know its hard to eat like that and get the amount of fat needed.

I haven't had a problem. Been the same weight for about 16 years.
 
I think the problem is the 'uneducated' vegetarians and vegans (not in terms of book smarts...but food smarts). If you don't know how to eat a healthy, balanced, and varied diet as a vegetarian/vegan you're going to be unhealthy. I've especially seen this a lot with people who have "newly" become vegetarian and are unsure about what they are doing. YBH obviously is very educated about how to live healthy on a vegan diet, and I'm assuming her children will grow up educated in that respect as well.
 
How do you get your fat? Like I said my parents drink these nasty shakes and eat special bars 2 times a day to ensure they are getting the correct amount of fat and calories in their diet.
 
And yet again, a direct insult to me. Btw, Im 5'3 and 116 lbs. I have glowing skin and am very healthy. Even my Dr. said that if more people went vegan he wouldnt have so many patients.

Im very offended by the above statement. My husband is vegan and is 5'10 and 180 lbs.

My children are all in average and normal weight ranges.

That statement was just plain dumb and uneducated.

I'm sorry, YBH, but nowhere in his post did I see a direct mention of YOU. He was mentioning vegans he has SEEN. And for the most part, I have to agree with him. Many many vegans and vegetarians I've seen (my aunt included) are skinnier than a railroad tie and just plain not healthy looking. However, I did work with a vegan woman at one restaurant who was VERY healthy looking. She was probably healthier than me. There's a difference between being vegan/vegetarian and doing it properly, as you and my friend apparently did.
 
How do you get your fat? Like I said my parents drink these nasty shakes and eat special bars 2 times a day to ensure they are getting the correct amount of fat and calories in their diet.

Nuts, avacados, hemp oil, grape seed oil,flax oil, raw nuts, vegan butters, peanut butter,almond butter, tahini, salad dressings.

Also, I didn't want to mention this but 2 weeks a month I eat all raw foods.
Im not skinny!

I get a physical every year with blood testing just because I like to keep an eye on my thyroid and hormone levels.
 
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